What's up with Taim

[Shinobi]

I mean he his clearly a darkfriend with most of the black tower under his control and rand says he can wait untill after TG

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yep, you seem to have disgnosed the situation well.

[Kadere]

Well some people will argue that Taim may in fact just be under the influence of other darkfriends or a Forsaken, but is not himself a darkfriend. Either way he's extremely dangerous, and Rand should be dealing with him, which is why Logain is kinda pissed at Rand for setting him aside.

[Shinobi]

that may be true but when rand is in far madding one of the ashamon he's hunting they have what he is thinking and its somthing like taim told him to kill rand and than mordeth told him to kill rand whitch brings up my point taim and most of the black tower are dark friends

[Taishar Manetheren]

I think you meant Demandred not mordeth..

and i dont think most of the tower are darkfriends just most of the asha'man, those who are trained under taim ,which leaves Logain and the asha'man that are with Rand.

[Luckers]

Pevara's POV in KoD suggests that Taim has 100 men in his close which matches Logain's claim of 50 and 50. Taim has displayed a certain level of... tactlessness, but it is possible that he has more men who arn't so blatantly in his alliegence. Logain claims that all of Taim's men stay with him in KoD, which suggests that it is just those men that are loyal.

 

Personally I think that Taim has been raised to the level of Chosen. And that he was responsible for the attack on Rand in KoD.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Tai'shar Manetheren: I think you meant Demandred not mordeth..

and i dont think most of the tower are darkfriends just most of the asha'man, those who are trained under taim ,which leaves Logain and the asha'man that are with Rand.

 

Actually, it would have been Moridin's "Kill him if you must."

[Shinobi]

Also didn't Taim channel for 13 years(i think) and swo i think he had the darkone's letting him channel without going mad

[Guest Majsju]

Also didn't Taim channel for 13 years(i think) and swo i think he had the darkone's letting him channel without going mad

 

Rand thinks he's been channeling that long, because Rand thinks Taim is older than he is. Taim is in his late 20s, so he has been channeling for 10 years at the most, it might very well be quite a bit shorter than that.

[Luckers]

It could indeed be much later then that since some men don't manifest the spark until 30. That being said Taim's own comments on his past preceding declaring himself Dragon imply at least 8 to 10 years of channeling. I suspect it may even 15 to 20, though he wouldn't want that getting around for the obvious reasons.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Quote "that may be true but when rand is in far madding one of the ashamon he's hunting they have what he is thinking and its somthing like taim told him to kill rand and than mordeth told him to kill rand whitch brings up my point taim and most of the black tower are dark friends"

 

No. Rand fought Kisman and another darkfriend Ashaman. Rand killed the other one but Kisman got away. It then cut off to Kismans POV and he was thinking to himself that both Taim and Demandred told him to kill Rand, and Moridin said kill him if you have to. But while he was thinking about all this Padan Fain killed kisman for trying to kill Rand..."He's mine." Remember?

[Luckers]

Except for the screw up about the name mordeth, is that not what he said?

[Guest Majsju]

I suspect it may even 15 to 20, though he wouldn't want that getting around for the obvious reasons.

 

20 years? You mean he would have started channeling when he was around 8? Sorry mate, but that really doesn't work.

 

The spark manifest itself in men in their late teens, Taim being in his late 20s means 10 years at the most. It's simple math

[Luckers]

If the spark was forced, like with Egwene, then slowing could acount for the age discrepancy. Remember that Nynaeve has already slowed as a result of her limited use of the power--she is 26 yet repeatedly described as being perhaps 20.

 

By her acount she started channeling young--Egwene was 8, which puts Ny at 16. In ten years she's ages four. Now, say Taim sparked at 20 or 22 (or was trained by Ishy, which is equally likely--probably at around the same age, since i find it unlikely Ishy would trust that task to a boy) In 20 years by the same ratio he would have aged around 8 years placing his apparent age at around 28, whilst in fact he is around 40. Or even older... plausibly Taim should slow to a greater degree then Ny since he is stronger, though i doubt it would be to any noticeable difference.

 

So no, i don't think its implausible.

[Guest Majsju]

RJ has flat out stated that Taim is in his late 20s, that's the thing. There is no discrepancy.

[Luckers]

Could you provide me with the quote? I don't doubt you, you're always right on these things, but i would still like to see it.

[Guest Majsju]

Hmmm, right now I can't find where the quote comes from, even though I know I've read it. Wotmania has been kind enough to save the actual quote though, unfortunatly without a proper reference:

 

Jordan: "Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so I’ll tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties."

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=84

[Shinobi]

Also im not sure if this is true but isnt taim from a borderland country and so if him proclaiming himself as the dragon reborn messed up the country enough for trollics to invade it

[Guest Majsju]

Taim is from Saldea, and as far as I can recall there are nothing mentioned about any increase in trolloc activity there when taim is claiming to be DR.

[Luckers]

There isn't.

 

Thanks Maj. Meh, it was an idle thought.

[Yawron]

If Taim is a darkfriend, witch seems likely. He will be a great force, I can't see who of the forsaken strong enough to oppose him.

He has more then hundred loyal channelers behind him.

 

Long live Nae'blis Mazrim Taim!!

[stoneface]

I figured out the riddle of Mazrim Taim.

 

Mazrim Taim and Demandred have both been described as hook-nosed (and we know how RJ loves descriptions), both say “Let the Lord of Chaos Rule,†and they seem to be in lock-step on strategy. I had always felt that they were the same person. Then I read previous posts referring to RJ’s statement that Demandred was not Mazrim Taim. This was quite a shock, since I was very comfortable with my opinion. However, things fell into place later.

 

The light came on while reading a discussion between Kaznen and RobertAlexWillis on nicknames. What a person is called is not necessarily what that person is named.

 

Second, I remembered what Davram Basheare said when he encountered Mazraim Taim while with Rand in one of the later books. I have not checked the exact quote, but it was something like “That’s Mazrim Taim? I guess I didn’t recognize him without his beard.â€

 

Third, how many times has RJ warned us about an Aes Sedai telling the truth? I will accept that RJ stated truthfully that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. The truth that we hear may not be the truth that RJ means. We have read so many sections regarding Mazrim Taim that we all made a crucial wrong assumption. Besides, RJ did not say “RAFO†which appears to be Old Tongue for “Hey, an author has to keep some secrets.â€

 

Summary: Mazrim Taim is a minor character in the overall series. In fact, he has had very little actual narrative, and more of people talking about him. He is a Saldaean, and Saldaean men always grow beards. His conquests and final defeat are mentioned. His trip under Aes Sedai guard to the White Tower was stopped. My opinion is that the attackers were Black Ajah and/or Forsaken, and that nobody survived who was not in on the plot. I presume that Taim was killed and his body destroyed, but RJ could have him in a back pocket somewhere to bring out in the last book.

 

So, who is the M’Hael who calls himself Mazrim Taim? Well, he’s a hook-nosed guy who says “Let the Lord of Chaos Rule†and appears to be doing what Demandred would do if Demandred were posing in his place (hmm, who could that be???). If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, acts like a duck…. But the M’Hael is NOT Mazrim Taim.

[Oregon]

I don't know if this theory has been debunked elsewhere, but I've got to say that it has the ring of truth to it. It certainly seems plausible, and much like the kind of trick I would love to play on an audience if I was an author whose fanbase picked apart every word I wrote.

 

I like this idea much better than Demandred just being some hokey Lugarder despot.

 

Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time we were inside the supposed Mr. Taim's head. Also, I seem to remember (but this is really dim, and possibly not true) thinking that Rand should've done a better job IDing Taim when first they met, since it could easily have been one of the male Forsaken.

 

Adding all of these things together, plus the fact that Lews Therin freaks out (even for his disembodied self) whenever Taim is near or discussed - as if he knows the bastard - I think you are absolutely right, stoneface.

 

(Again, this is presupposing that this theory hasn't been disproven, or shot down by Mr. Jordan at some point in the past).

 

Another benefit, if this is true, is that it neatly ties up/together two of the lingering threads in the final book - simplifying the overall narrative a little bit. Huzzah for that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

Sorry guys. Demandred has never even posed as Mazrim Taim. Elsewhere Jordan said we haven't seen his alter-ego yet, and we've definitely seen Taim.

[Oregon]

Yes. After I posted I started to have a tickling at the back of my brain, and dug up that quote myself. I've seen it before, but just repressed it, I suppose. Oh well, what a shame.

 

Though, I should point out that you chopped off the end of the quote:

 

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you.

 

So, though stoneface may not have it right, it seems like the door isn't entirely slammed (somehow) on some sort of strange and confusing Mazrim Taim/Demandred connection. Though my brain seems to be defogging a bit (thanks to coffee, I assume) and I do remember hearing elsewhere that we've not yet seen Mr. Demandred's alter-ego. Harumph. He probably is some stupid Murandian dictator. Some arch-rival-his-own-mind to the Dragon he turned out to be!

 

I still have hopes that Jordan still has something more exotic up his sleeve than that, but we shall see.