DragonRebornMount - A theory to how it all ends

[IUnknown]

Here goes:

 

Rand must break the seals to set the DO free in order to make a new, stronger prison. This he does with the help of Alivia, who he links with. Together they draw massive amounts of both sides, and turning Shayol Ghul into the DragonRebornMount.

 

As for Rand, he is burned out. Without the power one feels "dead", so in this sense he dies. But he does not physically die. Without power he cannot lead, and this is where Logain takes power, achieving his glory.

[Luckers]

I find it unlikely. For starters if Rand is using the Choedan Kal, which seems more then likely, then anything Alivia would draw would be less then negligable.

 

Remember too, last time LTT wanted a circle of six men and seven women of a level of strength such that there were only a few women equal to the task, which likely means women as strong as Alivia anyway.

 

Also, even with the nature of the Wheel of Time, RJ has never been overly given to circular plot structure. The nature of his story has always been focused on the present and the future not what occured in the AOL, so A) i doubt the series ending with the making of a new Dragonmount. B) i dont think the series will end with a new sealing of the bore.

 

Finally, the evidence suggest a death of some form... even though in most of them the body has been masked, or crumbled to dust, or whatever. The nature of foretelling demands something more then simply 'feeling dead' or Rand faking his death. I suspect that Moridin and Rand will trade bodies, and Alivia will kill Moridin in Rands body... but who knows.

[IUnknown]

A couple of things. First, I find it interesting that you think a series known as the "Wheel of Time" might not have something circular in its ending. Second, the DO is not going to be killed. All the books talk of no beginnings or endings to the WOT. There have also been numerous mentions of how this has all happened before. So, it is back to prison for DO.

 

Lastly, LTT did not need any help to make Dragonmount. That was done by him alone drawing power. R+A could do much more.

[Luckers]

You will note that i said circular plot structure. I had a feeling people might jump on me for saying that. The Wheel of Time is a concept he's developed. The nature of his reality, but it has had nothing to do with his writing style.

 

Which is, to my mind, a good thing. He could very easily have fallen into a post humous text, dealing as much with the events of the past 3000 years as the present. And Au Contrair, i would say that one of his big themes is that whats past is past in truth. He's shown this numerous times in his treatment of the Forsaken, the Aes Sedai and countless others. I rather doubt that he will get 'back-to-the-begining' at this late stage in the text.

 

Lastly, LTT did not need any help to make Dragonmount. That was done by him alone drawing power. R+A could do much more.

 

I don't disagree that Rand could make a mountain if he chose too. What that has to do with fighting the Dark One or anything else for that matter i dont know, but he'd likely be able to do it. No, my comment was on sealing the bore. LTT did not do that alone, nor was it ever his plan to use only one women.

[IUnknown]

LTT did not die/burn out sealing the bore. He also did not do so swell a job of it given that it is failing. All indications are that Rand is not going to walk away from the last battle. LTT did walk away from his attack. The purpose of creating a new Dragonmount would for that to seal the prison, and more effectively than the seals.

 

I don't suppose it needs to be Alivia as the only one who helps him, but she is the only one identified. If Rand does not walk away, I don't think anyone who helps him will walk away either, but who knows?

 

Anyway, let's see if anyone else has anything to add.

[Zardi]

How would a new Dragonmount seal the bore? It isn't a physical barrier that's needed, because the bore is not a physical hole in anything. It does happen to be felt more at Shayol Ghul, but simply blocking off Shayol Ghul physically will not keep the Dark One from touching the world.

[Luckers]

And how would a rock mountain be more secure then ceundillar anyway? If it was a matter of that i doubt Rand would need to kill himself to make one... remember Dragonmount was a side-effect of LTT killing himself, not the cause of it.

 

Also the ammount of power LTT put into sealing the bore has nothing to do with the strength of the bore. It was a matter of finesse, not strength... if he'd wanted strength his original plan would have involved a circle of 72 and likely as many angreal and sa'angreal as he could get his hands on.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, since the Bore isn't physical in nature, a new Mountain wouldn't help at all. And with the Choedan Kal, Rand could build a mountain RANGE without working up a good sweat. I think using the Power to seal the bore is a flawed idea. The Bore has to restored to it's original natural state, not patched. Any patch will be flawed. I'm not sure the Power is actually involved at all, but if it is, then I think it is simply used to remove the Dark One's direct influence from keeping the Bore open, sort of like someone holding a door open, and another person knocking their hand away. The only thing is, that to avoid holding the Bore open himself, Rand would have to push all the way through and enter the Prison himself, holding the Dark One at bay there long enough for the Pattern to heal the Bore. Since the Prison is not a physical place, he would leave his body behind on that trip, and that pretty much makes him dead. Perhaps Alivia is able to give him a "push" through into the Prison, thereby "helping" him die. The only question is, with the Bore gone, how does he get back? This may be related to his being tied to the Wheel, since he is PART of the Pattern he may be able to rejoin it from without, whereas the Dark One is unable to penetrate it unless someone inside the Pattern is helping him.

 

Anyway, thats my current idea. Feel free to pick it apart.

[Luckers]

I like it, though i doubt he'd just leave it to the pattern to heal. He'd probably have someone waiting to manipulate it in someway.

 

I don't think it will happen personally--no idea why, and i really do like the theory... but yeah, just doesn't gel with me.

 

Though i suspect you are right--no re-sealing it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well .... the only way I know of to manipulate the Pattern without using the Power, is through ta'veren ... and we do have a couple of those floating around dont we .... Min doesn't see the sparks winning unless all three ta'veren are present. And RJ did hint we might get to see inside the Prison. Of course ... RJ does like to play with us.

[Luckers]

Also it has been said that channelers can sometimes artificially recreate the effects of ta'veren... which implies more control. I dont think rand would trust it to mere ta'verenism.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That is true. :lol: I don't know why I'm so resistant to the idea of the Power being the solution, but I am.

[jb_kal]

I've always just sort of thought that Rand's (and to a lesser extent maybe the other two Ta'veren) "ta'vern-ness" is the key to winning the last battle more than anything else. I also believe whatever Rand has to do won't be done with the power, I mean the Dark One has relatively little influence over reality as it is now and look what he is capable of, and I am assuming that when Rand goes to TG and breaks open the seals that noone will be able to stand toe-to-toe with the DO. Personally, I believe the key will be Rand breaking the seals, allowing the block in the Bore to dissipate, and then dying/being killed and releasing all these threads in the pattern he has gathered around himself by being such a massive Ta'Varen to just settle back into the age lace normally and patch up the hole. (I guess in order to subscribe to this thought you also have to believe as I [and others I believe, not sure what the consensus here at DM is], that the Pattern itself [and therefore reality] is the DO's prision).

 

By no means do I think it is as simple as Rand traveling to SG and dropping dead, but I still know its probably a little bit of a loony theory and full of holes.

[Luckers]

LTT was ta'veren too though. And whilst, yes, there is also Mat and Perrin to take into account, somehow i dont see Rand leaving this up to the chance that their ta'verenism will somehow fix things... Mat might have, but not Rand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Lews Therin Telamon was indeed precisely as ta'veren as Rand al'Thor, since they are the same soul tied to the wheel. But did Lews Therin have two other powerful ta'veren for backup? We don't know for sure, but their existence is not mentioned if he did. Maybe thats why Mat and Perrin make the difference.

[KaptainKaos]

The main part of the theory that IUnknown has written that I don't quite go along with is the first sentence where he says that the Dark One must be set free to make a new prison. The Dark One has never been set completely free of his prison as I recall, the Creator bound him in the Bore at the moment of Creation. So, if he is set free how do we know anything short of the Creator coming and binding him again could stop him. I also don't think that Rand will be burned out in the end as a solution to the prophecies about him. He has been told "To live, you must die." I really don't think that means to live you must be burnt out... just my take.

[Luckers]

Yeah i agree with the Kaptain. In addition i rather doubt the Dark One CAN be free short of the destruction of the pattern... i suspect he's a bit too fat.

[n00l3y]

Well, I think that the power would be used in some way to stop the DO. I'm not sure HOW the DO will be stopped, but I think it involves the power simply because there is no other source of magic powerful enough to create something which will bind the DO.

 

I do not feel inclined to believe that RJ would do something similar to Harry Potter by making the main antagonist be stopped by love. He's too realistic for that. Love will save Rand, if he is to ever be saved, but not love, hope, or any other thing like that will stop the DO.

 

But, like Luckers said, I doubt an identical repeat of the AoL would take place.

[demonspawn]

Its a feeling I've had for a while (A whole day in fact) that it could be Lews Therin Telamon,and not Rand himself, who will face the Dark One in the final battle in some sort of "spiritual battle". It could be the reason that Alivia? has to help Rand to die.

 

It doesn't necessarily mean it will be the end of Rand especially the way Nynaeve has been going on about the fact that death cannot be healed. She may come up with something. But probably not.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing the significance of Rand and Ishamael's "merging?" after their streams of balefire in Shadar Logoth.

[bjclinton]

something to keep in mind and remember as we all think about how the last battle will go-

 

RJ has said over and over again that when he started writing this series that he knew exactly how it started and exactly how he wanted it to end....and that the ending hasn't changed. This explains why Moiraine has to be there in the end in order for him to succeed- this was supposed to be a Trilogy (lol)- seriously, so of course Moiraine would never have died in the first place....

anyway, i digress- I think that Rand is going to find a way to recreate the DO's prison by using the one power. I think its going to be a very painful and difficult struggle that will nearly tear the soul out of Rand, before he wins, but in the end it will be the OP that will save them. Mat and Perrin becoming very strong Ta'vern was almost an afterthought that started to develop as the storyline progressed and the "wheel of time" grew with RJ's world. But to boil it down to basics, the ending that RJ will show us, is the same ending that would have fit into his originally sketched 3 book series, so I don't think there are going to be any ultra-crazy and surprising twists. I think the details actually leading up to the LB will be completely chaotic and climactic, but the LB itself will be raw, painful and very reminicent of the type and style of writing that we see in the prologue of the EOTW where LTT has just town the world down around him. I think its going to be just what we have all grown to love about RA- An internal battle focused on his struggling to win- the strength of his Two Rivers Spirit, combined with the soul of LTT, combined with the experiences that has made him the man he has become-

 

The Dragon Reborn!

[grandpoobah]

Again, Im new to this site, so what ive said might well have been said by somebody else, or it might be completely wrong, but i believe there is something ppl are missing here.

LLT sealed the bore with the 7 seals in the AOL. This means that the DO was able to touch the world to some extent before that, but not completely free, obviously, as he would have just wasted everything in existence. When the 7 seals are broken, it doesn't necessarily mean that the DO is free, does it? The exact quote i remember is just that he can touch the world with more strength than any time since the AOL. Something like that. So, he doesn't actually have to be completely free. Therefore, Rand will go into the prison, like somebody already said, and sacrifice himself so that the rest of his mob can put the patch back over the bore. Perhaps having 3 ta'veren at the same spot in the pattern, coupled with the thinness caused by Shayol Ghul in the first place will allow Rand, Matt and Perrin to be pushed by Alivia into the prison?

Just a thought...

[n00l3y]

True, yet we can already see that the DO's strength is steadily rising. If all 7 seals are broken, I doubt even Mat, Perrin and Rand working together could do anything more than delay the DO. However, if they were replaced using a different style which would stop/paralyze the DO for many more years to come, that too would be effective.

 

Another observation I have made is that although TG would be a battle of Light vs the Shadow, Rand's preparations have been focusing mostly on the battle itself. Although the outcome of the fight is no doubt important, Rand has not really prepared himself for what he must do to defeat the DO, focusing instead on musteringof troops, politics and truces with various nations. As a result, I doubt it would be a face to face encounter between Rand and the DO with cataclysmic action, for RJ would surely have noted it. I believe most of the before-hand work would be done by Egwene, Nynaeve, Verin, etc, with Rand finishing it with the help of the Choedan Kal.

 

By before-hand work, I mean like forming cuendillar, getting the necessary tools, fetching the horn of valere, so on.

[grandpoobah]

With the cuendillar...why not just make yourself armour made of cuendillar? You'd be invincible...unless of course the force you exert upon putting in on counts as force against it, thus making it impossible to put on.

Surely they have to do more than 'delay the dark one'. If not, theyve lost. I agree with the person saying they need to push him back into his prison, otherwise the world is gone.

[Limedust]

I am not convinced that the "Wheel" as a concept is going define the end of the series. Yes, we know, there are no beginnings and no endings to the wheel of time . . . but too much seems to point to a destruction of the wheel to me. I think it strange that many, many theories concerning the end do not take into account Ishamael's rantings in their entirety. He makes reference to the breaking of the wheel and of the complete stoppage of a progression of ages. Now, I don't know that that would be pleasant, but it bears some study. Also, the wheel itself seems a stagnant concept, one in which the same major occurrences take place again and again. It seems to me that the "Last Battle" is aptly named by prophesy . . . there is no evidence to support the assertion that "Last Battles" as such took place during other ages. I would definately not consider Lews Therin's sealing up of the Dark one a last battle, though I suppose if there had been another last battle it would have taken place what, at least 1 or two ages prior to the age of legends? (Aren't there supposed to be seven ages to the wheel?)

 

Anyhow, Herid Fel's assertions about the wheel seem a Red herring to me . . . and intersting way to throw us off course. His rubble comment makes sense, but I wonder if he didn't get back to Rand to try to tell him that the only way to actually have a "Last Battle" was to break the wheel.

 

SOrry for rambling and what I can only term incoherency.

[Limedust]

--I don't think "incoherency" is a word . . . but feel free to use it if you like. The copyright hasn't come through yet.--