Is this enough

[theblacksmith]

I wish to pose a subject for discussion, I do not have a theory for or against but I am anxious to hear from the experts and just general fans what their take on this is. (Please forgiveme if there is a post concerning this already in place)

 

I am of the opinion, from reading, that the male half of the source was tainted at the sealing of the DO as a result of the male half of the power touching the DO while the seal was put in place. I also am aware that LTT has said it was because the women AS refused to aid in his "Bold Plan" that the DO was able to accomplish this backlash. I believe this was a natural reaction to anythingtouching the TP/DO, the tainting of what it touches, and has been publicised by the followers of the DO as a major blow by the DO at man's supposed greatest victory.

 

To clarify...

1. I do not believe the tainting of the male half of the power was a sentinent thought/action by the DO

2. Ishy/Moridin would try to promote this as fact to prevent a second attempt to do so by warning of the dire consequences (the breaking was great PR)

3. The female half would be just as suceptible to the taint if used to contain the essence of the DO while constructing a seal.

 

My close friend is a new reader and suggest that the 2 working together, based upon the great works accomplished in the AOL would provide a greater seal and would provide a buffer against this taint. I on the other hand believe the AS of AoL have proven little of their knowledge or skill from this wondrous time, and have constantly fallen victim to the modern AS because of their overconfidence. I submit that there has to be MOREthan the 2 working together to justify a need for the DR and as stated above I really think that both halves even as a whole are subject to the pollution of the TP.

 

As evidence LTT says outright when Rand grasp the TP to free himself from Semirhage's clutches LTT p[ractically weeping said you should never touch that It is HIM

In TSR, the POV of Rand's ancestor speaks of the AS who would become Lanfear, discovering a new power that men and women alike could channel, and attempting to reach it on that day. My friend believes this "proper" sealing was accomplished with both halves of the power and is a testament of the 2 working together being successful means. I on the other hand submit that if, IF, this sealing was accomplished by the 2 in concert that it too supports my theory...

 

Why after X thousands of years did thisparticular AS discover this power? I say, if this sealing was done by the 2 in concert that a gradual eating away at this seal had brought it within range of detection (no actual distance mind you I am sure there are dimensional parameters I am ignoring or totally ignorant of) but Is this the first time it is in a position to be detected is my position. If so, why? If it is a gradual weakening due to the proximity or enduring efforts of the DO using the TP to escape would this not demonstrate that the 2 in concert were still vulnerable to the taint? If so then an X-Factor enters the equation, which I submit is the DR (purpose unknown but flabergasted as all other knowledge passed down from this era. Lastly, I believe the pov from the ancestors concerning the intial breach, (if it could be called that) is of a different turning...in that Lanfear did NOT break through the original bore, because the wheel would be on its first rotation, notice the lack of fear and terror of known forsaken (if you will) war is unknown of prior to this, etc.

 

Ok I am anxious to get some feedback so I will stop short, but will try to chime in often because I really want to know if you all believe that just men & women working in concert can seal this prison containing the DO's essence without consequence or will it require something else.

[Agitel]

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at in your post.

 

I don't think they detected the Dark One until that point in the Age of Legends because they weren't technologically advanced enough (or One Powerogically advanced enough) to do so. Saidin and saidar together can make a perfect seal on the Dark One's prison. Yes, saidar could have been tainted, too, if it had touched the Dark One. I believe Lews Therin had a plan to make a better seal, but that without women he couldn't do it as planned and had to do something, and this new tactic resulted in the backlash on saidin. Lews Therin knew the DO needed to be touched. It's my theory that Callandor was to be used for this purpose, but that in addition to a man channeling through it he also needed to be linked to two women for it to work properly, and that somehow this would have served as a buffer against any backlash.

 

Oh, and Lanfear did not break the original bore. The Wheel has turned many times before.

[theblacksmith]

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at in your post.

 

I don't think they detected the Dark One until that point in the Age of Legends because they weren't technologically advanced enough (or One Powerogically advanced enough) to do so. Saidin and saidar together can make a perfect seal on the Dark One's prison. Yes, saidar could have been tainted, too, if it had touched the Dark One. I believe Lews Therin had a plan to make a better seal, but that without women he couldn't do it as planned and had to do something, and this new tactic resulted in the backlash on saidin. Lews Therin knew the DO needed to be touched. It's my theory that Callandor was to be used for this purpose, but that in addition to a man channeling through it he also needed to be linked to two women for it to work properly, and that somehow this would have served as a buffer against any backlash.

 

Oh, and Lanfear did not break the original bore. The Wheel has turned many times before.

 

 

I understand your position is that the (2 powers in concert) will make a perfect seal, but something will be needed for the containment of the "essence" while the seal is being made. You submit that callandor (used properly) will suffice. My theory basically challenges the fact that anything utilizing the one power (whether in concert or individually) is subject to the taint, even if you use callandor, because it lacks the buffer and thus requires the link to manage some level of protection.

 

After some thought I believe the only way to allow a perfect seal using the (2 powers in concert) another source must be used to contain the "essence" while the seal is created/emplaced. The only thing that is beyond being tainted by the DO, is the TP and this must be used to hold him back while the seals are created and emplaced.

 

I am in total agreeance about Lanfear and the many turnings. Never thought of the "Advancement in Power" theory as it relates to the detection, but it was a focal point just added as a rebuttal beforehand. Thanks for feedback hope this clarifies my thoughts better.

[sdelu]

I could agree with some of what you've come up with, but not the rest. I think the weakening of the DO's prison is just as likely an explanation of Lanfear finding the TP as the "technological advancement" of the AoL. If that is the case, and the One Power could not be used to seal the DO without there being a gradual decay, I think that could explain why the DO is still around. He's been sealed in virtually completely before, to the point where the world forgot war and strife, but he still managed to influence super-selfish Lanfear into breaking him free. I don't believe she did it of her own accord, not fully. I mean, how could Lanfear really find out about the TP unless it was somehow "seeping" into the world? Did she just look at this giant prison and say "yeah that probably has some awesome power in it, let's break it open!"

 

This would also be a reasonable explanation for why Lews Therin keeps saying the plans were flawed. Perhaps he has realized that simply sealing the DO behind a OP prison will not truly finish the struggle.

 

On the other hand, I really dislike the theory that the True Power can be turned against the DO. Even if it does happen and everyone who believes it turns out to be right, I will still say it's just plain old stupid. The TP IS the Dark One. How the heck could his own essence be used against himself? Especially if he controls who can and cannot use it? The Moridin link is the "likely" explanation, but the DO would be able to cut everyone off from the TP the moment he realized Rand was channeling it... and how could he not? It's him! It just doesn't make sense that they would be able to pull that off.

 

Unless it's somehow like someone stronger than you taking your hand and hitting you in the face with it. I don't think Rand is going to be "stronger" than the DO, though. We'll see, I guess.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I could agree with some of what you've come up with, but not the rest. I think the weakening of the DO's prison is just as likely an explanation of Lanfear finding the TP as the "technological advancement" of the AoL. If that is the case, and the One Power could not be used to seal the DO without there being a gradual decay, I think that could explain why the DO is still around. He's been sealed in virtually completely before, to the point where the world forgot war and strife, but he still managed to influence super-selfish Lanfear into breaking him free. I don't believe she did it of her own accord, not fully. I mean, how could Lanfear really find out about the TP unless it was somehow "seeping" into the world? Did she just look at this giant prison and say "yeah that probably has some awesome power in it, let's break it open!"

 

This would also be a reasonable explanation for why Lews Therin keeps saying the plans were flawed. Perhaps he has realized that simply sealing the DO behind a OP prison will not truly finish the struggle.

 

On the other hand, I really dislike the theory that the True Power can be turned against the DO. Even if it does happen and everyone who believes it turns out to be right, I will still say it's just plain old stupid. The TP IS the Dark One. How the heck could his own essence be used against himself? Especially if he controls who can and cannot use it? The Moridin link is the "likely" explanation, but the DO would be able to cut everyone off from the TP the moment he realized Rand was channeling it... and how could he not? It's him! It just doesn't make sense that they would be able to pull that off.

 

Unless it's somehow like someone stronger than you taking your hand and hitting you in the face with it. I don't think Rand is going to be "stronger" than the DO, though. We'll see, I guess.

 

I agree with almost everything here, my thoughts also.

 

Excep how Lanfear found the DO prison, it has been suficiantly explained.

 

The AoL channelers had basically run out of ideas. They had done almost everything possible with the OP. SO they started searching for new powers/techniques so they could advance. (Just like we turn to alternate sources of electricty. From Coal to nuclear).

 

The Sharom of the Collam Daan, where the original bore was drilled is now Shayol Ghul. Shayol Ghul is the one place that you can "feel" the DO's presence. This is because it is the "thinnest part of the pattern"

 

So Lanfear could sense (vaguely) the possible power in the "thinness" of the pattern at the Sharom. So she drilled through the "thinness", unleashing the DO.

 

The reason the AoL was so peaceful was because the prison was undamaged, so the DO could not influence the world. The DO could not influence the world while the prison was whole.

[theblacksmith]

I could agree with some of what you've come up with, but not the rest. I think the weakening of the DO's prison is just as likely an explanation of Lanfear finding the TP as the "technological advancement" of the AoL. If that is the case, and the One Power could not be used to seal the DO without there being a gradual decay, I think that could explain why the DO is still around. He's been sealed in virtually completely before, to the point where the world forgot war and strife, but he still managed to influence super-selfish Lanfear into breaking him free. I don't believe she did it of her own accord, not fully. I mean, how could Lanfear really find out about the TP unless it was somehow "seeping" into the world? Did she just look at this giant prison and say "yeah that probably has some awesome power in it, let's break it open!"

 

This would also be a reasonable explanation for why Lews Therin keeps saying the plans were flawed. Perhaps he has realized that simply sealing the DO behind a OP prison will not truly finish the struggle.

 

On the other hand, I really dislike the theory that the True Power can be turned against the DO. Even if it does happen and everyone who believes it turns out to be right, I will still say it's just plain old stupid. The TP IS the Dark One. How the heck could his own essence be used against himself? Especially if he controls who can and cannot use it? The Moridin link is the "likely" explanation, but the DO would be able to cut everyone off from the TP the moment he realized Rand was channeling it... and how could he not? It's him! It just doesn't make sense that they would be able to pull that off.

 

Unless it's somehow like someone stronger than you taking your hand and hitting you in the face with it. I don't think Rand is going to be "stronger" than the DO, though. We'll see, I guess.

 

I get it, so no way he could use the TP against the DO, feel kind of slow now for mentioning it, but I still believe it is the only source of power which cannot be corrupted by coming into contact with the DO.

[Sharaman]

There's a lot of detail that's shady with the earlier posts especially with reference to how the Bore was drilled and where.

Also the DO's counter-strike when he was being sealed appeared to have been deliberate.

But to address the key question, yes, if the AS had used saidar-saidin together, both 1/2s of the OP would have been tainted.

[sdelu]

I agree with almost everything here, my thoughts also.

 

Excep how Lanfear found the DO prison, it has been suficiantly explained.

 

The AoL channelers had basically run out of ideas. They had done almost everything possible with the OP. SO they started searching for new powers/techniques so they could advance. (Just like we turn to alternate sources of electricty. From Coal to nuclear).

 

The Sharom of the Collam Daan, where the original bore was drilled is now Shayol Ghul. Shayol Ghul is the one place that you can "feel" the DO's presence. This is because it is the "thinnest part of the pattern"

 

So Lanfear could sense (vaguely) the possible power in the "thinness" of the pattern at the Sharom. So she drilled through the "thinness", unleashing the DO.

 

The reason the AoL was so peaceful was because the prison was undamaged, so the DO could not influence the world. The DO could not influence the world while the prison was whole.

 

Yes, but the question is WHY was there a thinness in the pattern, and WHY could the DO be sensed. If he were completely sealed away, it shouldn't matter that there is or is not a thinness... but if the seals were to be "eaten away" or were truly unable to seal the tear in the pattern, that would be an explanation as to why there was a thinness.

 

Keep in mind that the DO was sealed off so completely that men forgot what war was. How could he be sealed off like that yet be sensed through a thinness in the pattern? That doesn't seem to add up. It is more likely that the prison either (a) wasn't complete or (b) was "eroding" which provided the "thinness".

 

But perhaps it is just the nature of the DO that he cannot be fully sealed away from the pattern. Thus there is still no way that even a combination of saidin/saidar could do the job. Which, when it comes down to it, has pretty much the same implications as the DO "eating away" at his prison as suggested above.

 

 

The TP when you put it like that sounds as if I am addled, thanks for pointing that out lol "hitting yourself in the face" new favorite quote. But generally we are in agreeance that the 2 power are subject to the tain if they are what is used to contain the DO while placing the seals? And that something else needs to be used?

 

Something along those lines, yes. RJ has stated that if saidar were used it too would have been tainted. As far as I know this also means that if both were used at once both would have been tainted -- I believe LTT says something along those lines in one of the books, but I could be wrong.

 

Either way, it does seem to indicate that there needs to be an intermediary. Some have suggested that Callandor will be able to prevent a second tainting, others have suggested Fain as a buffer, and I believe I have even Rand's soul itself suggested.

 

Whatever the case, it'll be interesting to see what Rand gleans from LTTs memories. I'm sure he can figure something out about what happened.

[theblacksmith]

There's a lot of detail that's shady with the earlier posts especially with reference to how the Bore was drilled and where.

Also the DO's counter-strike when he was being sealed appeared to have been deliberate.

But to address the key question, yes, if the AS had used saidar-saidin together, both 1/2s of the OP would have been tainted.

 

Thanks sorry about the original post was trying to include somethings my friend offered in rebuttal, but I will try to straighten it out later on this morning. The only point, was that the 2 in concert are not enough to avoid that backlash, be it deliberate or not.

[theblacksmith]

I agree with almost everything here, my thoughts also.

 

Excep how Lanfear found the DO prison, it has been suficiantly explained.

 

The AoL channelers had basically run out of ideas. They had done almost everything possible with the OP. SO they started searching for new powers/techniques so they could advance. (Just like we turn to alternate sources of electricty. From Coal to nuclear).

 

The Sharom of the Collam Daan, where the original bore was drilled is now Shayol Ghul. Shayol Ghul is the one place that you can "feel" the DO's presence. This is because it is the "thinnest part of the pattern"

 

So Lanfear could sense (vaguely) the possible power in the "thinness" of the pattern at the Sharom. So she drilled through the "thinness", unleashing the DO.

 

The reason the AoL was so peaceful was because the prison was undamaged, so the DO could not influence the world. The DO could not influence the world while the prison was whole.

 

Yes, but the question is WHY was there a thinness in the pattern, and WHY could the DO be sensed. If he were completely sealed away, it shouldn't matter that there is or is not a thinness... but if the seals were to be "eaten away" or were truly unable to seal the tear in the pattern, that would be an explanation as to why there was a thinness.

 

Keep in mind that the DO was sealed off so completely that men forgot what war was. How could he be sealed off like that yet be sensed through a thinness in the pattern? That doesn't seem to add up. It is more likely that the prison either (a) wasn't complete or (b) was "eroding" which provided the "thinness".

 

But perhaps it is just the nature of the DO that he cannot be fully sealed away from the pattern. Thus there is still no way that even a combination of saidin/saidar could do the job. Which, when it comes down to it, has pretty much the same implications as the DO "eating away" at his prison as suggested above.

 

 

The TP when you put it like that sounds as if I am addled, thanks for pointing that out lol "hitting yourself in the face" new favorite quote. But generally we are in agreeance that the 2 power are subject to the tain if they are what is used to contain the DO while placing the seals? And that something else needs to be used?

 

Something along those lines, yes. RJ has stated that if saidar were used it too would have been tainted. As far as I know this also means that if both were used at once both would have been tainted -- I believe LTT says something along those lines in one of the books, but I could be wrong.

 

Either way, it does seem to indicate that there needs to be an intermediary. Some have suggested that Callandor will be able to prevent a second tainting, others have suggested Fain as a buffer, and I believe I have even Rand's soul itself suggested.

 

Whatever the case, it'll be interesting to see what Rand gleans from LTTs memories. I'm sure he can figure something out about what happened.

 

Thanks you clarified my questions and ideas better than I did :)

 

The thought of Fain as a buffer is a far better theory than someone using the TP against the DO, I also like the idea of The Dragon's Soul being the buffer, because if Men and Women using the power in concert could effectively seal away the DO without being tainted...what would be the purpose of LTT (or the Dragon by any name) being Reborn. That theory is very sound to me, and with the addition of Fain it may provide a way for Rand to live through this without destroying credibility imo.

[Sharaman]

My personal take is that Rand will figure out a way of doing it which will lead to the complete loss of channeling ability for the entire population - perhaps because all saidin+saidar will be deployed in his given method to repair/ renew / plug the GLoD's prison. Then, after a couple of ages, channeling will be forgotten. Then, it will be rediscovered and as people start to tap OP again, the thinness will become apparent because they will weaken the wall between the prison and WoTverse. Then Meirin+Beidomon will be reborn and do their stuff, etc.

[theblacksmith]

My personal take is that Rand will figure out a way of doing it which will lead to the complete loss of channeling ability for the entire population - perhaps because all saidin+saidar will be deployed in his given method to repair/ renew / plug the GLoD's prison. Then, after a couple of ages, channeling will be forgotten. Then, it will be rediscovered and as people start to tap OP again, the thinness will become apparent because they will weaken the wall between the prison and WoTverse. Then Meirin+Beidomon will be reborn and do their stuff, etc.

 

Really? I see the merit in this as it would force the populace to focus more on the science and enter into an age of enlightenment which would be needed to have all of the stuff seen through the aiel ancestor vision. While at the same time it would relieve the fear of anyone channeling o when it would be discovered anew, it too would be a wondrous thing.

 

However, I am curious as to what options do you forsee Rand having to "figure it out"

 

I like the Rand's Soul as a Buffer theory above for the sacrifice, and Fain's soul for the buffer which allows Rand to Live...hmmm think I will ask about this on another thread but I will wait to see if someone can link me to an existing thread about this.

[Sharaman]

RJ once made a statement to the effect that there are ages when channeling is completely forgotten. Also WoT is Earth in another age-time - he confirmned that when he clarified that Mosk fighting Ameria with nuclear weapons, Queen Elizabeth, etc was a distorted memory of the Cold War, QEII, etc. So what better time to eliminate channeling - automatically solving the whole Seanchan issue, channeling outliving non-channelers, fear of rogue AS, mad Ashaman, etc, than something that gets rid of the GLoD?

How is really a question of authorial omnisicence so I can't forsee it. If you're asking how I'd write it, well I'm a very different person from RJ and it isn't my universe.

[theblacksmith]

RJ once made a statement to the effect that there are ages when channeling is completely forgotten. Also WoT is Earth in another age-time - he confirmned that when he clarified that Mosk fighting Ameria with nuclear weapons, Queen Elizabeth, etc was a distorted memory of the Cold War, QEII, etc. So what better time to eliminate channeling - automatically solving the whole Seanchan issue, channeling outliving non-channelers, fear of rogue AS, mad Ashaman, etc, than something that gets rid of the GLoD?

How is really a question of authorial omnisicence so I can't forsee it. If you're asking how I'd write it, well I'm a very different person from RJ and it isn't my universe.

 

The "How" question was in reference to what/how did you believe Rand would figure it out, but it really is moot...guess I just did not want the thread to end :)

Yeah, I see our point, now would be a good time for this age to come into play and what better age for "magic to fade into myth...thanks for everything, I enjoyed hearing your points and finally started hashing together my theory of how this will end (alway enjoyed reading other's theories but mostly wanted to take the ride this time) I feel I have a better understanding because of our dialogue and of those who contributed, so I want to extend my thanks.