How is Rand able to channel the True Power?

[Vermillion]

I think it is the link. From what I gather Rand would need to have the link like he cut from Ishamael which you have to go to SG to get. I think the link between Moridin showed him how to assume the voided need for TP and allowed him to channel through his SG link.

 

This begs the question does Rand have the black strand. I know it was for the filter but I think it was also access to TP.

 

OK, why do you think that? Why do you need a filter to channel the TP? The Dark One is everywhere, he's just most accessible at Shayol Ghul, so why is it necessary that Rand have gone there to have such a link to the TP/DO?

 

We know that the DO gave access to the TP to about 30 people during the War of Power before the Taint existed, which meant they did not need filters. Yes, we have seen the DO require his followers to come to the bore to receive his touch, but he can be elsewhere (as evidenced by the twisting of the world when Rand named shai'tan in the Great Hunt).

 

We also know that women don't need the filters and do not have the black strands. As far as I recall, but feel free to correct me, no one ever saw black strands around Lanfear, Semirhage, or any of the rest.

 

Unless you've got something pretty hefty to support your claim, it doesn't make sense for the filter to be a requirement of channeling the TP. Which likely means it is unnecessary for Rand to be channeling the TP through Moridin. Which further means it is likely Rand was channeling the TP on his own, and the DO simply made it accessible to Rand to push him over the edge.

 

I think you certainly have to marked to use TP. You need to be marked to control shadowspawn I think it safe to say that you need to be marked to use TP even if the black strands have nothing to do with it.

[Phelix]

Why would you have to be marked to use the TP? You can only draw on the TP with the Dark One's express will and permission. It's not like he's a large trolloc that needs to be told who can and who cannot use the TP. It's his power.

 

The reason you have to be marked to control the trollocs is because they are inherently violent creatures that seek to kill and destroy humanity, so obeying a human is against their nature. Having the DO's mark showing that you are to be obeyed by his creatures makes sense.

 

The two are entirely different things that don't relate. It's like comparing apples and bacon. (To borrow a phrase I heard at a bar in Washington DC last weekend.)

[Vermillion]

Why would you have to be marked to use the TP? You can only draw on the TP with the Dark One's express will and permission. It's not like he's a large trolloc that needs to be told who can and who cannot use the TP. It's his power.

 

The reason you have to be marked to control the trollocs is because they are inherently violent creatures that seek to kill and destroy humanity, so obeying a human is against their nature. Having the DO's mark showing that you are to be obeyed by his creatures makes sense.

 

The two are entirely different things that don't relate. It's like comparing apples and bacon. (To borrow a phrase I heard at a bar in Washington DC last weekend.)

 

The problem is that DO is bound, imprisoned, exiled or whatever. The thinnest in the Pattern is everywhere but manifested in SG. Throughout the series we have seen that SG(not to mention is connection to Lords of the Ring) is the place where the DO interacts. I am almost certain that there needs to be a link between the DO and the channler to give access to TP. I am certain this link was Moridin.

[Phelix]

The Dark One's avatar, the living flesh that houses his will, was present in that situation. Shaidar Haran was in the same house as Rand and the rest of them. If you need some special mark just from being in the presence of the Dark One, then that counts.

 

No matter how certain you are, you've not presented facts or logic.

 

Why does a deity need to mark who can use its power? Why, when the TP is discussed in the books, does no one mention being marked? We've had several of the Forsaken give Points of View while thinking about the TP, surely one of them would have mentioned having to be marked by the DO in his presence in Shayol Ghul if it was necessary.

[OptimusPrime]

Why would you have to be marked to use the TP? You can only draw on the TP with the Dark One's express will and permission. It's not like he's a large trolloc that needs to be told who can and who cannot use the TP. It's his power.

 

The reason you have to be marked to control the trollocs is because they are inherently violent creatures that seek to kill and destroy humanity, so obeying a human is against their nature. Having the DO's mark showing that you are to be obeyed by his creatures makes sense.

 

The two are entirely different things that don't relate. It's like comparing apples and bacon. (To borrow a phrase I heard at a bar in Washington DC last weekend.)

 

The problem is that DO is bound, imprisoned, exiled or whatever. The thinnest in the Pattern is everywhere but manifested in SG. Throughout the series we have seen that SG(not to mention is connection to Lords of the Ring) is the place where the DO interacts. I am almost certain that there needs to be a link between the DO and the channler to give access to TP. I am certain this link was Moridin.

 

And yet when Rand and Moridins balefire connected them it began the merge, so the mark, permission, whatever, begins to exist in two place at once. So Rand could get the True Power, through the connection. Which is not semi Deus Ex Machina at all.

[Aiyen kin Leary]

How is Rand able to channel the True Power?

 

BECAUSE I SAID SO.

[Vermillion]

The Dark One's avatar, the living flesh that houses his will, was present in that situation. Shaidar Haran was in the same house as Rand and the rest of them. If you need some special mark just from being in the presence of the Dark One, then that counts.

 

No matter how certain you are, you've not presented facts or logic.

 

Why does a deity need to mark who can use its power? Why, when the TP is discussed in the books, does no one mention being marked? We've had several of the Forsaken give Points of View while thinking about the TP, surely one of them would have mentioned having to be marked by the DO in his presence in Shayol Ghul if it was necessary.

 

 

OK logic...

 

The One Power of what know through healing stilling goes through a link to the soul to somewhere unknown... creator, the wheel, etc. True Power is implied that it is the DO himself. The DO is outside the pattern and can only manifest in SG where thinnest in the Pattern manifest. Logic dictates that in order to give permission for a link and to form that link to the DO you need to go to SG.

 

We have seen before that the link with Saidin that Rand and Elan have they see each others face almost like they pull and release the TS through their BF link and then through each others TS link rather than their own TS link. That or resonance of TS link is causing them to merge when one of them channels. It is not that far off a step that things more personal become shared the stronger the link gets. We assume that a mark that allows TP is personal. We see in the scene he channels TP that he assumes the special void out of despair and/or Moridin merging to feel TP. He reaches for it and then sees a clouded face and then he fills with TP. Unless the clouded face is the DO himself(do you think the DO has a face?) then he's pulling it through his link to Moridin and then accessing TP.

 

1. TP user has a link to DO like TS has link to soul of a channler.

2. To get a link to the DO you need to go to SG.

3. Rand and Moridin have a BF link causing them to merge with TS usage.

3. Rand uses TP void, feels TP and sees a face but unlike TS it comes during reaching for TP instead of after touching and on release. Then he fills with TP.

 

That implies to me. TP void -> Cloudy face (Moridin) -> TP(DO)

Edited September 18, 2010 by Vermillion

[jamesgun]

Can Rand channel both sources at the same time?

Do you think if he can that thats what it will take to defeat the dark one in the last battle?

[Phelix]

Vermillion,

 

You assume that you have to have a "link" to the DO to channel the TP, and that to get this "link" you must go to Shayol Ghul. These two assumptions underpin your whole argument, but there is no support for the assumptions.

 

Further, you assume that there is a special kind of void to reach the TP, which is again a flawed assumption. All we know is that Rand "snapped" and went a bit sociopathic. We do not know that it is a new kind of void.

 

All of your assumptions are easily answered by the fact that the DO, a deity, can choose who has access to his power at will. We know that the DO was actively manipulating this situation, hence Shaidar Haran, and we know that this Avatar has many of the DO's abilities to warp reality. He's shielded people, he's made the True Source entirely disappear from a Channeler's perspective. Shaidar Haran is, effectively, a mobile Shayol Ghul.

 

IF, and I do emphasize the IF, one needs to be in the presence of the DO to receive his permission to channel the TP, then having Shaidar Haran there counts.

 

So, please explain why you need to have a link to the DO to channel the TP, and why that link must be established at Shayol Ghul. Why is the Dark One's will and permission not enough?

[Vermillion]

Vermillion,

 

You assume that you have to have a "link" to the DO to channel the TP, and that to get this "link" you must go to Shayol Ghul. These two assumptions underpin your whole argument, but there is no support for the assumptions.

 

Further, you assume that there is a special kind of void to reach the TP, which is again a flawed assumption. All we know is that Rand "snapped" and went a bit sociopathic. We do not know that it is a new kind of void.

 

All of your assumptions are easily answered by the fact that the DO, a deity, can choose who has access to his power at will. We know that the DO was actively manipulating this situation, hence Shaidar Haran, and we know that this Avatar has many of the DO's abilities to warp reality. He's shielded people, he's made the True Source entirely disappear from a Channeler's perspective. Shaidar Haran is, effectively, a mobile Shayol Ghul.

 

IF, and I do emphasize the IF, one needs to be in the presence of the DO to receive his permission to channel the TP, then having Shaidar Haran there counts.

 

So, please explain why you need to have a link to the DO to channel the TP, and why that link must be established at Shayol Ghul. Why is the Dark One's will and permission not enough?

 

Where is proof that SH was in the house in the first place. He freed the Forsaken is all we know. And you complain about assumptions.

 

 

Something snapped inside of him. He grew cold; then that coldness vanished, and he could feel nothing. No emotion. No anger.

 

At that moment he grew aware of a strange force. It was like a reservoir of water, boiling and churning just beyond his view. He reached toward it with his mind.

 

A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out. It was gone in a moment.

 

And Rand found himself filled with an alien power. Notsaidin, not saidar, but something else. Something he'd never felt before.

 

I took this from this very post.

 

From that point on in the TGS he didn't assume a void where his emotions were distant or felt like someone else's. He assumed the void where he felt no emotion and had a dark aura around him. He also could then feel True Power. It's not that big of an assumption that new void + new power = connection.

 

From what we know of healing of stilling is that there was snap in the link to channel. From what Robert Jordan said is that ability to channel is linked to the soul and its manifestation is through the body(though forsaken seem to go against this but DO is lord of the grave). Not a big assumptions that there is a link to ones soul RJ states it. It's also not a big assumption since non-channlers cannot use TP that the link to TS is the same used for TP. Since the DO is not part of the pattern it is also safe to assume that TP link must be formed at SG where the DO can directly interact with the world.

 

The TS is either directly from or the creator or from his creation the wheel. Evidence lends to the fact that the TS is from the Wheel, the driving force of the Wheel. That's what legend says. The Wheel is essentially reality, thus everywhere. The DO is outside the pattern but due to the bore he can effect the world with his corruption, chaos and destruction. His direct effect is SG where the thinnest manifest. It is not a far stretch that the DO needs channelers to come to SG to form a link to divert his essences through the link of TS and someone's soul.

 

Even if there is no link need between the TP and a channeler besides permission, the face seen before accessing TP implies it went through the link without the DO's permission. The question I have is why plot to turn Rand to the Shadow with an idea that may or may not work vs. just turning him 13x13?

[A Humble Name]

On 9/15/2010 at 11:20 PM, Dagon Thyne said:

I was under the impression that one had to be linked directly to the Dark One in order to be able to touch the True Power...but Rand was able to without such a link......

 

For awhile, I was thinking that it could be because of the link between himself and Moridin.

 

Can somone clarifiy this for me?

 

[A Humble Name]

All of you are thinking of lore over the writers thoughts.  Great effort had been gone through to explain the link between rand and Moridon.  Which was the reason for this ability.  This would not have been done without a reason.  Clearly the reason for this is to give rand the excuse to be able to channel the true power.  It also offers a tantalizing new excitement for readers since Rand had done everything possible up till now (pretty much) and we were starting to get disinterested with him.  So the writers reinforced the link with he and moridon to create his ability to channel the true power, overcome our frustrations with Aes Sedai, save Min, and kill semirhag, and taste a new devestating power all in one go. The lore is what the author says it is, just pay attention to detail and usually it is explained, although occasionally it is missed but this is rare with Robert Jorden.  Remember he spoke of Lews Therin in the prologue of the first book, so he must have thought out a great deal in advance.  Brandon Sanderson also is familiar with his books not to mention must have his notes.  To answer the question of course rand can channel the true power, that’s exactly what he did. And damnit I loved it.

[DojoToad]

ZOMBIE...

[KennyJ]

Rand is the Dragon Reborn, as said, the Lights Champion, any chance to bring him to the DO side will be allowed by the DO. By  allowing him to touch the TP the DO can directly influence and entice him.