ALMOST??? What you mean, Moiraine?

[Mr Ares]

I am curious..Why isn't Rand burned or dead? Only problem we have seen with Calandor is that it amplifies his madness via taint but something that can draw so much power and has no buffer should kill him instantly, right?

Wrong. Channelers do not themselves have buffers - they can draw too much and burn themselves out. They do not kill themselves instantly, do they? No, not unless they draw too much. Angreal and sa'angreal have buffers preventing one from drawing too much, but Callandor is flawed and lacks that buffer, meaning that one could conceivably draw too much and burn oneself out while using it. By the way, none of this is conjecture, just plain fact. Arguing against it is pointless. "It [Callandor] is flawed, lacking the buffer that makes over sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind." PoD 27.

Dude, did you even read what I wrote? Sorry to sound harsh but you are just babbling.

Painful though it was, I did indeed read what you wrote. And I addressed it. If you feel I have failed to address your points, then show me where. I am happy to enter into a constructive dialogue, to show you precisely where you are going wrong, but a dialogue requires at least two people. Rand is not burnt out or dead because he hasn't overdrawn on the Power or otherwise done anything else that has burnt him out or killed him. We have been told - and I provided the quote, in addition to that someone else provided earlier in the thread - that there is more to Callandor's flaw than just amplifying the madness. The lack of a buffer does not mean that one automatically will be burnt out, only that it is a possibility. I fail to see what I haven't addressed. Please enlighten me, or I shall be forced to conclude that you are merely "trolling". I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

[WhiskyJack]

I am curious..Why isn't Rand burned or dead? Only problem we have seen with Calandor is that it amplifies his madness via taint but something that can draw so much power and has no buffer should kill him instantly, right?

Wrong. Channelers do not themselves have buffers - they can draw too much and burn themselves out. They do not kill themselves instantly, do they? No, not unless they draw too much. Angreal and sa'angreal have buffers preventing one from drawing too much, but Callandor is flawed and lacks that buffer, meaning that one could conceivably draw too much and burn oneself out while using it. By the way, none of this is conjecture, just plain fact. Arguing against it is pointless. "It [Callandor] is flawed, lacking the buffer that makes over sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind." PoD 27.

Dude, did you even read what I wrote? Sorry to sound harsh but you are just babbling.

Painful though it was, I did indeed read what you wrote. And I addressed it. If you feel I have failed to address your points, then show me where. I am happy to enter into a constructive dialogue, to show you precisely where you are going wrong, but a dialogue requires at least two people. Rand is not burnt out or dead because he hasn't overdrawn on the Power or otherwise done anything else that has burnt him out or killed him. We have been told - and I provided the quote, in addition to that someone else provided earlier in the thread - that there is more to Callandor's flaw than just amplifying the madness. The lack of a buffer does not mean that one automatically will be burnt out, only that it is a possibility. I fail to see what I haven't addressed. Please enlighten me, or I shall be forced to conclude that you are merely "trolling". I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) You rehashed everyone's else comment with a big wrong at the beginning. What you wrote had nothing to do wiht what I asked.

2) We know for fact every chaneler has his/her limit. When they draw more power than that their limit without the aid of angreal or..they burn out. Now one uses angreal or sa'angreal to go beyond that limit (leaps and bounds).

3) We also know for fact that Rand drew way more power than what he normally could when he used Calandor. So one must ask this question, how he did it? Unless he never crossed the capacity of his body, which would make Calandor essentially pointless.

 

You have been enlightened. Plz, respond to the actual question. I don't wanna hear some quote from web link.

[Jblaylock]

I thought it was because he took them through all the alternate realities and let 4 months slip away in moments.

[Demiandre]

(On a side note, I shall say that I read WhiskyJacks posts and feel them rude)

 

Let me make a counterargument to the most agreed theory here by you all.

 

On First Hand, we know that what people think they know is not what really is. Belief breaks apart like crushed eggs. Knowledges are a bunch of facts taken as proofs. Someone in the book saying that Callandor's flaw is a lack of buffer tells me it's a trap. And to make irony, Rand stated in WH, Blue Carp Street chapter : "A trap is not a trap if you know there is a trap".

 

One the Other Hand, the Quote Didymos provided, from an Interview with RJ, doesn't really confirm plain as fact that the flaw in Callandor is a lack of a buffer. On the other side, it induces a wildness to the mind. Two possible danger when using it. But only one flaw. It seems to much random and unlinked to me. And RJ told us that the simplest explanation is sometimes the most likely. I do not say he lied. He just gave us a wonderful Aes Sedai answer.

 

Let see where it begins...

 

Callandor is safe only when used in a link of three, because such a link is always led by a woman. Why shall a woman led the circle? A circle of two shall provide the necessary buffer. So that is the man leading the circle that makes it unsafe.

 

What I try to tell you here is that the fact that Callandor is a male attuned Sa'angreal is the cause of the unsafeness of a circle led by a man. Because the wildness to the mind is something that has to do with the flaw, and that flaw is not about a too-much taping into the Source, but about of the brain safeness of the chanelling.

 

This is a plausible explanation of the issue with which I tend to agree the most, because it is logical and in a way very precise but not too complicated.

 

Oh and to try to answer your question, WhiskyJack, a man chanelling can draw too much of the One Power. And he can draw more than that limit with an Angreal, and even more so with a Sa'angreal. The buffer prevent him from drawing too much of the Power when using those objects, but that isn't the limit when not using thos objects.

To present it mathematically, let's take a random chaneller, X being the maximum limit of the One Power that chaneller can draw on.

When using an angreal, the chaneller increase that amount. Let say it increase it by Y-times.

He then has a strength of XxY.

And let's take a Sa'angreal that is Z-times stronger than the angreal. The chaneller can then draw XxYxZ.

The buffer placed on those objects is not set on X, but on XxY when using an angreal, and on XxYxZ.

[Nooska]

 

 

1) You rehashed everyone's else comment with a big wrong at the beginning. What you wrote had nothing to do wiht what I asked.

2) We know for fact every chaneler has his/her limit. When they draw more power than that their limit without the aid of angreal or..they burn out. Now one uses angreal or sa'angreal to go beyond that limit (leaps and bounds).

3) We also know for fact that Rand drew way more power than what he normally could when he used Calandor. So one must ask this question, how he did it? Unless he never crossed the capacity of his body, which would make Calandor essentially pointless.

 

You have been enlightened. Plz, respond to the actual question. I don't wanna hear some quote from web link.

 

2: Overdrawing isn't an instant burn out or death, it carries the risk of burnout or death. That is the whole risk with forcing (see Egwene).

3: You seem to think that an *'angreal is ONLY a buffer. It is an instrument that allows you to draw more of the OP than you can do safely otherwise. The buffer prevents you from overdrawing through an angreaal. Think of it like an impact pillow (the big air filled things) that stuntmen jump down on. They allow a longer jump than if you didn't use it, and the valve lets out air quickly enough for the pillow to absorb the impact (through letting the air out). Callandor is an impact pillow with a faulty valve. It cushions the fall so you can still jump from higher, but if you jump from too high it will still break your legs (or other body parts) because the safety mechanism is faulty.

[WhiskyJack]

 

Callandor is safe only when used in a link of three, because such a link is always led by a woman. Why shall a woman led the circle? A circle of two shall provide the necessary buffer. So that is the man leading the circle that makes it unsafe.

 

I always thought that link itself worked as buffer. Why would man leading the circle will make it unsafe? Two women in circle will work as a buffer, won't they?

 

What I try to tell you here is that the fact that Callandor is a male attuned Sa'angreal is the cause of the unsafeness of a circle led by a man. Because the wildness to the mind is something that has to do with the flaw, and that flaw is not about a too-much taping into the Source, but about of the brain safeness of the chanelling.

 

You cannot draw more than what link allows you to. Unless you think the man is so unstable the he won't be able to control the weave at all, his mere presence in the link means not only he is soaking in the taint, he is passing it on to others too. If it is unsafe for him to channel, it is unsafe for any man to be even part of cicle while holding Calandor. He will still get mushy brain syndrome respective of who is channeling.

 

Besides, taint is gone.

 

This is a plausible explanation of the issue with which I tend to agree the most, because it is logical and in a way very precise but not too complicated.

 

 

Sorry but I didn't see an explanation except you saying that it's unsafe if man leads it. Whether the man is actual weaving or just part of circle, he is accessing Saidin and holding Calandor. So all the apped power of Calandor will go through. Whether he chose to pass the power to someone else or create the weave himself will not change the fact he is basically amplifying the taint too (which is basically passing through him).

 

Oh and to try to answer your question, WhiskyJack, a man chanelling can draw too much of the One Power. And he can draw more than that limit with an Angreal, and even more so with a Sa'angreal. The buffer prevent him from drawing too much of the Power when using those objects, but that isn't the limit when not using thos objects.

To present it mathematically, let's take a random chaneller, X being the maximum limit of the One Power that chaneller can draw on.

When using an angreal, the chaneller increase that amount. Let say it increase it by Y-times.

He then has a strength of XxY.

And let's take a Sa'angreal that is Z-times stronger than the angreal. The chaneller can then draw XxYxZ.

The buffer placed on those objects is not set on X, but on XxY when using an angreal, and on XxYxZ.

 

If a man's body has only limit of X and if Sa'agreal's buffer limit is XYZ, does that not mean that YZ times more power is passing through his body than his body can safely handle? Afterall strength of a channeler is based on his body's capacity to handle certain amount of one power. At no time, you can cross that limit, even if you are using CK.

[WhiskyJack]

 

 

1) You rehashed everyone's else comment with a big wrong at the beginning. What you wrote had nothing to do wiht what I asked.

2) We know for fact every chaneler has his/her limit. When they draw more power than that their limit without the aid of angreal or..they burn out. Now one uses angreal or sa'angreal to go beyond that limit (leaps and bounds).

3) We also know for fact that Rand drew way more power than what he normally could when he used Calandor. So one must ask this question, how he did it? Unless he never crossed the capacity of his body, which would make Calandor essentially pointless.

 

You have been enlightened. Plz, respond to the actual question. I don't wanna hear some quote from web link.

 

2: Overdrawing isn't an instant burn out or death, it carries the risk of burnout or death. That is the whole risk with forcing (see Egwene).

3: You seem to think that an *'angreal is ONLY a buffer. It is an instrument that allows you to draw more of the OP than you can do safely otherwise. The buffer prevents you from overdrawing through an angreaal. Think of it like an impact pillow (the big air filled things) that stuntmen jump down on. They allow a longer jump than if you didn't use it, and the valve lets out air quickly enough for the pillow to absorb the impact (through letting the air out). Callandor is an impact pillow with a faulty valve. It cushions the fall so you can still jump from higher, but if you jump from too high it will still break your legs (or other body parts) because the safety mechanism is faulty.

 

1) Burnout will depend on how much more you are drawing beyond your safety limit. If you can handle only X and you are doing 3X, you will be dead instantly.

2) What is too high? 10 times? 20 times? 100 times? We have seen commentaries where channelers have claimed that drawing power even slightly more than safety limit can cause burn out or worse death. So it's safe to assume that if you are drawing twice your limit or 5 times, you be dead instantly. And I think Calandor amps Rand's power by leaps and bounds.

[Demiandre]

No, that mean that the body can stand YZ times more Power passing through the body. To make it simple, the Sa'angreal push back the limit of the body. Thus giving more strength. Thus providing a buffer that makes it impossible for the chaneller to overdraw on the Power.

 

And to reply to your answer on the circle : yes, that's right. And that is the point of view I had when writing it. A circle provide a buffer (which I wrote). So it is unsafe in a circle of two (a man and a woman) which can be led only by a man. Two women are a circle indeed.

 

To reply on the wildness : Callandor works for men. Men chanell saidin. Wildness to the mind doesn't mean the One Power. The OP is affected by the wildness. So if Callandor is used by a man, even in a circle, the flaw would still affect the man. If the woman lead the circle, then she fears nothing because she isn't affected by the wildness, because her brain is not touched, and she chanel saidin through the male chaneller. The same stand for the taint. The One Power flows through the man. He is the barrier. The woman won't suffer from the Taint. It's the man that is affected.

[yoniy0]

(On a side note, I shall say that I read WhiskyJacks posts and feel them rude)

Yes, and Mr. Ares's responses were a tad curt as well. Let's try for more civility, ok guys?

[WhiskyJack]

(On a side note, I shall say that I read WhiskyJacks posts and feel them rude)

Yes, and Mr. Ares's responses were a tad curt as well. Let's try for more civility, ok guys?

 

 

He is just miffed because I commented on someone else's post and he started calling me troll. Yeh, I made rude comments on him;)

[Nooska]

1) Burnout will depend on how much more you are drawing beyond your safety limit. If you can handle only X and you are doing 3X, you will be dead instantly.

2) What is too high? 10 times? 20 times? 100 times? We have seen commentaries where channelers have claimed that drawing power even slightly more than safety limit can cause burn out or worse death. So it's safe to assume that if you are drawing twice your limit or 5 times, you be dead instantly. And I think Calandor amps Rand's power by leaps and bounds.

1) Most likely, but that wasn't the issue or what you were saying.

2) Doesn't matter how much higher you can jump, its a comparsion to something that can be more easily understood to fit the concept that you seem to have a hard time understanding the explanations of, as you seem to think the *'angreal simply are a buffer and you are limited by your innate power, which is not what the books indicate or say - the *'angreal are a focus point - a heat sink if you will - that allow you to draw more power than your "body" can handle. the *'angreal further has a surge protector (the buffer) so you can't overheat while amping up and dissipating through a heatsink.

[WhiskyJack]

1) Burnout will depend on how much more you are drawing beyond your safety limit. If you can handle only X and you are doing 3X, you will be dead instantly.

2) What is too high? 10 times? 20 times? 100 times? We have seen commentaries where channelers have claimed that drawing power even slightly more than safety limit can cause burn out or worse death. So it's safe to assume that if you are drawing twice your limit or 5 times, you be dead instantly. And I think Calandor amps Rand's power by leaps and bounds.

1) Most likely, but that wasn't the issue or what you were saying.

2) Doesn't matter how much higher you can jump, its a comparsion to something that can be more easily understood to fit the concept that you seem to have a hard time understanding the explanations of, as you seem to think the *'angreal simply are a buffer and you are limited by your innate power, which is not what the books indicate or say - the *'angreal are a focus point - a heat sink if you will - that allow you to draw more power than your "body" can handle. the *'angreal further has a surge protector (the buffer) so you can't overheat while amping up and dissipating through a heatsink.

 

 

Thanks. You do realize that your answer is exact copy of what is written in the book;)

 

 

1) I was saying precisely that.

2)

My take on Angreal was that they can boost your total capacity, by adding their own limit to yours and still not let you be overwhelmed by power beyond your own original capacity. I guess I was wrong.

 

By the way, Calandor has no buffer. Hope that was part of your explanation because your post is going right over my head;)

[Nooska]

By the way, Calandor has no buffer. Hope that was part of your explanation because your post is going right over my head;)

 

Yes, Callandor is bufferless. To stay with my analogy that still menas you get teh heatsink, just not the surgeprotection, so you can still do the same amount of "more" as you could if the buffer was there, there just isn't a kill switch if you amp it up beyond that point. Callandor being a very strong sa'angreal is the most likely treason that Rand hasn't overdrawn - or perhaps Rand has a builtin buffer because of who he is (the pattern protects him from burning out because the pattern needs him to be able to channel).

[WhiskyJack]

By the way, Calandor has no buffer. Hope that was part of your explanation because your post is going right over my head;)

 

Yes, Callandor is bufferless. To stay with my analogy that still menas you get teh heatsink, just not the surgeprotection, so you can still do the same amount of "more" as you could if the buffer was there, there just isn't a kill switch if you amp it up beyond that point. Callandor being a very strong sa'angreal is the most likely treason that Rand hasn't overdrawn - or perhaps Rand has a builtin buffer because of who he is (the pattern protects him from burning out because the pattern needs him to be able to channel).

 

 

I am pretty sure I mentioned like 50 times that Rand had amped it beyond "that point". My guess is that "alleged point" is his body's own safety limit. I guess this tidbit got lost in translation;).

 

In-built surge protector? That sounds s promising.

[Nooska]

How would we know if he overdre on Callandor? the only comparison we have is the CK, and Rand never drew anywhere near those levels on Callandor, so how do we know he went past the PONR?

[WhiskyJack]

How would we know if he overdre on Callandor? the only comparison we have is the CK, and Rand never drew anywhere near those levels on Callandor, so how do we know he went past the PONR?

 

 

I am trying to revise my theories. Thanks for all your help.

[WhiskyJack]

No, that mean that the body can stand YZ times more Power passing through the body. To make it simple, the Sa'angreal push back the limit of the body. Thus giving more strength. Thus providing a buffer that makes it impossible for the chaneller to overdraw on the Power.

 

Something like that I guess.

And to reply to your answer on the circle : yes, that's right. And that is the point of view I had when writing it. A circle provide a buffer (which I wrote). So it is unsafe in a circle of two (a man and a woman) which can be led only by a man. Two women are a circle indeed.

 

A man and woman linked is a circle..in a way. Circle is more than one person linked together, I think.

 

To reply on the wildness : Callandor works for men. Men chanell saidin. Wildness to the mind doesn't mean the One Power. The OP is affected by the wildness. So if Callandor is used by a man, even in a circle, the flaw would still affect the man. If the woman lead the circle, then she fears nothing because she isn't affected by the wildness, because her brain is not touched, and she chanel saidin through the male chaneller. The same stand for the taint. The One Power flows through the man. He is the barrier. The woman won't suffer from the Taint. It's the man that is affected.

 

 

Elza was controlling the weave in link (WH) and she mentions the feeling of taint when linked to two other. Merise was asked to confirm whether taint is gone or not. This happens because one controlling the link has to control both Saidar and Saidin. Nynaeve mentioned the feeling of taint while linking with Rand. When men and women link, they become carrier of both types of one power. But yes, small exposure will not as fatal as prolonged one.

[Demiandre]

Feeling the taint isn't the same as being touched by the taint. When a woman lead the circle, she use saidin as well. But she can only chanel saidar herself. Saidin is passing through Narishma's body (in the case pf the Cleansing battle). The woman feel the taint on saidin, but the taint is drained by the body of the chaneller, not the weaver. The same goes for the wildness. It affects the chaneller's mind.

 

And yes, a circle is more than one person linked together. I have been saying that for a while.

[WhiskyJack]

Feeling the taint isn't the same as being touched by the taint. When a woman lead the circle, she use saidin as well. But she can only chanel saidar herself. Saidin is passing through Narishma's body (in the case pf the Cleansing battle). The woman feel the taint on saidin, but the taint is drained by the body of the chaneller, not the weaver. The same goes for the wildness. It affects the chaneller's mind.

 

And yes, a circle is more than one person linked together. I have been saying that for a while.

 

 

Rand was controlling both Saidar and Saidin in W'sH.

[Demiandre]

Indeed. Because he couldn't syphon the taint if he wasn't leading the circle.

 

Why do you keep on putting sentences without explaining where it contradict what I said? If you just put facts on the post, that lead to nothing...

[WhiskyJack]

Indeed. Because he couldn't syphon the taint if he wasn't leading the circle.

 

Why do you keep on putting sentences without explaining where it contradict what I said? If you just put facts on the post, that lead to nothing...

 

 

Because I thought it was obvious. A woman controlling the link with both men and women part of it will control both Saidar and Saidin. There is no other way. The moment you touch Saidin, you will touch taint too. You cannot "feel" taint and not be affected it by it. If man can work as "barrier" for taint, no woman can tell whether taint exists or not. So I assumed that I was stating something that contradicted your observation.

 

P.S: Taint is not some separate entity. It is glued to Saidin. You cannot peel it off and pass only good Saidin to female channeler. If you could, they won't feel taint at all and if you could, probably you could devise a way to not be affected by it. Accessing one power is not the same as channeling it afterall.

[Demiandre]

Ok now I see how it contradict what I was saying. Just saying

Rand was controlling both Saidar and Saidin in W'sH.

isn't proving ordisproving anything neither does it explain your point of view. It's like saying water is wet for proving that fire burns, you see?

 

Because I thought it was obvious. A woman controlling the link with both men and women part of it will control both Saidar and Saidin. There is no other way. The moment you touch Saidin, you will touch taint too. You cannot "feel" taint and not be affected it by it. If man can work as "barrier" for taint, no woman can tell whether taint exists or not. So I assumed that I was stating something that contradicted your observation.

A woman leading a circle will "meld the flow". She draw on saidin through the male chaneller. That's how she feel the taint, but isn't affected by it. See it as the men touching the source. A woman can't tap into saidin on her side. She need the man for that. There is no other way. So the man touch the taint, but not the woman, who only access the One Power.

 

P.S: Taint is not some separate entity. It is glued to Saidin. You cannot peel it off and pass only good Saidin to female channeler. If you could, they won't feel taint at all and if you could, probably you could devise a way to not be affected by it. Accessing one power is not the same as channeling it afterall.

If it is not a separate entity, how did Rand cleanse saidin? We have several description of the taint being a layer of oil on a pool of water (the oil being the taint and the water saidin). they don't mix. Rand couldn't direct the whole taint to Shadar Logoth if it was the same entity as saidin, because saidin is in a way infinite.

[WhiskyJack]

Ok now I see how it contradict what I was saying. Just saying

Rand was controlling both Saidar and Saidin in W'sH.

isn't proving ordisproving anything neither does it explain your point of view. It's like saying water is wet for proving that fire burns, you see?

 

Because I thought it was obvious. A woman controlling the link with both men and women part of it will control both Saidar and Saidin. There is no other way. The moment you touch Saidin, you will touch taint too. You cannot "feel" taint and not be affected it by it. If man can work as "barrier" for taint, no woman can tell whether taint exists or not. So I assumed that I was stating something that contradicted your observation.

A woman leading a circle will "meld the flow". She draw on saidin through the male chaneller. That's how she feel the taint, but isn't affected by it. See it as the men touching the source. A woman can't tap into saidin on her side. She need the man for that. There is no other way. So the man touch the taint, but not the woman, who only access the One Power.

 

P.S: Taint is not some separate entity. It is glued to Saidin. You cannot peel it off and pass only good Saidin to female channeler. If you could, they won't feel taint at all and if you could, probably you could devise a way to not be affected by it. Accessing one power is not the same as channeling it afterall.

If it is not a separate entity, how did Rand cleanse saidin? We have several description of the taint being a layer of oil on a pool of water (the oil being the taint and the water saidin). they don't mix. Rand couldn't direct the whole taint to Shadar Logoth if it was the same entity as saidin, because saidin is in a way infinite.

 

 

1) What? What again? Rand was controlling both Saidar and Saidin. He explains the sensation of Saidar, how it was so different from Saidin. How would he do that if Saidar wasn't going through his body? He cannot reach female half of power directly but through Nynaeve, he was accessing Saidar.

 

2)She is drawing Saidin. Taint goes where Saidin goes. Taint is not men specific! It's Saidin specific. So it would make sense that if she is accessing Saidin, she is accessing taint too! You are making it sound like taint somehow sticks to men!It sticks to Saidin. Men only channel it.

 

3)Yes, it's floating on top of pure Saidin but men cannot access just Saidin. They access the whole thing. Taint is glued to Saidin. If you are passing Saidin, you are passing taint because they go together. In shadar logoth, Rand didn't direct taint. He was directing the whole Saidin not just the taint. Taint glued to Saidin was infinite too. Won't make sense to have small portion of Saidin being tainted.

 

If you wish, I can quote the whole page from WH.There are various perspectives on this.

 

Also, many times women who have bonded Asha'man have been asked whether Saidin was clean or not. How could they possibly answer that if they didn' know what taint was in first place?

[Demiandre]

He cannot reach female half of power directly but through Nynaeve, he was accessing Saidar

 

This is what I said, too... Just reread my post.

 

Taint glued to Saidin was infinite too. Won't make sense to have small portion of Saidin being tainted.

False. Rand couldn't cleanse saidin if the taint was infinite.

 

Yes, it's floating on top of pure Saidin but men cannot access just Saidin. They access the whole thing. Taint is glued to Saidin. If you are passing Saidin, you are passing taint because they go together

 

I agree, and I didn't say otherwise. They go together ,but aren't as one.

 

How could they possibly answer that if they didn' know what taint was in first place?

I feel like you don't want to understand what I say. that you can feel the presence of the taint on saidin without actually touching it. Like Delving do. You can feel someone injury without being injured yourself.

 

Proves me that women are suffering from the taint. Proves me that men aren't preventing women from being touched by the taint in a circle. I try to give explanations, hints and proofs, but you just keep contradicting by giving false reasons that proves nothing. (But I agree that I made myself unclear about the directing the taint on Shadar Logoth.)

 

I give up. It's impossible to discuss with you.

[WhiskyJack]

He cannot reach female half of power directly but through Nynaeve, he was accessing Saidar

 

This is what I said, too... Just reread my post.

 

Taint glued to Saidin was infinite too. Won't make sense to have small portion of Saidin being tainted.

False. Rand couldn't cleanse saidin if the taint was infinite.

 

Yes, it's floating on top of pure Saidin but men cannot access just Saidin. They access the whole thing. Taint is glued to Saidin. If you are passing Saidin, you are passing taint because they go together

 

I agree, and I didn't say otherwise. They go together ,but aren't as one.

 

How could they possibly answer that if they didn' know what taint was in first place?

I feel like you don't want to understand what I say. that you can feel the presence of the taint on saidin without actually touching it. Like Delving do. You can feel someone injury without being injured yourself.

 

Proves me that women are suffering from the taint. Proves me that men aren't preventing women from being touched by the taint in a circle. I try to give explanations, hints and proofs, but you just keep contradicting by giving false reasons that proves nothing. (But I agree that I made myself unclear about the directing the taint on Shadar Logoth.)

 

I give up. It's impossible to discuss with you.

 

I know, I know obvious is obviously lost on you;)

 

From book:

 

 

Elza allowed herself to be drawn into a link with the stern-faced sister, but she flinched when Merise added her Asha’man Warder to the circle. He was darkly beautiful, but the crystal sword in his hands shone with a faint light, and she could feel the incredible seething tumult that must be saidin. Even though Merise was controlling the flows, the vileness of saidin turned Elza’s stomach. It was a midden heap rotting in a sweltering summer. The other Green was a lovely woman in spite of her sternness, but her mouth thinned as if she, too, were struggling not to vomit

 

 

Saidin flowed through him, all the molten fury and icy tumbling, all the foulness, and he could not control a hair-thin thread. He could see the flow from him into Nynaeve.

 

Alongside the turmoil of saidin, saidar was a tranquil river flowing smoothly. He dipped into that river, and suddenly he was struggling against currents that tried to pull him further in, swirling whirlpools that tried to yank him under. The harder he struggled, the stronger the shifting fluxes grew.. Only an instant since he had tried to control saidar, and already he felt as if he was drowning in it, being swept away into eternity. Nynaeve had warned him what he must do, but it seemed so foreign he had not truly believed until now. With an effort, he forced himself to stop fighting the currents, and as quickly as that the river was tranquil once more.

That was the first difficulty, to fight saidin while surrendering to saidar.

 

Awkwardly, forcing himself to work gently, to use the unfamiliar saidar’s own immense strength to guide it as he wanted, he wove a conduit that touched the male half of the Source at one end and the distantly seen city at the other. The conduit had to be of untainted saidar. If this worked as he hoped, a tube of saidin might shatter when the taint began to leech out of it. He thought of it as a tube, at least, though it was not. The weave did not form at all as he expected it to. As if saidar had a mind of its own, the weave took on convolutions and spirals that made him think of a flower.

 

 

Drawing on saidin, fighting it, mastering it in the deadly dance he knew so well, he forced it into the flowery weave of saidar.. The flow of saidin squeezed in on itself, away from the surrounding saidar, and the saidar pushed it from all sides, compressing it further, making it flow faster. Pure saidin, pure except for the taint, touched Shadar Logoth.