Elayne's Arc

[waffle]

Well the Plan was actually Brilliant.

 

I agree to an extent. It was a clever plan. I think it was the first time i was actually a little impressed by her. Then the other darkfriends strolled in and i remembered that she didn´t bring any backup. If she had given it more thought it could have been brilliant.

 

 

To the people who say that Elayne is similar to Mat. That´s the difference between them in my opinion. Mat is considered to be foolhardy and whatever, but his plan to stop the gholam wasn´t just rushing him head on. He thought about it. Sought help. Showed patience.

[DPT24]

I used to like Elayne, but the last few books have been kinda tough. Min's viewing has made her wreckless, and she doesn't even regret how much trouble her actions have caused! The impersonating a Forsaken wasn't a bad idea, but Elayne is pregnant and has been having issues channelling, that's not the best time to try something like that. Her anger at Perrin is believeable, but very grating. I mean, Perrin's the one major leader in Andor besides Mat and Deylin who won't try and take her throne. Especially with her plan with Carahiem, she's going to need people she can trust to not be plotting for her throne. Plus, war with the Two Rivers would have been bad. They've got channelers and aren't afriad to use them, and depending on what happened, Mat might join him. And then her plan with Carahiem is smart, but stuipid. It's a good way to unify the kingdoms, but... Carahiem is known for 1 thing, Das Damer. By giving Carahiem nobles land in Andor, it's going to just spread that into Andor now.

[FarShainMael]

Two things..

 

I'm wondering if the medallion copy that Mellar stole is going to be attached to Rand.. forcing him to channel the TP because he can't access the OP.

 

Also, after Aludra's demo, Elayne complains of feeling 'an odd indigestion'. A threat of a possible premature birth maybe..

 

@DPT24: 'The two must be as one'.

[Jon Paul]

I was more impressed by Perrin during his meeting with Elayne than I was with Elayne. He basically sat there, let her fumble about, knowing full well she couldn't touch him regardless of how hard she tried to paint a picture in which she was his saviour etcetera. It was just amusing. I wish it was from his POV just so we could have that chapter of Perrin's internal monologue consisting of nothing but "hahahahahahahahahahahahaha".

[Shard]

Well the Plan was actually Brilliant.

 

I agree to an extent. It was a clever plan. I think it was the first time i was actually a little impressed by her. Then the other darkfriends strolled in and i remembered that she didn´t bring any backup. If she had given it more thought it could have been brilliant.

 

 

To the people who say that Elayne is similar to Mat. That´s the difference between them in my opinion. Mat is considered to be foolhardy and whatever, but his plan to stop the gholam wasn´t just rushing him head on. He thought about it. Sought help. Showed patience.

 

That's my problem with her she doesn't give these plans enough thought she just jumps in. I suppose she's gotten used to doing what she want and I think she's even been a bit inspired by Mat and Thom's exploits.

[AutomatedTeller]

My problem with Elayne is that she really hasn't grown any.

 

I mean, she was probably more mature and readier for her role than any of the core 6, cause she was prepared for it since she was a child. But all that means is that there isn't a lot of growth for her.

 

Maybe - MAYBE - she's starting to exhibit it in this book, though it's a little weird that she's all worried about the effect of the oath rod on her kids, but just blithely goes to question DF's on her own.

[dwn]

Well the Plan was actually Brilliant.

 

I agree to an extent. It was a clever plan. I think it was the first time i was actually a little impressed by her. Then the other darkfriends strolled in and i remembered that she didn´t bring any backup. If she had given it more thought it could have been brilliant.

 

 

To the people who say that Elayne is similar to Mat. That´s the difference between them in my opinion. Mat is considered to be foolhardy and whatever, but his plan to stop the gholam wasn´t just rushing him head on. He thought about it. Sought help. Showed patience.

 

Mat doesn't often show patience or seek help.

 

Elayne was somewhat foolhardy here, though. I think she feels caged by responsibility, excessively mothered over by Birgitte and the midwife, and tied up in a lot of frustrating bureaucracy and political manoeuvrings. It's not surprising that she acts a bit reckless whenever she gets the chance. Rand, Mat, Perrin and Egwene have all had their issues adjusting to leadership. This is Elayne's.

 

-- dwn

[Danny7185]

I came away from ToM with less love for Elayne as well.

 

She seemed a little too cold blooded when it came to maneuvering Andor for after the Last Battle. The way she dealt with Mat and the Dragons and thinking of using them against the Seanchen first and foremost, the way she dealt with Perrin and the Two Rivers, how when seeing her mother alive the first thing she thought of was a Succession problem, the way she coldly calculated plans if Rand died. I can understand it, but I don't like it, and that is why I don't like her character as much.

 

Elayne and Egwene seem to be acting like Rand had been before he made peace with himself. I know Rand will give Eqwene the smackdown she needs, but I hope Elayne will see the light as well.

 

Elayne used to be my favorite of Rand's three loves, but now Min is far and away my favorite. Where Elayne hopes Rand won't die, Min pledges she won't let it happen.

[Hadilmir]

I've always hated Elayne, I still hate Elayne. Any argument I make would be terribly biased against her, so I won't make any.

[karehiro]

I am simply growing more and more annoyed with her. Reasons: Her first thought of knowing Mat was there was in wondering how she'll use him, her reaction of annoyance when the truth was said to her face that Rand was giving her Cairhenin (sp?) as if she was trying to live a fantasy that she attained it through her own efforts, her sense of entitlement towards Mat's foxhead medallion and nearly getting it stolen, and of course her 'smart' plan with the BA without telling anyone, yet needing to be saved from her own stupidity (which is fast becoming a habit). Her sense of entitlement and the way she uses people is bad enough, but she thinks she doesn't even have to learn from her experiences due to Min's prophecies and people bail her out whenever she needs to be saved from her own troubles. Her whole mindset and personality is not really something I can get behind, and is quickly making her among the most irritating characters for me.

[JohnnyBeGood]

Well the Plan was actually Brilliant.

 

I agree to an extent. It was a clever plan. I think it was the first time i was actually a little impressed by her. Then the other darkfriends strolled in and i remembered that she didn´t bring any backup. If she had given it more thought it could have been brilliant.

 

 

To the people who say that Elayne is similar to Mat. That´s the difference between them in my opinion. Mat is considered to be foolhardy and whatever, but his plan to stop the gholam wasn´t just rushing him head on. He thought about it. Sought help. Showed patience.

 

She did have Backup. She had some Women of the Kin and a Number of Guards right outside of the Doors. She also had Guards waiting on the other Side of the Gateway. Add to that a very powerful Angreal and Matt´s Medallion. The pregnancy was also no real problem, cause it only makes it hard to grasp Sadir, once she is filled with the power she can Chanel how she wants and she needed the Power to get there anyway.

 

The Guards and Kin outside the doors were killed. That was one of the things i thought was strange. Only the Secretary was shown as the rescuer of the dark friends. Unless there was some really brilliant rescue Plan(poisoning all kinswomen and guards at the same time, which would be very hard)i can´t see the Secretary pulling it off alone and with out causing a racket at that.

 

Still she should have talked her Plan over with advisors and prepared better. Sadly Elayne is greatly controlled by her Emotions and they tend to make her Dumb, very Dumb(she really needs to take the Test for the Shawl to learn how to stay calm. Though i am not sure if she would succeed). One can see this trait of hers many times. A good example is her fight during the Escape attempt. Twice she tries to use the Power on someone holding the Medallion and fails miserably. And during the Part where she actually has control of the Battle, she forgets that there was one more darkfriend captive and relies on the racket alarming the guards. Right then and there she should have made a Gateway to get Help, there could have been even more Darkfriends for all she knew.

 

Sidenote: I found Mat´s Plan very bad actually. It almost got Talmanes killed and the idea of Talmanes luring the Gholam to the House, seems a bit idiotic. That only worked because the Gholam was trying to put out the lanterns and Talmanes grabbed one and ran. Also Mat had to fight and overwhelm the Gholam for it to succeed. Not really the best Plan.

[ajfurst]

Her repeated stupidity regarding Min's viewing really should have been rammed home IMO. Another 'Oops, easily Healed hurt, see Min was right!' episode should have been Mellar dragging her off and having his way before she was rescued or she copped a permanent injury. Given how vain she is something ruining her looks that even Nyn. couldn't Heal would have been just right. I mean Mat lost an eye, Rand a hand and Perrin his family. Yet again one of the wondergirls skips away with the inconvenience only.

 

Add in her trying to line up everyone behind Egwene instead of Rand. Yo, Rand, I need a sperm donor here (just don't expect me to keep you in the loop on your kids)! But Egwene is the Saviour of the World you wool-brained sheep herder.

[Emily_Sedai]

It's interesting, but I find the times when Elayne is willing to put herself in harms way to be some of her best moments... as opposed to sending in half trained kin or defenselsess guards, she's willing to take the risk herself. She doesn't say that she is too valuable, and someone else should take the risk. Think of a general ready to send his troops to the slaughter, knowing that he can always get more. Would that general be admirable, or the one willing to share the hardships and risk of battle? At times, it's appropriate to stay back to run things, but in Elayne's opinion, she was the most highly qualified candidate to interrogate the darkfriends, just as her and Vandene were the ones best equiped to assualt the house of Lady Shiane (please excuse typos, I don't feel like digging out my copy of KOD at the moment, lol)

 

In both those instances, she had good plans, that went wrong based on things that she couldn't control. She had know way of knowing that there were other dark sisters at the house, and was going on the information that was provided. In the same instance in the cells, she had no way of knowing that a rescue attempt was just now occuring, or that the 'secretary' was a darkfriend in disguise! Alas, she can't predict the future, nor was it prudent for her to Travel to Tear for a visit with the Aelfin before executing her plan. I think she acted admirably, with a well thought out plan *shrug* The best plans hold until the first arrow is loosed, lol.

 

I think Elayne is treated harshly by the fans of the series... are you telling me that Perrin never made any mistakes in his leadership roles, or Rand? The Borderland rulers? At least she has held her city and country together, as opposed to the conquered nations in the West of Randland, or the collapsed nations all over the place!

[Mercer]

Really wanted Elayne to bite the dust in this one. That sounds worse when I remember she still hasn't given birth, but I reaaaallly wanted her dead. To name only a few reasons: her POV chapters are largely unnecessary and drag on. Her character is a near clone of Egwene's at this point. We can only put up with so much pining after/attempted manipulation of Rand, and all the other female characters are more compelling to read than Elayne. Lastly,somebody major needs to die! Come on!

[TheTuninator]

I do think it's admirable that she's willing to take such great risks personally. What I find equally deplorable to counterbalance that is that she constantly shrugs off the attempts of people who love and care about her to protect her, and she also acts without considering the lives of her twins. As Birgitte pointed out, it's perfectly possible for Elayne to be captured by the Shadow and give birth to perfectly healthy twins, who will then be ushered into a life of unspeakable horrors.

 

But does she care about this or think about this? No.

I think the real crux of the anger is that Perrin and Rand have both realized their mistakes and come to face their flaws; Elayne (and also Egwene, to an extent) really haven't done so, which is why they still continue to catch a lot of flak.

Gotta agree with Mercer; if anyone has to bite it, I'd really be indifferent to Elayne doing so. Would feel really bad for Rand, and because of the kids, and Birgitte but she's just a rather uninteresting character to me at the moment.

[Mr. Micawber]

Uh, if that stolen amulet's going to anyone, and allows them to continue dipping into the sweet sweet crack that is the TP, it'll be Elan Morin or Demandred.

 

They're the only two Chosen left in favor, and we know that Elan Morin, at least, uses the TP exclusively.

 

And methinks Demandred might get to start partaking of that juice.

[Emily_Sedai]

I do think it's admirable that she's willing to take such great risks personally. What I find equally deplorable to counterbalance that is that she constantly shrugs off the attempts of people who love and care about her to protect her, and she also acts without considering the lives of her twins. As Birgitte pointed out, it's perfectly possible for Elayne to be captured by the Shadow and give birth to perfectly healthy twins, who will then be ushered into a life of unspeakable horrors.

 

But does she care about this or think about this? No.

I think the real crux of the anger is that Perrin and Rand have both realized their mistakes and come to face their flaws; Elayne (and also Egwene, to an extent) really haven't done so, which is why they still continue to catch a lot of flak.

Gotta agree with Mercer; if anyone has to bite it, I'd really be indifferent to Elayne doing so. Would feel really bad for Rand, and because of the kids, and Birgitte but she's just a rather uninteresting character to me at the moment.

 

As stated earlier, Elayne didn't go into the cells with no one knowing... she had guards on call along with the Kin. She had the situation perfectly in hand, however by some fluke of timing, the plan backfired. It happens *shrug* She adapted, and fought back using her skills and barely managed to survive. She showed some toughness there imho. What would Birgitte being up in the gateway room have accomplished? What would having 6 more soliders have accomplished? Maybe stopped the secretary from killing the people there, but then he would have sprung the black sisters the next night instead. In Elayne's view, she was going to interrogate/trick a single, solitary black sister who was shielded. That's like saying I'm going to go interrogate a prisoner that is chained to a wall with bars in between us. Would I expect a bodyguard to accompany me there? There is really no threat of danger.

 

Hmm, Rand has been in charge of a nation since TDR, and treated as a Lord since TGH. Perrin since TSR. Elayne: KoD. Bit of a time gap for her to grow into leadership, and it took Perrin until this last book to accept leadership, and was willing to toss lives away up until KoD in order to save his wife and screw everyone else. Rand was killing innocents in the last book because Graendal may be in a location, and abandonded the Domani to their fate because he didn't have the time to help them. I think we owe Elayne, and indeed Egween, some time to grow. I'm not sure if it's a male vs. female thing, but it seems as though the fans are certainly harder on the female leaders than the male ones.

[Mr. Micawber]

I do think it's admirable that she's willing to take such great risks personally. What I find equally deplorable to counterbalance that is that she constantly shrugs off the attempts of people who love and care about her to protect her, and she also acts without considering the lives of her twins. As Birgitte pointed out, it's perfectly possible for Elayne to be captured by the Shadow and give birth to perfectly healthy twins, who will then be ushered into a life of unspeakable horrors.

 

But does she care about this or think about this? No.

I think the real crux of the anger is that Perrin and Rand have both realized their mistakes and come to face their flaws; Elayne (and also Egwene, to an extent) really haven't done so, which is why they still continue to catch a lot of flak.

Gotta agree with Mercer; if anyone has to bite it, I'd really be indifferent to Elayne doing so. Would feel really bad for Rand, and because of the kids, and Birgitte but she's just a rather uninteresting character to me at the moment.

 

As stated earlier, Elayne didn't go into the cells with no one knowing... she had guards on call along with the Kin. She had the situation perfectly in hand, however by some fluke of timing, the plan backfired. It happens *shrug* She adapted, and fought back using her skills and barely managed to survive. She showed some toughness there imho. What would Birgitte being up in the gateway room have accomplished? What would having 6 more soliders have accomplished? Maybe stopped the secretary from killing the people there, but then he would have sprung the black sisters the next night instead. In Elayne's view, she was going to interrogate/trick a single, solitary black sister who was shielded. That's like saying I'm going to go interrogate a prisoner that is chained to a wall with bars in between us. Would I expect a bodyguard to accompany me there? There is really no threat of danger.

 

Hmm, Rand has been in charge of a nation since TDR, and treated as a Lord since TGH. Perrin since TSR. Elayne: KoD. Bit of a time gap for her to grow into leadership, and it took Perrin until this last book to accept leadership, and was willing to toss lives away up until KoD in order to save his wife and screw everyone else. Rand was killing innocents in the last book because Graendal may be in a location, and abandonded the Domani to their fate because he didn't have the time to help them. I think we owe Elayne, and indeed Egween, some time to grow. I'm not sure if it's a male vs. female thing, but it seems as though the fans are certainly harder on the female leaders than the male ones.

 

 

Uh, really, this is a very weak argument.

 

You realize that Elayne's been treated as the heir apparent - and thus trained to rule - from the day of her *flaming birth*

 

She's literally had her entire life to prepare. That's whole flaming point of being *the heir flaming apparent*

 

Seriously, are you utterly unfamiliar with how monarchs train their kids? And with the training Elayne has constantly *talked* about having since birth?

[TheTuninator]

I do think it's admirable that she's willing to take such great risks personally. What I find equally deplorable to counterbalance that is that she constantly shrugs off the attempts of people who love and care about her to protect her, and she also acts without considering the lives of her twins. As Birgitte pointed out, it's perfectly possible for Elayne to be captured by the Shadow and give birth to perfectly healthy twins, who will then be ushered into a life of unspeakable horrors.

 

But does she care about this or think about this? No.

I think the real crux of the anger is that Perrin and Rand have both realized their mistakes and come to face their flaws; Elayne (and also Egwene, to an extent) really haven't done so, which is why they still continue to catch a lot of flak.

Gotta agree with Mercer; if anyone has to bite it, I'd really be indifferent to Elayne doing so. Would feel really bad for Rand, and because of the kids, and Birgitte but she's just a rather uninteresting character to me at the moment.

 

As stated earlier, Elayne didn't go into the cells with no one knowing... she had guards on call along with the Kin. She had the situation perfectly in hand, however by some fluke of timing, the plan backfired. It happens *shrug* She adapted, and fought back using her skills and barely managed to survive. She showed some toughness there imho. What would Birgitte being up in the gateway room have accomplished? What would having 6 more soliders have accomplished? Maybe stopped the secretary from killing the people there, but then he would have sprung the black sisters the next night instead. In Elayne's view, she was going to interrogate/trick a single, solitary black sister who was shielded. That's like saying I'm going to go interrogate a prisoner that is chained to a wall with bars in between us. Would I expect a bodyguard to accompany me there? There is really no threat of danger.

 

Hmm, Rand has been in charge of a nation since TDR, and treated as a Lord since TGH. Perrin since TSR. Elayne: KoD. Bit of a time gap for her to grow into leadership, and it took Perrin until this last book to accept leadership, and was willing to toss lives away up until KoD in order to save his wife and screw everyone else. Rand was killing innocents in the last book because Graendal may be in a location, and abandonded the Domani to their fate because he didn't have the time to help them. I think we owe Elayne, and indeed Egween, some time to grow. I'm not sure if it's a male vs. female thing, but it seems as though the fans are certainly harder on the female leaders than the male ones.

 

While it's a fair point about the guards, Elayne refuses to consider she may be in danger because of the view quite a lot. It's hardly a rare occurence.

And as mentioned, Elayne's had far more training and experience in being a leader than Rand has.

[Mercer]

Rand was killing innocents in the last book because Graendal may be in a location, and abandonded the Domani to their fate because he didn't have the time to help them. I think we owe Elayne, and indeed Egween, some time to grow.

What time? We're one book away from the end of the series, and we're wasting time watching Elayne (Or Egwene V2) go on and on about things we know will occur, and could do so in a much more timely fashion. Off-page, even.

 

I'm not sure if it's a male vs. female thing, but it seems as though the fans are certainly harder on the female leaders than the male ones.

Probably. Mainly because the females are generally less interesting to read. Call it what you will, the story started out about 3 guys, one as the central focus, and all have important roles that can't be resolved off-page. If the series was started with Elayne as star, maybe it would be different. Perrin's POV's have taken their share of flak for the whole "FAAAAAIIILLLE" thing, and rightly so. Elayne's character is a re-hash of Egwene's at this point, and it's getting redundant.

[Emily_Sedai]

I do think it's admirable that she's willing to take such great risks personally. What I find equally deplorable to counterbalance that is that she constantly shrugs off the attempts of people who love and care about her to protect her, and she also acts without considering the lives of her twins. As Birgitte pointed out, it's perfectly possible for Elayne to be captured by the Shadow and give birth to perfectly healthy twins, who will then be ushered into a life of unspeakable horrors.

 

But does she care about this or think about this? No.

I think the real crux of the anger is that Perrin and Rand have both realized their mistakes and come to face their flaws; Elayne (and also Egwene, to an extent) really haven't done so, which is why they still continue to catch a lot of flak.

Gotta agree with Mercer; if anyone has to bite it, I'd really be indifferent to Elayne doing so. Would feel really bad for Rand, and because of the kids, and Birgitte but she's just a rather uninteresting character to me at the moment.

 

As stated earlier, Elayne didn't go into the cells with no one knowing... she had guards on call along with the Kin. She had the situation perfectly in hand, however by some fluke of timing, the plan backfired. It happens *shrug* She adapted, and fought back using her skills and barely managed to survive. She showed some toughness there imho. What would Birgitte being up in the gateway room have accomplished? What would having 6 more soliders have accomplished? Maybe stopped the secretary from killing the people there, but then he would have sprung the black sisters the next night instead. In Elayne's view, she was going to interrogate/trick a single, solitary black sister who was shielded. That's like saying I'm going to go interrogate a prisoner that is chained to a wall with bars in between us. Would I expect a bodyguard to accompany me there? There is really no threat of danger.

 

Hmm, Rand has been in charge of a nation since TDR, and treated as a Lord since TGH. Perrin since TSR. Elayne: KoD. Bit of a time gap for her to grow into leadership, and it took Perrin until this last book to accept leadership, and was willing to toss lives away up until KoD in order to save his wife and screw everyone else. Rand was killing innocents in the last book because Graendal may be in a location, and abandonded the Domani to their fate because he didn't have the time to help them. I think we owe Elayne, and indeed Egween, some time to grow. I'm not sure if it's a male vs. female thing, but it seems as though the fans are certainly harder on the female leaders than the male ones.

 

While it's a fair point about the guards, Elayne refuses to consider she may be in danger because of the view quite a lot. It's hardly a rare occurence.

And as mentioned, Elayne's had far more training and experience in being a leader than Rand has.

 

Elayne's mother taught her how to handle a civil war? How to be an Aes Sedai and deal with the black ajah and interrogate them? How to handle the end of days, with fields laying barren, the sky unnaturally dark during the day, and the Dragon walking the Earth? How to deal with a Black Tower full of men who can channel on her soil? How to address a group of rogue, refugee channelers living in the palace? The threat of an unknown force using flying creatures that can drop shock troops at any point? Her kingdom being shattered by a male Aes Sedai trapped within the Bore at the time of her birth? In addition, as anyone who has *ever* held a job can tell you... being trained to do a job, and actually doing it, are a bit different.

 

So far in her life, Elayne helped to save the Panarch, become an Aes Sedai, save refugees, find the bowl of winds and save the entire world from frying, help Rand with the high lords of Tear, protect Caemlyn from an assault, save Brig, secure the throne of Andor and Car, deal with her mother being deceased, and help rescue Egween from the Seanchan. Not too shabby for an 18 year old. What has she really screwed up? Getting Vandene killed and getting stabbed in the cells? The bargain with the Sea Folk? Getting on the bad side of Mat Cauthon, a man who dislikes nobles on principle?

 

I'll grant you that Elayne considers herself safe all too often, but when Brig brought up the points about her children could still be born and Elayne in not-so-good shape, she agreed with her, and agreed to have more care. In the case of her going to the interrogation, I believe that she was reasonable with her safety.

[Emily_Sedai]

Rand was killing innocents in the last book because Graendal may be in a location, and abandonded the Domani to their fate because he didn't have the time to help them. I think we owe Elayne, and indeed Egween, some time to grow.

What time? We're one book away from the end of the series, and we're wasting time watching Elayne (Or Egwene V2) go on and on about things we know will occur, and could do so in a much more timely fashion. Off-page, even.

 

I'm not sure if it's a male vs. female thing, but it seems as though the fans are certainly harder on the female leaders than the male ones.

Probably. Mainly because the females are generally less interesting to read. Call it what you will, the story started out about 3 guys, one as the central focus, and all have important roles that can't be resolved off-page. If the series was started with Elayne as star, maybe it would be different. Perrin's POV's have taken their share of flak for the whole "FAAAAAIIILLLE" thing, and rightly so. Elayne's character is a re-hash of Egwene's at this point, and it's getting redundant.

 

I'd agree that the story arc got a bit of flack, but not really Perrin himself, and he was a pretty big @#@#%^&* during that entire sequence *laugh*

[Mr. Micawber]

I do think it's admirable that she's willing to take such great risks personally. What I find equally deplorable to counterbalance that is that she constantly shrugs off the attempts of people who love and care about her to protect her, and she also acts without considering the lives of her twins. As Birgitte pointed out, it's perfectly possible for Elayne to be captured by the Shadow and give birth to perfectly healthy twins, who will then be ushered into a life of unspeakable horrors.

 

But does she care about this or think about this? No.

I think the real crux of the anger is that Perrin and Rand have both realized their mistakes and come to face their flaws; Elayne (and also Egwene, to an extent) really haven't done so, which is why they still continue to catch a lot of flak.

Gotta agree with Mercer; if anyone has to bite it, I'd really be indifferent to Elayne doing so. Would feel really bad for Rand, and because of the kids, and Birgitte but she's just a rather uninteresting character to me at the moment.

 

As stated earlier, Elayne didn't go into the cells with no one knowing... she had guards on call along with the Kin. She had the situation perfectly in hand, however by some fluke of timing, the plan backfired. It happens *shrug* She adapted, and fought back using her skills and barely managed to survive. She showed some toughness there imho. What would Birgitte being up in the gateway room have accomplished? What would having 6 more soliders have accomplished? Maybe stopped the secretary from killing the people there, but then he would have sprung the black sisters the next night instead. In Elayne's view, she was going to interrogate/trick a single, solitary black sister who was shielded. That's like saying I'm going to go interrogate a prisoner that is chained to a wall with bars in between us. Would I expect a bodyguard to accompany me there? There is really no threat of danger.

 

Hmm, Rand has been in charge of a nation since TDR, and treated as a Lord since TGH. Perrin since TSR. Elayne: KoD. Bit of a time gap for her to grow into leadership, and it took Perrin until this last book to accept leadership, and was willing to toss lives away up until KoD in order to save his wife and screw everyone else. Rand was killing innocents in the last book because Graendal may be in a location, and abandonded the Domani to their fate because he didn't have the time to help them. I think we owe Elayne, and indeed Egween, some time to grow. I'm not sure if it's a male vs. female thing, but it seems as though the fans are certainly harder on the female leaders than the male ones.

 

While it's a fair point about the guards, Elayne refuses to consider she may be in danger because of the view quite a lot. It's hardly a rare occurence.

And as mentioned, Elayne's had far more training and experience in being a leader than Rand has.

 

Elayne's mother taught her how to handle a civil war? How to be an Aes Sedai and deal with the black ajah and interrogate them? How to handle the end of days, with fields laying barren, the sky unnaturally dark during the day, and the Dragon walking the Earth? How to deal with a Black Tower full of men who can channel on her soil? How to address a group of rogue, refugee channelers living in the palace? The threat of an unknown force using flying creatures that can drop shock troops at any point? Her kingdom being shattered by a male Aes Sedai trapped within the Bore at the time of her birth? In addition, as anyone who has *ever* held a job can tell you... being trained to do a job, and actually doing it, are a bit different.

 

So far in her life, Elayne helped to save the Panarch, become an Aes Sedai, save refugees, find the bowl of winds and save the entire world from frying, help Rand with the high lords of Tear, protect Caemlyn from an assault, save Brig, secure the throne of Andor and Car, deal with her mother being deceased, and help rescue Egween from the Seanchan. Not too shabby for an 18 year old. What has she really screwed up? Getting Vandene killed and getting stabbed in the cells? The bargain with the Sea Folk? Getting on the bad side of Mat Cauthon, a man who dislikes nobles on principle?

 

I'll grant you that Elayne considers herself safe all too often, but when Brig brought up the points about her children could still be born and Elayne in not-so-good shape, she agreed with her, and agreed to have more care. In the case of her going to the interrogation, I believe that she was reasonable with her safety.

 

 

Uh, yea.

 

You do realize, of course, that the reason Rand isn't the First Prince of the flaming Sword is that his mom hitched out of Caemlyn on a mule, his uncle went up to the Blight to get turned into one of the most interesting hitmen outside of a mafia story, and his grandmother died of grief.

 

Causing a flaming civil war that led to Trakand taking the throne.

 

Elayne's succession really didn't have any more combat than her mom's, just one stupid siege and relief sally that lasted at least two *bloody* books longer than it needed to.

 

But her mom sure as *hell* knows how to deal with civil war.

[imBored]

The problem with Elayne is that at every "ingenious" thing she does in this book, I simply wanted to shout at her and tell her that a ten year old could have thought up something as good. She's supposed to have trained in this stuff since she was like 2 months old and she still has Dyelin and Master Norry tell her everything. :P Sorry, I was venting. But really. Me no like Elayne arc.

 

And to the person up ahead that talked of Elayne's problems, while her problems are extensive, I think there are better ways that a fully trained queen could handle them.

[Michelleharper]

I don't remember who asked about this, but I just assumed the skies cleared over Caemlyn because Elayne is currently carrying Rand's children....the blood of the Dragon and all that jazz. But I suppose it could be because of Mat.

 

So, Elayne. I've always liked Elayne. She is brave and bold and unwilling to let others do her dirty work(Black Ajah..) if she feels she can accomplish the task herself. Which I find quite refreshing since the Tairen nobles all thought to have others complete their tasks and order them about. Yes, I believe she is a little immature, but I don't care how long you've been tutored and taught to rule, an eighteen year old is still YOUNG. I believe Elayne is planning on defending Caemlyn for the Last Battle and after. I know she doesn't specifically state "I am doing this for the Last Battle" but as a ruler, she must always look to the future. The Last Battle may end the world, but all the Lightfriends are working to make sure there is an "after" to the Last Battle. As Queen, she realizes her decisions will reach beyond the Last Battle. Perhaps this is a little presumptuous, but it's not as depressing as believing the world will end. She has to have hope for the world and for her country. The fact that she is going to meet with Rand and the other rulers of their shows me that she is thinking about the world and the Last Battle.

 

It's also easier for Elayne to sympathize/empathize with Egwene because it's been so long since she's had any speaking time with Rand. As soon as she gets any time with Rand, I am willing to believe she is going to quit thinking about what is best for him and begin to realize he already knows. (I don't count their last rendezvous as any "time" spent together as quality speaking time because they were both only thinking about one thing....thus the babies...) In the Shadow Rising, I think she realized how capable Rand really is...she just forgot because she's been around Egwene in TAR for far too long. I fully believe that in the meeting with all the rulers, Elayne will be swayed by Rand and his decisions. If for no other fact than that he is ta'veren, but also because she loves him and will be predisposed to listen to him.

 

I love how we forget that these characters are eighteen and twenty years old. I am a high school band director, and I find that no matter how mature a teenager is, they still make mistakes. Good Lord, I'm 30, and I still make my fair share of inexperienced mistakes. I challenge any of you to do as good a job as any of these characters do in their situations. I mean, we're looking at teenagers and young adults with the Power to break the world. Quite literally. It is mind blowing how we can read about their world and instantly analyze everything they did wrong. I think RJ and Branden Sanderson are extremely skilled writers because they can portray young people true to form. They make us want to slap the characters just like we want to slap our kids or students when they do something stupid because they think they are ten feet tall and bulletproof. Hell, I still am! :) Just kidding.

 

Anyway, sorry for the long dissertation. I really like Elayne. I can't wait until her and Aviendha are back together. I love them as First Sisters!