Sul'dam and damane

[Nooska]

Having thought about ir for a day, I think we are ignoring something.

 

We have touched on the "how" of the sul'dam being forgotten as learners, but if there are no teachers the learners are safe enough. Tuon actually said it very concisely - It didn't matter whether she could learn, what mattered was that she chose not to.

So in the highest reaches it may be known or recorded, and simply ignored - if conventional wisdom is that you canonly be held by the adam if you are a damane (and thus dangerous because you cannot) then the shock (to the higher ups) is that a sul'dam will become damane, and thus dangerous.

 

The lack of teachers angle is interesting.

The hole is that, given the meticulous testing methods, there would always be some sul'dam, who became revealed as damane.

So there should not be any shock at the reveal.

 

 

The "Higher ups" in this theory are the imperial familiy and very few trusted da'covale (the ones who maintain the imperial records I'd say) - we saw one of those when Perrin used his letter from Suroth, and I have no problem accepting that they could know and keep it secret.

 

The important point is that the sul'dam being able to learn MUST have been known 1000 years ago, so the information was either hidden or ignored - The problems we are encountering in this debate seem to be most easily resolved by the information being ignored because without teachers they are safe (its an unarmed bomb, compared to a live bomb with a safety mechanism attached (the a'dam).

 

Yes, obviously the knowledge was suppressed/ lost. Again, in the early chaotic years, this would be easy and indeed, your theory that learners could be safely ignored if there was nobody to teach them could work for a while. Until such time as it was discovered that a significant number of suldam actually did become damane.

The bolded part seems to be current day. I'll posit that it isn't a stretch. at -1000 years we have the first leashings (roughly) they suppress the information of learners being safe to ignore. Damane live for several hundred years, sul'dam (probably) don't, so the sul'dam population gets changed faster than the damane population.

For a significant number of sul'dam to be able to channel purely from being complete, a significant amount of time will have to pass as well, I do not think it is unrealistic that it takes a thousand years, simply because the information has to be forgotten first, and the problem never showed up because it was never tested precisely because it was never considered needed (if my "lack of teachers = safe" theory is correct).

[Sharaman]

Having thought about ir for a day, I think we are ignoring something.

 

We have touched on the "how" of the sul'dam being forgotten as learners, but if there are no teachers the learners are safe enough. Tuon actually said it very concisely - It didn't matter whether she could learn, what mattered was that she chose not to.

So in the highest reaches it may be known or recorded, and simply ignored - if conventional wisdom is that you canonly be held by the adam if you are a damane (and thus dangerous because you cannot) then the shock (to the higher ups) is that a sul'dam will become damane, and thus dangerous.

 

The lack of teachers angle is interesting.

The hole is that, given the meticulous testing methods, there would always be some sul'dam, who became revealed as damane.

So there should not be any shock at the reveal.

 

 

The "Higher ups" in this theory are the imperial familiy and very few trusted da'covale (the ones who maintain the imperial records I'd say) - we saw one of those when Perrin used his letter from Suroth, and I have no problem accepting that they could know and keep it secret.

 

The important point is that the sul'dam being able to learn MUST have been known 1000 years ago, so the information was either hidden or ignored - The problems we are encountering in this debate seem to be most easily resolved by the information being ignored because without teachers they are safe (its an unarmed bomb, compared to a live bomb with a safety mechanism attached (the a'dam).

 

Yes, obviously the knowledge was suppressed/ lost. Again, in the early chaotic years, this would be easy and indeed, your theory that learners could be safely ignored if there was nobody to teach them could work for a while. Until such time as it was discovered that a significant number of suldam actually did become damane.

The bolded part seems to be current day. I'll posit that it isn't a stretch. at -1000 years we have the first leashings (roughly) they suppress the information of learners being safe to ignore. Damane live for several hundred years, sul'dam (probably) don't, so the sul'dam population gets changed faster than the damane population.

For a significant number of sul'dam to be able to channel purely from being complete, a significant amount of time will have to pass as well, I do not think it is unrealistic that it takes a thousand years, simply because the information has to be forgotten first, and the problem never showed up because it was never tested precisely because it was never considered needed (if my "lack of teachers = safe" theory is correct).

Suldam do have normal lifespans.

But every suldam (in fact every Seanchan woman) is tested every year until she's 25 or held by the a'dam.

Given that there are huge numbers of suldam, a significant number will always be held by the a'dam even if it's a very small percentage.

Around 0.5% of the population are female channelers (sparkers+learners).

Around 0.4% of the ppoulation are sul'dam assuming 4learner:1 sparker (this seems approx correct from their own PoVs).

For every million of population, that's roughly 4,000 sul'dam

Even if 0.1% of sul'dam are held by the a'dam before reaching 25, that's 4 sul'dam-turned-damane per million population.

Seanchan has a population greater than Westland+ Aiel.

There'd be 1000s of cases over the past ~1000 years.

[Cut Strand]

The Sul'dam revealed as marath'damane are probably the ones that started to see weaves being used before they passed their last testing.

 

In the series, RJ keeps making a point that only women that can manually embrace saidar can see weaves. Nynaeve has to be in her channeling mood.

 

So learners that aren't at least on the cusp of embracing saidar can't see weaves. Perhaps they can't even be controlled by the a'dam (which would explain why some sul'dam don't get caught at all). If that is the case, Tuon might (legitimately) not be marath'damane.

[Sharaman]

The Sul'dam revealed as marath'damane are probably the ones that started to see weaves being used before they passed their last testing.

 

In the series, RJ keeps making a point that only women that can manually embrace saidar can see weaves. Nynaeve has to be in her channeling mood.

 

So learners that aren't at least on the cusp of embracing saidar can't see weaves. Perhaps they can't even be controlled by the a'dam (which would explain why some sul'dam don't get caught at all). If that is the case, Tuon might (legitimately) not be marath'damane.

Tuon was a little puzzled when she saw the weaves melting around Toy. Hence, ---

However RJ once said that she hadn't reached the stage of being caught by the A'dam yet.

[Cut Strand]

But did she see the weaves melt/slide off or did she feel the weaves disappear from Joline's control (was she controlling Joline?)?

[Sharaman]

But did she see the weaves melt/slide off or did she feel the weaves disappear from Joline's control (was she controlling Joline?)?

She was controlling both Jolene & Teslyn -the only time we've seen that done. KoD - the scene where she says she chooses not to channel.

[Rinnsal]

I think the reason the discovery of marath'damane in the ranks of suldam is so shocking, is that they were only discovered by chance - maybe after being able to channel for years - and could easily never have been discovered. That shows, that they aren't dangerous at all, like marath'damane are supposed to be, undermining the whole theory why they must be lashed.

[Sharaman]

I think the reason the discovery of marath'damane in the ranks of suldam is so shocking, is that they were only discovered by chance - maybe after being able to channel for years - and could easily never have been discovered. That shows, that they aren't dangerous at all, like marath'damane are supposed to be, undermining the whole theory why they must be lashed.

Most people assume the shock is for the exact mirror-opposite reason. Living weapons have been running around unsupervised for years.

The sul'dam who discover they can be held by the a'dam, generally volunteer to be leashed.

But either reason taken to its logical conclusion is cause for shock.

[didymos]

Tuon was a little puzzled when she saw the weaves melting around Toy.

 

You assume she saw them. That's not a particularly well-justified assumption. Sul'dam go mostly by feel (and indeed, must do so entirely when new to holding a leash), and that may simply have been what if felt like. Given that cutting flows induces something that feels just like a physical shock to a channeler, I see no reason to think the foxhead ter'angreal doesn't cause a feeling of "melting", which Tuon would in turn certainly feel through the a'dam. In fact, channeling is in many ways just as much tactile as it is visual.

[Jeangray]

 

We have an AOL Aiel channeler POV from Rand's time in the Rhuidean column (TSR) which tells us the guy (it was a boy) had tested positive for channeling ability at 10 (!) so it's possible the Seanchan start that early as well.

 

AoL test (which AS still use and which Taim showed to Rand) reveals potential to learn. It has nothing to do with Seanchan test. IIRC girls spark at 11 or 12 at the earliest and boys at 16 or 18. It is written in the World book, I think.

 

Obviously in the initial Deane period, everyone in the upper echelons of Luthair's army at least and every AS in Seanchan would have known suldam can be damane and vice versa.

 

Actually, I would think it more likely that Seanchan have forgotten about the learners entirely and that only Luthair, whose mother was rumored to be a failed WT initiate, knew about the learners among the invading force. Randland AS are typically very close-mouthed about such things, after all.

And it would have made the whole massive cover-up much more plausible too, if only a few people knew not only that a damane can be sul'dam (Deaine), but also that sul'dam could be damane.

 

In that case, why would they be shocked to find there was the odd outlier suldam who passed tests until 25 and then succumbed later?

 

It is worse than that, IMHO. Girls can test for sul'dam when they come of age at 16 and most do so, because for your typical peasant it is a large rise in status. The _actual_ sparking age for women(according to the World book, IIRC) is 11-21. Which means that young sul'dam or sul'dam in training turning into damane should be far too common to conceal. I really don't see how the system could survive something like that - young sul'dam knowing that they had a chance of 1:20 or higher to get collared themselves, yet remaining convinced that damane are animals.

 

Which is why my theory is that being a sul'dam, wearing the bracelet prevents the sparker from sparking. Maybe being "complete" is enough to satisfy the innate craving of a sparker for OP at the same time as it brings a non-sparker to the edge of channeling.

[Kestrel]

Can a damane put on the bracelet attached to another damane's a'dam?

 

If that is possible, and two damane wear each other's a'dam bracelets, would they be able to channel? Could they form a daisy-chain up to the maximum limit for a circle of women?

 

Of course, damane from Seanchan would not think of doing such a thing, due to extensive cultural conditioning. But newly collared damane from Randland don't have that conditioning. Collared Aes Sedai would probably consider trying this.

[Sharaman]

Can a damane put on the bracelet attached to another damane's a'dam?

 

If that is possible, and two damane wear each other's a'dam bracelets, would they be able to channel? Could they form a daisy-chain up to the maximum limit for a circle of women?

 

Of course, damane from Seanchan would not think of doing such a thing, due to extensive cultural conditioning. But newly collared damane from Randland don't have that conditioning. Collared Aes Sedai would probably consider trying this.

The woman wearing the bracelet has to be in control of the damane-suldam circle. So this is probably not possible. It's been speculated that, a circle of more than two saidar channelers could be formed by only collaring the woman in charge of the circle. We have no instances of this happening.

[Kestrel]

In that case, why would they be shocked to find there was the odd outlier suldam who passed tests until 25 and then succumbed later?

 

It is worse than that, IMHO. Girls can test for sul'dam when they come of age at 16 and most do so, because for your typical peasant it is a large rise in status. The _actual_ sparking age for women(according to the World book, IIRC) is 11-21. Which means that young sul'dam or sul'dam in training turning into damane should be far too common to conceal. I really don't see how the system could survive something like that - young sul'dam knowing that they had a chance of 1:20 or higher to get collared themselves, yet remaining convinced that damane are animals.

 

Which is why my theory is that being a sul'dam, wearing the bracelet prevents the sparker from sparking. Maybe being "complete" is enough to satisfy the innate craving of a sparker for OP at the same time as it brings a non-sparker to the edge of channeling.

OK, then, here's my plot forecast:

 

I suggest that Fortuona, the Seanchan Empress, is a sparker. Just imagine the implications of that revelation.

 

Tuon is 19 years old right now, so she's still in the sparking window. Tuon was probably tested for damane at some point, but her status as Daughter of the Nine Moons meant they left off testing her prematurely. And no one would dare clip an a'dam on the Empress's neck.

 

Successfully testing for sul'dam doesn't automatically rule out the possibility that you can spark. Rather, I'd think that being sensitive to the power makes you more likely to spark. However, except for Tuon, girls who successfully test for sul'dam immediately enter the program, where they develop a culturally-influenced block which prevents them from channeling unless they are linked to an a'dam. Tuon doesn't have that outlet.