Did Cadsuane bluff Rand?

[ashaman kingpin]

I reread parts of the Gathering Storm today and read specifically Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount that Lews Therin's voice was never real.  But it seems like Rand formed that alter personality because he was unable to come to terms with what Lews Therin, or better yet himself, did during the Age of Legends to his family and the breaking of the world etc.  So that seams like a defense mechanism specific to Rand, the Dragon.  If that is the case, then how did Cadsuane surmise that Rand was hearing voices in his head?  Was that a sign of madness caused by the taint?

 

 

Yah!! Been coming to this board forever but this is my first post.

[Mr. Micawber]

  If that is the case, then how did Cadsuane surmise that Rand was hearing voices in his head?  Was that a sign of madness caused by the taint?

 

Yes. She mentions this in the very first scene in which she appears, and Semirhage confirms it in KOD.

 

Now, did she bluff him?

 

No, she just got really, really, really lucky that Rand's goodness - much of which he derived from the man he almost killed - allowed him to make a breakthrough and reintegrate.

 

She trod a very fine line that, had things gone ever so minutely in the wrong way, could have resulted in the obliteration of existence, the unraveling of the Pattern and time itself, and as a result, the full and complete victory of The Big Guy.

[Loophole]

I am Rand! I am ME!

 

thats basically what he was like, I don't think it was purely the inability to deal with the disasters LTT had caused. it was also his inability to accept that LTT memories were also part of him now, and refusing to accept the memories as his own.

 

Maybe this falls flat though because Mat had other peoples memories jammed into his head and he didn't go bonkers. Maybe because mat had so many diff peoples memories its a bit harder to make a split personality to contain all of them or he just didn't care as much.

 

But maybe other channelers that go mad really do just go good old everyday mad and talk to themselves without someone else's memories. I think she just got lucky, properly diagnosed the symptoms but guessed the incorrect source.

[OptimusPrime]

Listen to this.

 

Channeling is addictive, we all know this. Aside from the heightened senses and the ecstasy that comes with holding the Power, it distances you from yourself. Rand, a warrior, feels like its someone elses body thats being stabbed and whatnot, and he cant even feel emotions. By the time Moiraine is gone, Rand has to really drive home to himself that shes gone to get a reaction out of himself, and when that reaction came he didnt even know until Aviendha asked why he was crying.

 

Channeling makes it feel like its all happening to someone else. Channeling being addictive, so addictive that rand even notes later on that not holding saidin is an inconvenience because he finds it harder to ignore all the little things that irritate.

 

Lews Therins forming, I think, was not only there to blcok out the suffering or make the memories something he can understand. Its also a side effect of being addicted to channeling. Rand continuously lectures himself that he is a weapon, that he doesnt feel any emotion, and through channeling he doesnt even feel his own pain. It becomes someone elses pain.

 

Lews Therins pain, of course. The other male channelers Cadsuane encountered, I think, suffered from the same thing, an addiction to channeling that made them think there was someone else in their head, because they couldnt feel half the stuff they experience any more.

[Ishmayl]

I am Rand! I am ME!

 

Just for curiosity's sake (and not really on topic), is that a reference to Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn?  Not that other fantasy/SF stories don't use similar themes, but it features heavily in that series, as far as I remember.

[ashaman kingpin]

Listen to this.

 

Channeling is addictive, we all know this. Aside from the heightened senses and the ecstasy that comes with holding the Power, it distances you from yourself. Rand, a warrior, feels like its someone elses body thats being stabbed and whatnot, and he cant even feel emotions. By the time Moiraine is gone, Rand has to really drive home to himself that shes gone to get a reaction out of himself, and when that reaction came he didnt even know until Aviendha asked why he was crying.

 

Channeling makes it feel like its all happening to someone else. Channeling being addictive, so addictive that rand even notes later on that not holding saidin is an inconvenience because he finds it harder to ignore all the little things that irritate.

 

Lews Therins forming, I think, was not only there to blcok out the suffering or make the memories something he can understand. Its also a side effect of being addicted to channeling. Rand continuously lectures himself that he is a weapon, that he doesnt feel any emotion, and through channeling he doesnt even feel his own pain. It becomes someone elses pain.

 

Lews Therins pain, of course. The other male channelers Cadsuane encountered, I think, suffered from the same thing, an addiction to channeling that made them think there was someone else in their head, because they couldnt feel half the stuff they experience any more.

 

If that is the case, why doesn't it happen to women?

[Durinax]

LTT was created by rand to cope with memories and such that he thought was appearing due to the taint and is a sign of growing insanity. This would have caused anyone to panic and start shutting themselves off from the world in order to try and protect it.

 

Plus like others said rand knew who his predecesor was and what LTT did in his lifetime which caused him to be demonized and rightfully so, rand wanted to distance himself from anythign to do from LTT

 

To try and create something about equal it would be kinda like if someone started hearing hitler in their head, they would try and shut him out, make it a separate entity within themselves and push it away

 

remember that Cadsuane has dealt with multiple male channellers the odds are good she dealt with an insane one who was hearing voices.

[Dunedain Fal]

No LTT was real.  Rand just had to come to terms that Rand used to be LTT and needed to accept LTT's memories as his own, including the actions of LTT.

[Terez]

Yes, which is why the 'voice' was a construct.

 

Cadsuane's comment made Rand paranoid about his growing insanity, which is exactly why Lews Therin 'disappeared' right after she said it.  The voice was originally constructed to help Rand convince himself he wasn't going mad.  When Cadsuane made the comment about the voices, the tables turned, and he feared that the 'voice' was a sign of his madness.  When Rand almost killed Torval in TPOD, the tables turned yet again, and Lews Therin came back to mutter about killing Torval so that Rand could pretend that it wasn't him that wanted to kill Torval, but rather Lews Therin, the murdering madman.

[Juggler]

I Dont't think she bluffed. Just re-reading and I noticed rand really started to have LTT troubles after nearly turning into him in TAR. He also seems to have made several trips to TAR in the flesh since (LoC - He knew a place, a reflection of the world where he had been and knew the answers to his questions before they were asked (rough quote))

 

I think she heard him spout something that was very old knowledge that she must have found also but in a very out of the way place. it's not like rand never said LTT's memories out loud. Cadsuane even if not around would hear from one of her spies or tell tales.

[OptimusPrime]

Listen to this.

 

Channeling is addictive, we all know this. Aside from the heightened senses and the ecstasy that comes with holding the Power, it distances you from yourself. Rand, a warrior, feels like its someone elses body thats being stabbed and whatnot, and he cant even feel emotions. By the time Moiraine is gone, Rand has to really drive home to himself that shes gone to get a reaction out of himself, and when that reaction came he didnt even know until Aviendha asked why he was crying.

 

Channeling makes it feel like its all happening to someone else. Channeling being addictive, so addictive that rand even notes later on that not holding saidin is an inconvenience because he finds it harder to ignore all the little things that irritate.

 

Lews Therins forming, I think, was not only there to blcok out the suffering or make the memories something he can understand. Its also a side effect of being addicted to channeling. Rand continuously lectures himself that he is a weapon, that he doesnt feel any emotion, and through channeling he doesnt even feel his own pain. It becomes someone elses pain.

 

Lews Therins pain, of course. The other male channelers Cadsuane encountered, I think, suffered from the same thing, an addiction to channeling that made them think there was someone else in their head, because they couldnt feel half the stuff they experience any more.

 

If that is the case, why doesn't it happen to women?

 

Not all women are wilders who used to channel through the taint? Plus they have a 3000 year old institution dedicated to women that can channel, theyre bound to moderate their channeling so as to not become addicted to it. Moiraines warning in EotW show that they are aware of its addictiveness.

[Wolfsister]

Cadsuane has a lot of experience dealing with men who can channel. She has helped capture more men than any 4 Reds, so it is said in the books. It goes without saying that she must have spoken with them, learned something about how the "madness" hits them.

 

When she meets Rand the first time in aCoS, she asks if he is hearing voices already. She is trying to gage how far along he is in his madness (if it has already started). Since that time to tGS, Cadsuane has been with Rand constantly and has observed him talking with himself. I believe she is aware that he hears voices. She is not bluffing.

[Terez]

I Dont't think she bluffed. Just re-reading and I noticed rand really started to have LTT troubles after nearly turning into him in TAR.

That's because he became convinced in that moment that Lews Therin was 'real' and trying to take over.  What actually happened was most likely this: Rand encountered Rahvin's trap, which tried to 'unmake' him.  He panicked, and he needed Lews Therin's memories really bad all of a sudden.  For the whole book, they have been coming to the surface at need, and that is what happens in this moment.  The memories of how to fight the trap are Lews Therin's, and so when he concentrated on his self image to fight the trap, it's no surprise he subconsciously used Lews Therin's features.  when Rand realized what was happening, he became convinced that Lews Therin was 'there' and trying to take over.  This leads to him getting paranoid about it in book six, and imagining that Lews Therin is talking to him.  Eventually, he imagines that he can actually have a conversation with Lews Therin.  Thus is his imaginary friend born.

 

We know that going to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh is bad, but we don't know why, and I doubt it has anything to do with past life memories, or the Forsaken who do it so often would have past life memories.  None of them do, even Ishamael who wishes he had those memories.  Now, it might have something to do with Rand being a Hero of the Horn - how he got the memories, that is - but this would probably not explain the Wise Ones' fears, since Heroes are so rare.  More likely IMO it had to do with a combination of the taint and Tel'aran'rhiod.  The timing fits for both, because he went to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh for the first time at the same time he used one of the strongest sa'angreal for men, one that happens to have a flaw that magnifies the taint.  His next usage of a sa'angreal was at the end of book 4 - more Power than Callandor even with only half its flow - and the next time he went to Tel'aran'rhiod was at the end of book 5.  Lews Therin's memories start getting really recognizable in the beginning of book 5, though we get some good ones in book 4 chapters 9-10, when he meets Lanfear and Shadowspawn attack the Stone.  No certain ones for the rest of the book, though Lanfear thinks Rand's plot to capture Asmodean was something Lews Therin might have come up with.  The flow gets steady in book 5, and the 'voice' is developed over books 5 and 6.

[farthammer]

Rand straight up told Cadsuane about it.  Anyway if he was that close to destroying the world, he was going to flip whether Cadsuane or anyone else did something either on accident or on purpose.  At least she got his dad involved since it was happening either way.

 

Crown of Swords:

 

Surprisingly, Rand only rubbed his cheek. “You were wrong,

Cadsuane. He’s real. I’m certain of it. I know he is.” Even more

surprisingly, he sounded as if he very much wanted her to believe.

[Harbin]

We know that going to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh is bad, but we don't know why,

 

And it may only be superstition. Only the WOs tell that, and they certainly are not the expert in TAR they say they are : only four of them can dreamwalk! Moghedien is afraid of "in the flesh" Rand and Rahvin but that's because they are much stronger this way. The only problem when going to TaR in the flesh seems to be that nobody can check on your real body while there, and an advantage of going to TaR asleep is that your real body still benefits from your sleep.

[Terez]

Yes, it might be superstition only because the Forsaken did it in the Age of Legends, and they probably did bad things there.  Moghedien talks about it as if it is really scary, though...as if Rand and Rahvin were more deadly because they were there in the flesh, though she said they had less control over the dream.

[Fains nose]

if you enter the dream in the flesh, your meant to lose some of your soul. I imagine if you did it to often for too long, youd end up like that ogier who got caught in Machin Shin.

[Val Mickey]

If LTT is a construct, how does he come up with stuff that only the Forsaken can confirm? ???

[Terez]

The memories are real; the 'voice' is a construct.  Usually, Rand remembers Lews Therin's life directly; the voice seldom shares important information.

[stemitchell91]

Yes, it might be superstition only because the Forsaken did it in the Age of Legends, and they probably did bad things there.  Moghedien talks about it as if it is really scary, though...as if Rand and Rahvin were more deadly because they were there in the flesh, though she said they had less control over the dream.

 

I believe Moghedien says in the same scene that if you go in the flesh you retain your full channeling ability, while dreamers are weaker in the power while dreaming.

[Terez]

Probably.  I remembered something along those lines, and that it also had to do with Nynaeve contributing nothing to the link as she was.  And also oddly, those who are alive can do more in Tel'aran'rhiod than the dead Heroes, though only in some ways?  Strength in the dream, I suppose...because the Heroes surely have the upper hand when it comes to skill.  If they don't want to be seen, then they won't be.  Only when they take risks like Birgitte did are they in danger.