Discuss The Seanchan/Fortuona

[AvroChris]

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something [Winter's Heart Ch. 8].

 

Why it matters is Fortuona is a learner and hasn't spent enough time working with the A'Dam, hence the only way she could be collared is if she consciously decides to learn how to channel. Training damane was a hobby for Tuon, Renna and Seta as Suldam did it for a career working almost constantly.

RJ has stated that as of KoD she hasn't worked enough with the power.

 

I know that people have said this, but no one seems to be able to quote chapter and verse.

 

You may be right about the quote. Swore I read it once but I have been searching and not able to locate. Spoke with Luckers about it though and this is what he had to say.

 

I know of no quote, but Tuon would have been tested annually with the a'dam up until she became Empress. In addition, sul'dam are tested till twenty-four--no learner tests positive in that time, so Tuon, who practises as a sul'dam as a hobby definately wouldn't.

 

I actually asked Brandon whether Tuon was still tested based on your PM, and he said that as Empress she can do whatever she wants--i.e. not be tested. She may yet be a sparker.

 

So if Sul'dam are tested till 24 and no learner tests positive in that time, Tuon who does this as a hobby still has four years to go even to reach the point. As for the rest guess we will have to wait and see...

 

Sounds pretty conclusive to me, cheers.

[wvlr2]

I'm curious. Since Elayne made a modified A'dam before - She made it to be 2 parts. Could she change it in other ways? Especially now that she is getting better?

 

Say an A'dam that is reversed? The collered side is the boss side and braclet is the slave? It would be great to see her do that - creating a bunch of them & find the Seanchan store house to swap them out.

 

 

 

 

Side note - can a Sul'dam be stilled?

[Muad Cheade]

Side note - can a Sul'dam be stilled?

You can only be stilled once you have began channeling.

[shaiel]

Side note - can a Sul'dam be stilled?

You can only be stilled once you have began channeling.

just asking.. what happens if a damane is stilled/ burned out from the source?

[Muad Cheade]

Side note - can a Sul'dam be stilled?

You can only be stilled once you have began channeling.

just asking.. what happens if a damane is stilled/ burned out from the source?

She either dies instantly from the shock or she loses the ability to channel and might not be able to be Healed if she was burned out.

[moratcorlm]

I think shaiel may have been asking what happens to the sul'dam. The answer, I think, is probably nothing physically, though it would probably be a traumatic experience due to the sense-connection of the circle. We've seen sul'dam whose damane were killed exhibit those kind of symptoms. And since the sul'dam isn't really channeling, there's nothing to sever. I wonder if damane are harder to shield than they would be unleashed, though, the way channelers in circles are.

[Nooska]

Is that the way the damane end?

Sul'dam are akcowledged as being able to learn to channel. To keep them safe they volountarily undergo a severing (i can't see any ill effects when they haven't actually channeled yet), and they have no leash holders anymore?

[moratcorlm]

How could they be severed from something they've never held?

[Erunion]

moratcorlm makes a very good point. How could the Sul'dam be severed? There is no connection between the Sul'dam and the source, just the potential for a connection. Can you cut potential?

[wvlr2]

moratcorlm makes a very good point. How could the Sul'dam be severed? There is no connection between the Sul'dam and the source, just the potential for a connection. Can you cut potential?

 

Well, if you take a baby animal(puppy, kitten, etc) who has not opened it's eyes. They have the "potential" to see one day, but (yuck) you could remove their eyes and they would never see.

 

So, until we get a definitive answer to the contrairy - severing a sul'dam is certianly a possability.

[Nooska]

Severing has nothing to do with whether you have held the source (at least it is never indicated in the books). Severing has to do with cutting off the access to the source. Said access exists, because thats what allows the Sul'dam to hold the leashes.

A Sparker will makea contact over the connection, a learner can, at any time.

If the connection (to sever) did not exist before actually holding the source, how then do sul'dam differ from any other woman?

[wvlr2]

Severing has nothing to do with whether you have held the source (at least it is never indicated in the books). Severing has to do with cutting off the access to the source. Said access exists, because thats what allows the Sul'dam to hold the leashes.

This backs up my statement.

 

The rest is just a guess or opinion. Regardless it is not backed up by the text.

[Erunion]

This is an interesting point. If (which I am not yet convinced of) you can sever someone who hasn't yet channeled, could you create a channeler free society by severing every child shortly after birth?

 

I don't, however, think that severing is something that can be done to a non-channeler. This is because of the Nynaeve/Moghedien duel way back near the beginning of the series (tSR?) where Nynaeve/Moghedien both try to use "sharpened" shields to cut through the connection to Saidar, because that would permanently sever the other person.

Before we can make a certain decision, however, we would have to see someone actually perform an intentional severing from the severer's POV.

[wvlr2]

This is an interesting point. If (which I am not yet convinced of) you can sever someone who hasn't yet channeled, could you create a channeler free society by severing every child shortly after birth?

 

The paradox would be --- in order to have a channeler free society - you would have to have channelers to sever the potential channelers. Catch 22

[Suttree]

moratcorlm makes a very good point. How could the Sul'dam be severed? There is no connection between the Sul'dam and the source, just the potential for a connection. Can you cut potential?

 

Well, if you take a baby animal(puppy, kitten, etc) who has not opened it's eyes. They have the "potential" to see one day, but (yuck) you could remove their eyes and they would never see.

 

So, until we get a definitive answer to the contrairy - severing a sul'dam is certianly a possability.

 

We have a definitive answer on this one...

 

 

Knife of Dreams tour San Jose, CA 28 October 2005 - Frenzy reporting

 

Frenzy: Can a person who hasn't actively channeled yet be severed or stilled?

RJ: (paraphrased) "No, you have to have something to take away something, so a person has to have an active connection to the Source to be able to have it cut."

[Erunion]

@wvlr2 - Good point!

@Suttree - I thought so. Thanks for finding the reference.

[Fel]

Knife of Dreams tour San Jose, CA 28 October 2005 - Frenzy reporting

 

Frenzy: Can a person who hasn't actively channeled yet be severed or stilled?

RJ: (paraphrased) "No, you have to have something to take away something, so a person has to have an active connection to the Source to be able to have it cut."

this confused me. How did they gentle the men if they had to have an active connection in order to sever them? Did they have men seize saidin and then cut them off? That seems strange. Or, did he mean you have to have used it previously at some point?

[Nooska]

@Suttree, thats as definitive as it gets. I'll stick by my statement that it doesn't make sense in regards to Sul'dam because we then lack a reason they are different from any other (non-channeling) woman in regards to the a'dam.

That said, since its RJ's world, his word is difinitive, so end of discussion afaiac. Interesting thing to speculate on though.

[moratcorlm]

this confused me. How did they gentle the men if they had to have an active connection in order to sever them? Did they have men seize saidin and then cut them off? That seems strange. Or, did he mean you have to have used it previously at some point?

Yes; he meant that you have to be an active channeler (i.e., have held saidar or saidin in the past) to be severed. The Red Ajah can only seek out men who have channeled previously – that's how they're detected, and the reason so few men are gentled. Thom's nephew Owyn, for instance, was a sparker who necessarily channeled, and news of that drew the Reds in. Learner men in this Age would never be gentled, because they'd never find a teacher to show them how to find saidin.

[wvlr2]

Knife of Dreams tour San Jose, CA 28 October 2005 - Frenzy reporting

 

Frenzy: Can a person who hasn't actively channeled yet be severed or stilled?

RJ: (paraphrased) "No, you have to have something to take away something, so a person has to have an active connection to the Source to be able to have it cut."

this confused me. How did they gentle the men if they had to have an active connection in order to sever them? Did they have men seize saidin and then cut them off? That seems strange. Or, did he mean you have to have used it previously at some point?

 

 

For being definitive, this is sure confusing and full of gaps. I wish someone had asked for a little greater clarification.

 

i.e. Since women before could not sense a man channeling - how exactly did this work? How could they be sure which man channeled? (Sure Caddy had a tool, but most did not.)

 

Also, what about them genteling Elias who could not channel. Did they just shoot their gentelling weave at him & hope it worked?

 

 

Also, aren't the Sul'dam using that connection when they use the adam?

If they did not have it, they could not use the adam.

 

So does this mean: Before a Sul'dam used the adam for the first time, they could not be stilled.

 

Or does it mean: Only when a Sul'dam is actively using an adam, they can be stilled.

 

Or does it mean: Only when Sul'dam start "seeing the weaves", they can be stilled.

 

Or does it mean: Only when a Suldam start "sensing another woman who can channel", they can be stilled.

 

Or does it mean: A Sul'dam can never be stilled.

 

 

 

So here we are - back where we started.

[moratcorlm]

i.e. Since women before could not sense a man channeling - how exactly did this work? How could they be sure which man channeled? (Sure Caddy had a tool, but most did not.)

Lots of guesswork.

Week 6 Question: How do the Aes Sedai of the Red Ajah "find" men who can channel?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: We're told throughout the books that the male channelers get goose bumps whenever the females are channeling or embracing the source. However, it is continuously mentioned that the women don't know if the male Asha'man and Rand are embracing or channeling saidin. So how does the Red Ajah and Cadsuane, find Male Channelers and then gentle them?

 

There are various ways that the effects of male channeling can be found, weaves that find the resonance of the residues of saidin. Check in Crossroads of Twilight. They do not detect the actual weaves, though, only the residues left after the weave is released. After that, it becomes a matter of detective work. Though perhaps stalking a leopard might be a better metaphor. As for Cadsuane, she has a few more tools at her disposal than other Aes Sedai, the reason for her extremely high success rate. Check Winter's Heart, and a few earlier mentions, for this one.

In ten years, we have found only six men with the ability. Just twenty-four in the last twenty years.

Also, what about them genteling Elias who could not channel. Did they just shoot their gentelling weave at him & hope it worked?

Probably.

“There are women,” she said slowly, “who would do their best to gentle you if they heard what I just did.” His lungs seemed to freeze; he could not breathe. “I am not accusing you of being able to channel,” she went on, and the ice inside him melted, “or even of being able to learn. An attempt at gentling would not harm you, beyond the rough treatment the Red Ajah would give you before they realized their error.

Or does it mean: A Sul'dam can never be stilled.

Almost certainly this, although it's an interesting question whether a sul'dam actively using an a'dam could be severed. The answer to that question is very likely still no, though. Sul'dam, even those on the brink of learning saidar, who can see the weaves and sense other women who can channel, have not done so.

[Muad Cheade]

For being definitive, this is sure confusing and full of gaps. I wish someone had asked for a little greater clarification.

Not really.

 

i.e. Since women before could not sense a man channeling - how exactly did this work? How could they be sure which man channeled? (Sure Caddy had a tool, but most did not.)

The Aes Sedai use weaves that find the resonance of the residues of saidin. They don't find the weaves themselves, just the residue of them after they have been released, as evidenced in CoT. The rest is simple detective work.

 

Also, what about them genteling Elias who could not channel. Did they just shoot their gentelling weave at him & hope it worked?

They actually didn't gentle him. After he called them Black Ajah, he escaped while killing some Warders. Anyways. They wouldn't have been able to gentle him because 1). He could not channel. 2). Even if he was a learner, he hadn't yet channeled so there was no access to cut him off from.

 

Also, aren't the Sul'dam using that connection when they use the adam?

The sul'dam are channeling through the damane. It is not the sul'dam who embrace the Source, it is the damane. The sul'dam merely control and weave.

 

If they did not have it, they could not use the adam.

To control or be controlled by the a'dam, you must have the ability to channel or learn to.

 

So does this mean: Before a Sul'dam used the adam for the first time, they could not be stilled.

Sul'dam can never be stilled, unless they have begun to channel (like Bethamin and Seta).

 

Or does it mean: Only when a Sul'dam is actively using an adam, they can be stilled.

No. Sul'dam can never channel or be stilled unless they have begun to channel.

 

Or does it mean: Only when Sul'dam start "seeing the weaves", they can be stilled.

No. Seeing weaves only means the sul'dam has been handling damane for an extended period of time and it's easier for them to cross over.

 

Or does it mean: Only when a Suldam start "sensing another woman who can channel", they can be stilled.

No. They still have not channeled.

 

Or does it mean: A Sul'dam can never be stilled.

Yes.

 

So here we are - back where we started.

Not quite.

 

Think of it this way. Sparkers will channel eventually. There is no doubt about it. Learners can go their whole lives without channeling. How can you cut a someone off from something they've used?

 

For example, the reason the Black Towers numbers are so large is because they have found vast numbers of learners who would ordinarily live normal lives because the Red Ajah cannot gentle them.

[SvetSedi]

Almost certainly this, although it's an interesting question whether a sul'dam actively using an a'dam could be severed. The answer to that question is very likely still no, though. Sul'dam, even those on the brink of learning saidar, who can see the weaves and sense other women who can channel, have not done so.

I'm confused now. If they are not actually using their channeling ability, then why can't a stilled or burned out woman use the adam? For that matter, if they do not use it, then why can't a woman with no ability what so ever use the adam?

[Suttree]

Almost certainly this, although it's an interesting question whether a sul'dam actively using an a'dam could be severed. The answer to that question is very likely still no, though. Sul'dam, even those on the brink of learning saidar, who can see the weaves and sense other women who can channel, have not done so.

I'm confused now. If they are not actually using their channeling ability, then why can't a stilled or burned out woman use the adam? For that matter, if they do not use it, then why can't a woman with no ability what so ever use the adam?

 

I would assume the answer is because a "learner" still has the ability to channel at some point while a stilled or burnt out woman does not. The quote below might clear it up a bit.

 

Q: Since sul'dam have abilities normally associated with channelers only, do they also slow?

RJ: No, not unless they actually begin to channel. Slowing is a function of actually channeling. If you have the ability to learn, and you never learn to channel, you are not going to slow. You will age at a normal fashion. Sul'dam are women who can learn, and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

[wvlr2]

Not quite.

 

Think of it this way. Sparkers will channel eventually. There is no doubt about it. Learners can go their whole lives without channeling. How can you cut a someone off from something they've used?

 

For example, the reason the Black Towers numbers are so large is because they have found vast numbers of learners who would ordinarily live normal lives because the Red Ajah cannot gentle them.

So I can't cut the eyes from puppies that have never used them?

 

If the Sul'dam are not using the "ability" then how do they use the adam. It's a Catch 22 again.