The Aelfinn and the Eelfinn

[Luckers]

Go.

[FarShainMael]

I'm intrigued by the 'light barrier' that people encounter when they enter finnland, or leave it. This barrier appears in both of the twisted redstone doorways, and when the rescue party enters the ToG:

 

He stepped through the doorway. Light flashed, briliant white, blinding. He cursed, squeezing his eyes shut and lowering his ashandarei in what he hoped was a threatening gesture. He blinked and the brightness faded.He was in the centre of a wide room with a triangular opening behind him..

 

They also see this barrier when Mat cuts his way out:

 

He pulled the weapon up the other side, cutting out a large inverse triangle of light. The light seemed to thrum as it washed across him. The Aelfinn had reached the doorway by Thom, but they hissed, shying back from the powerful radiance.

 

The Aelfinn won't or possibly can't pass through this barrier. I'm wondering why it's there. Why would they barricade themselves in like that? Or is it a part of that old treaty?

[didymos]

The Aelfinn won't or possibly can't pass through this barrier. I'm wondering why it's there. Why would they barricade themselves in like that? Or is it a part of that old treaty?

 

Why do you assume it's some barrier they've made intentionally, instead of just what happens when you've got a portal from Finnland to Randland?

[FarShainMael]

The Aelfinn won't or possibly can't pass through this barrier. I'm wondering why it's there. Why would they barricade themselves in like that? Or is it a part of that old treaty?

 

Why do you assume it's some barrier they've made intentionally, instead of just what happens when you've got a portal from Finnland to Randland?

 

Because if it's a 'natural' phenomenon which prevents them from getting out into Randland, why did they set up portals here in the first place? They wouldn't be able to go out and look around, and drink all that lovely emotional nectar.

 

I'm assuming here that they can survive in Randland (at least at night!) because Randlanders can survive in their environment. The two places can't be that dissimilar, not even as much as Earth and Moon.

[Sharaman]

Ive always interpreted it (the Finn cannot influence the world or whatever the RJ quote was) as the Finn preferring not to be in an environment where they have no control of the physics.

If you think about it, the normal Wotworld must be as weird for them as Finnland for humans.

But there's no apparent physical reason why they can't come out - who hanged Mat, for instance?

The white light is something like the Waygate interface - an "airlock" between two places with different physics.

[didymos]

The Aelfinn won't or possibly can't pass through this barrier. I'm wondering why it's there. Why would they barricade themselves in like that? Or is it a part of that old treaty?

 

Why do you assume it's some barrier they've made intentionally, instead of just what happens when you've got a portal from Finnland to Randland?

 

Because if it's a 'natural' phenomenon which prevents them from getting out into Randland, why did they set up portals here in the first place? They wouldn't be able to go out and look around, and drink all that lovely emotional nectar.

 

Yeah, but it can come to them. And it did. So there's a simple, obvious answer. A better question is why in the hell would they themselves make a barrier which harmed them? You even raised it yourself, but you still assume they made it.

[FarShainMael]

Let's put it like this. Suppose you wish to mount an expedition to another planet. Would you choose one on which you can get out of your spaceship, wander around, and chat to the locals (OK, you may need to wear protective clothing, but that's a detail); or one where you cannot leave your spaceship at all, protective clothing or not, but have to wait for the locals to notice you?

[Duskfire]

What was the red and white vapour that came from Mat? I understand that they feed on emotions and whatnot, but red and white isnt something I would normally associate with anything really emotionally. Was red anger, and maybe white pain?

[FarShainMael]

Mat was certainly feeling pain and anger. One of the 'finns talks about blood in the air, and tasting fate itself, so there may be more to it than just emotion.

 

I'd like to know what the 'finns are going to do now. Both their doorways into Randland have been destroyed. Does this invalidate the treaty? Are they going to come out and attack to get their fix of whatever-it-is? A few people have suggested that they are the pointy-tooth people that appeared in the Blight..

[Dakota]

I'd like to know what the 'finns are going to do now. Both their doorways into Randland have been destroyed.

 

At least, the doorways that we know of. I was always under the impression that there could have very well been multiple doorways between the realms, just the ones in Tear, Rhiudian, and the Tower of Ghenji were the only ones we the readers have seen. Does it state for a fact anywhere, ie an interview or supplementary material, that these indeed were the only two doors?

[ImNoBloodyHero]

I don't have my books at work but doesn't Tuon make a mocking reference to "visiting the Foxes who grant wishes under Old Hob's Hill" to Mat? (During their travel with the circus I believe.) She didn't believe it, but Mat recognized the place as something in Hawkwing's homeland.

[Erunion]

Yes, she does when Mat tries to explain things to her near the end of KoD (I think).

"Old Hob" was a euphemism for death in Hawkwing's homeland. The connection between the Aelfinn, and Eelfinn and death is... Interesting.

[Tiinker]

Are they in any way connected to the World of Dreams?

[mossman87]

Are they in any way connected to the World of Dreams?

 

I'm sure they have their place there if there's only one. Or their own World of Dreams off in their own universe, or multiverse, or whatever.

[Sharaman]

Finnland can't be reached from normal TAR - it may have perhaps, have its own reflection.

[Two_Rivers_Tabac]

I'm also intrigued by what may be the actual relationship, or perhaps treaties between the Aelfinn and Eelfinn themselves. As I've said in another forum here, while Mat was berating himself for only stipulating "you foxes" in his non aggression agreement, I very much doubt that the Eelfinn would have had the authority to bind the Aelfinn to such an agreement as well. Anyone any thoughts on that?

[Lironah]

I'd like to know what the 'finns are going to do now. Both their doorways into Randland have been destroyed.

 

At least, the doorways that we know of. I was always under the impression that there could have very well been multiple doorways between the realms, just the ones in Tear, Rhiudian, and the Tower of Ghenji were the only ones we the readers have seen. Does it state for a fact anywhere, ie an interview or supplementary material, that these indeed were the only two doors?

 

There are most certainly more than 'two' doorways. The Tower of Ghenjei itself is the third doorway, and as Birgitte said, it used to be more widely known (and by implication more frequently used) than it is nowadays. The treaties held true for the two doorways only, which is why the Tower of Ghenjei is so much more dangerous to use, though there also seem to be rules regarding the room where agreements are made/questions are asked.

 

As for mention of other doorways, it is implied that there are none, both because Mat's ta'verenness didn't run him into one, and because it had been 'a very long time' since anyone had come through the gateways. Since both of the doorways we know of are accounted for - the one being inaccessible in Rhuidean and the other closed up in Tear's Great Holding for the last thousand years - it is probably safe to assume that the Tower of Ghenjei is the only remaining way in.

 

As for what the 'Finns are going to do...well first of all, the doors were never 'ways in' to Randland. The evidence points to them not being able to go through them at all. Secondly, we can be pretty certain that they don't require humans to feed on for their sustenance. I imagine they'll all go through ta'veren withdrawals for a while and then have to find some other way to get their high.

[Guest spleenmcgeen]

Hello everyone, gotta say I loved TOM. Please be patient with me, as it's been a LONG time since i've read through the series and i'm a little foggy on a lot of details. So if I'm forgetting something, please clue me in and disregard the following rant.

 

First off, has it been confirmed that the land the Aelfinn/Eelfinn reside in is infact another world? I have a theory that it's actually in Shara. As far as I know, none of the lands in tWOT are tropical except for Shara (the land where silk and ivory come from), and Mat described what sounded an awful lot like jungle surrounding the structure. I don't have a clue if they even have a part to play left in the series, TOM certainly ended with alot of closure between Mat and the snakes and foxes, but I just felt it sounded logical given the secretive nature of Shara. And assuming their palace or whatever you wanna call it is power-wrought and indestructible from the outside, we know any force, no matter how large, could wander the halls until they starved, while the snakes and foxes waited them out. That would make it an unwelcome but unassailable landmark in Shara. It could also explain the leather hides that they all apparantly wear.

 

My second topic is not a theory but a question. What happened to the doorway connected to the Stone of Tear? Has that been explained and something i'm forgetting or still a mystery? Thanks everybody I'd appreciate any comments.

[Sharaman]

I'd like to know what the 'finns are going to do now. Both their doorways into Randland have been destroyed.

 

At least, the doorways that we know of. I was always under the impression that there could have very well been multiple doorways between the realms, just the ones in Tear, Rhiudian, and the Tower of Ghenji were the only ones we the readers have seen. Does it state for a fact anywhere, ie an interview or supplementary material, that these indeed were the only two doors?

 

There are most certainly more than 'two' doorways. The Tower of Ghenjei itself is the third doorway, and as Birgitte said, it used to be more widely known (and by implication more frequently used) than it is nowadays. The treaties held true for the two doorways only, which is why the Tower of Ghenjei is so much more dangerous to use, though there also seem to be rules regarding the room where agreements are made/questions are asked.

 

As for mention of other doorways, it is implied that there are none, both because Mat's ta'verenness didn't run him into one, and because it had been 'a very long time' since anyone had come through the gateways. Since both of the doorways we know of are accounted for - the one being inaccessible in Rhuidean and the other closed up in Tear's Great Holding for the last thousand years - it is probably safe to assume that the Tower of Ghenjei is the only remaining way in.

 

As for what the 'Finns are going to do...well first of all, the doors were never 'ways in' to Randland. The evidence points to them not being able to go through them at all. Secondly, we can be pretty certain that they don't require humans to feed on for their sustenance. I imagine they'll all go through ta'veren withdrawals for a while and then have to find some other way to get their high.

Mat was hanged in Rhuidean from the Tree, which implies that they could go out of that door at least.

About the "long time" yes, Mat's own memories, which are pulled from various adventurers, indicates that it has been a long time (unless they were very selective about what they stuffed into his head).

There are two chambers - one for the Eelfs and one for the Aelfs - the descriptions are clearly different.

[FarShainMael]

I'm also intrigued by what may be the actual relationship, or perhaps treaties between the Aelfinn and Eelfinn themselves. As I've said in another forum here, while Mat was berating himself for only stipulating "you foxes" in his non aggression agreement, I very much doubt that the Eelfinn would have had the authority to bind the Aelfinn to such an agreement as well. Anyone any thoughts on that?

 

Or possibly, they chose not to try, just to be difficult..

 

OK, what do we know about these people? They are physically dissimilar, though not so much as to have different numbers of arms and legs, or anything like that. Their realms seem to be independent (having different doorways) but connected through the ToG. They specialise in different responses to visitors, answers to questions or 'gifts'. The Eelfinn charge a price for their gifts, the Aelfinn don't charge for giving answers AFAICS. They are at least as much allies as to share the ToG, though that may be an 'armed truce'. And we know nothing at all about the treaties - who arranged them, when and most of all, why.

 

But they do indeed share the ToG, which suggests very strongly that they have some kind of inter-group arrangement in force. How strong this arrangement is, we don't know. It's entirely possible that the Aelfinn (who did not / could not follow the group out of the Tower) might be annoyed with the Eelfinn for letting strangers roam freely in their domain, and a battle may ensue. This may manifest itself in Randland as the ToG exploding / vanishing off the face of the earth!

[FarShainMael]

Hello everyone, gotta say I loved TOM. Please be patient with me, as it's been a LONG time since i've read through the series and i'm a little foggy on a lot of details. So if I'm forgetting something, please clue me in and disregard the following rant.

 

First off, has it been confirmed that the land the Aelfinn/Eelfinn reside in is infact another world? I have a theory that it's actually in Shara. As far as I know, none of the lands in tWOT are tropical except for Shara (the land where silk and ivory come from), and Mat described what sounded an awful lot like jungle surrounding the structure. I don't have a clue if they even have a part to play left in the series, TOM certainly ended with alot of closure between Mat and the snakes and foxes, but I just felt it sounded logical given the secretive nature of Shara. And assuming their palace or whatever you wanna call it is power-wrought and indestructible from the outside, we know any force, no matter how large, could wander the halls until they starved, while the snakes and foxes waited them out. That would make it an unwelcome but unassailable landmark in Shara. It could also explain the leather hides that they all apparantly wear.

 

Yes, it's another world / place, with different physics:

 

https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_86gnqvzjcs

 

Q: Also, what was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they traveling in time? 

RJ: Not traveling in time. the physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is really bad. You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod (similar to stedding).

 

So it's nowhere on Randworld, or even in Randuniverse!

 

My second topic is not a theory but a question. What happened to the doorway connected to the Stone of Tear? Has that been explained and something i'm forgetting or still a mystery? Thanks everybody I'd appreciate any comments.

 

When Mat and co are fleeing from the Aelfinn, they come to a circular room with the remains of a redstone doorway which has been reduced to rubble. Since Mat was following his luck, it can be assumed that this is what's left of the Tear doorway. We don't know why it was shattered or by whom.

[Duskfire]

Since we dont know of the Finns except through legends regarding feys and faeries and whatnot, its entirely possible that those were the only two doorways, and thats it. Humans will gradually lose contact with them; they were already pretty unknown and it wouldnt surprise me if they now just fade into obscurity so at some point in the fourth age Finns are no longer known. After all, Birgitte was really the only one who knew how to enter the ToG in the first place. Without that sort of knowledge, that may be it. Mat, Thom and Moiraine may be the lats humans to ever see the Finns (this turning anyhow.)

[ImNoBloodyHero]

Since we dont know of the Finns except through legends regarding feys and faeries and whatnot, its entirely possible that those were the only two doorways, and thats it. Humans will gradually lose contact with them; they were already pretty unknown and it wouldnt surprise me if they now just fade into obscurity so at some point in the fourth age Finns are no longer known. After all, Birgitte was really the only one who knew how to enter the ToG in the first place. Without that sort of knowledge, that may be it. Mat, Thom and Moiraine may be the lats humans to ever see the Finns (this turning anyhow.)

 

 

So we lose them over Ages 4-7 and rediscover them in the First Age. That makes some sense.

[hawkinja]

So has it ever been explained why the finns speak the old tongue. I dont know when the randlanders started speaking the common tongue, but surely it was before these gateways were sealed away. So i guess what im wondering is if the old tongue is their native language, or if they learned it from the AoLers who made the treaties. If its the latter why didnt they just switch to the common tongue since they do have the memories of everyone that has ever been their?

[Sharaman]

So has it ever been explained why the finns speak the old tongue. I dont know when the randlanders started speaking the common tongue, but surely it was before these gateways were sealed away. So i guess what im wondering is if the old tongue is their native language, or if they learned it from the AoLers who made the treaties. If its the latter why didnt they just switch to the common tongue since they do have the memories of everyone that has ever been their?

Not their native language(s) - they hiss and bark at each other.

The treaties must have been thrashed out in the OT - a harsh dialect of it.

Mat's memories indicate that they haven't had much contact with humans since a point in history when the OT was still the lingua, rather than common.