"Forcing" Egwene

[Leatherleaf]

As stated in several books in the series, a (female only?) channeler can be forced to wield saidar faster than recommended. In Salidar, Suian is noted to have apologized to Egwene several times for forcing Egwene. However, I can't recall Suian forcing Egwene. I thought that Egwene's forced strength came from "studying" with the Seanchean. What am I missing here?

[Lambada]

Moiraine started teaching Egwene as soon as they left the Two Rivers.

Siuan (among others) taught Egwene when they were on their way from the Borderlands to Tar Valon - remember the scene on the boat where Siuan and Nynaeve held other other in flows of Air?

 

Egwene was not a sparker - and teaching of initiates usually only begins once they are in Tar Valon and under the highly controlled regime for novices there - where they then move slower than a snail.

 

Hence, Egwene was 'forced'.

[Leatherleaf]

Oh okay, I forgot about Suian's teachings on the return from the Borderlands. However, I am sure that Egwene indeed is a sparker, but I don't have a quote to back that up. I am assuming that Suian in particular was forcing Egwene, because Moiraine's instruction - as far as I know - was to help Egwene begin to learn so she wouldn't succumb to the deaths that plague 3 out of 4 wilders.

 

For some reason, I thought that Elaida had begun to teach Elayne (also a sparker) as well, before Elayne first went to Tar Valon. If so, then that initial teaching wouldn't be considered forcing, because I know that Elayne expresses some jealousy that Egwene is as strong (slightly stronger?) than Elayne herself, but admits that Egwene was forced. If both Elayne and Egwene had those initial Aes Sedai instructions before heading to the Tower, then those instructions wouldn't be considered forcing.

[Lambada]

Hmm.... I didn't think Egwene was a sparker - mainly because she didn't have a block which is the primary characteristic of wilders.

 

If she is a sparker, then teaching simple control wouldn't be forcing, whilst more than the novice control exercises would be.

 

I can't recall ever seeing it mentioned that Elaida taught Elayne before she went to the Tower, then again I can't remember anything that said she didn't either - besides custom that is.

[aunt_pol]

Hmm.... I didn't think Egwene was a sparker - mainly because she didn't have a block which is the primary characteristic of wilders.

 

 

Egwene had no block because she hadn't begun to channel at all. Presumably Moiraine got her not long before she would have.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

Egwene is indeed a sparker ... as are Nynaeve and Elayne.

 

From TEoTW ch 12, this is Moiraine speaking to Egwene after they have crossed the Taren:

 

"You are one of the bare handful for whom there is no need to learn.  At least, touching the Source will come to you whether you want it or not."

 

There are other references later (like when she meets Elayne in the Tower) but Egwene is a sparker.  You are also correct, Leatherleaf, that Elayne was taught a little by Elaida before coming to the Tower.

 

Moiraine, Siuan, and others did indeed "force" Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne all three.  What the Seanchan did to Egwene was "forcing" as well, and what the girls did to themselves because of their dangerous circumstances is "forcing" as well.  "Forcing" mostly has to do with the frequency and amount of the Power employed, and all three girls used more than the recommended amount, more often than recommended, almost from  day one.  We don't really see it in the stories, but it usually takes years, sometimes decades for channelers to reach their full strength.  The girls have definitely been on an accelerated program.

 

And it is dangerous.  Essentially all the Asha'man are "forced," and that accounts for more of their training casualty rate than the taint did.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hi all......

I thought Siuan was apologizing because she understood that the consequences of her acts in sending Egwene out chasing the Black Ajah would have...and did...result in her "forced" saidar growth.

 

Sincerely,

Wheel of Thyme

[Charlz Fel]

First: setting the record straight a bit: Moiraine told Egwene that she (Egwene) was destined (or, if you prefer, doomed) to touch the Source with or without training, and guided her through her first time touching the Source (this consisted of flashes of light in Moiraine's blue stone).  After that, Moiraine had some discussions with Egwene (Rand eavesdropped on one of these), but did not actually attempt to teach her to channel.  However, when they were separated after Shadar Logoth, Egwene deliberately started campfires with the One Power on her own; Perrin, from whose PoV we see this, thought she was being foolish (and we now know he was right, but she was lucky).  When Moiraine saw what she had done, she realized she had no choice but to teach her.  (I am basing this last on a comment Verin made in TGH when tutoring Egwene and Nyneave.)

 

Unfortunately, none of this explains the "Forcing" that Elayne refers to, since Elayne and Egwene were in lockstep when they met in Tar Valon, and Elayne uses this forcing to explain why Egwene is now stronger than she, two(?) years later.  The experience Egwene had, but not Elayne, that seems most likely to have caused this, is Egwene's time as a damane.  However, Siuan was certainly not responsible for this, so I suppose either Siuan and Elayne are thinking about different occasions on which Egwene was forced, or RJ goofed.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

When Moiraine saw what she had done, she realized she had no choice but to teach her.

 

Thus "forcing" her, to an somewhat more controlled extent, because she was "forcing" herself in a totally uncontrolled way.  As Siuan and the others who taught the girls on the way to Tar Valon did, and as the Seanchan did to Egwene, but most importantly, as the girls frequently did to themselves, through a combination of reaction to necessity and good old mule-headedness.  So, I would agree that "Siuan and Elayne are thinking about different occasions on which Egwene was forced," because Egwene's (and the others') experience of being "forced" and "forcing" themselves is a complicated one involving a variety of reasons and circumstances.

[Mr. Micawber]

All three of the Supergirls were forced, from the get go.

 

Elaida began training Elayne almost instantly - for the same reason as Moiraine did Nynaeve and Egwene - if only to prevent her from dying.

 

After that, all three girls, but the Oooh Girl in particular, advanced by leaps and bounds due to their Study Abroad program at Falme and the months-plus journey back to Tar Valon. Nynaeve, recall, after substantially less than a year's worth of conscious training, was described by the Amyrlin as ready for the shawl. Literally the only thing preventing her from the tests was her block.

 

We, as readers, forget how terribly unusual this is, because of the parallel development with Rand. However, Rand, it should be noted, has a Cheat Code. Namely, Lews Therin's memories. As he himself says on numerous occasions, he doesn't actually know what he's doing when he does something, but when he succeeds, he essentially unlocks his past memory of that weave. In effect, he doesn't have to force himself, only remember what he did back when he was Lews Therin.

 

Here is a point where Lanfear significantly affected him for the better. I suspect that her interaction with Rand dredged up memories of his past life - always there, thanks to the taint and the Pattern, but not necessarily accessible - and then, inadvertently, her plan with Asmodean threw him into a battle where he drew on more power than had literally ever been channeled by a single man. Finally, Asmodean's lessons combined with the increased exposure to the taint unlocked the rest of Lews Therin's memories, until by ACOS or so, he had complete access to Lews Therin's memories *when he wanted to* which was largely when he was channeling.

 

His mental issues that stemmed from the construction of the LTT persona meant that he couldn't easily access LTT weaves - as we see in KOD, he's terrified of giving control to the LTT persona to allow him to create the weaves of Mass Destruction - but the general point is that they *are* there, and so he's not really forcing himself, just going through a refresher course.

 

The Supergirls, by contrast, effectively stop learning very early on and yet have *no* old memories of themselves previously performing acts (because, and this is why Rand constructed the persona, Rand really had done what LTT had done, and yet had not at the same time; whoo Metaphysics!) to drawn on. Frankly, letting someone like Nynaeve continue to walk around could have just as easily resulted in death or burning out as it did her breaking her block.

[algspkr]

Could someone please post the glossary entry from APoD on forcing please.  I would do it, but that book fell apart on my last reread.

[Snarf]

forcing; forced: When someone with the ability to channel handles as much of the One Power as they can over long periods of time and channels continually, they learn faster and gain strength more rapidly.  This is called forcing, or being forced, by Aes Sedai, who abjure the practice with novices and Accepted because of the danger of death or being burned out.

Glossary, KoD

[algspkr]

forcing; forced: When someone with the ability to channel handles as much of the One Power as they can over long periods of time and channels continually, they learn faster and gain strength more rapidly.  This is called forcing, or being forced, by Aes Sedai, who abjure the practice with novices and Accepted because of the danger of death or being burned out.

Glossary, KoD

 

Thanks much, and I thought it was earlier than that.  I checked LoC, ACoS and WH.

 

This would indicate that those suggesting that Egwene's early teachings were not what Suian was referring to when apologizing for having forced Egwene.  They were all standard lessons if not given in the Tower as is standard procedure.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

So ... you're agreeing with me then, Mr. Micawber?

 

All three of the Supergirls were forced, from the get go.

 

Elaida began training Elayne almost instantly - for the same reason as Moiraine did Nynaeve and Egwene - if only to prevent her from dying.

 

After that, all three girls, but the Oooh Girl in particular, advanced by leaps and bounds due to their Study Abroad program at Falme and the months-plus journey back to Tar Valon. Nynaeve, recall, after substantially less than a year's worth of conscious training, was described by the Amyrlin as ready for the shawl. Literally the only thing preventing her from the tests was her block.

 

Summary:

Moiraine, Siuan, and others did indeed "force" Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne all three.  What the Seanchan did to Egwene was "forcing" as well, and what the girls did to themselves because of their dangerous circumstances is "forcing" as well.

 

Next part:

We, as readers, forget how terribly unusual this is, because of the parallel development with Rand.

 

Or one could say:

We don't really see it in the stories, but it usually takes years, sometimes decades for channelers to reach their full strength.  The girls have definitely been on an accelerated program.

 

And finally, for algspkr and Snarf ... the definition of "forcing"

 

forcing; forced: When someone with the ability to channel handles as much of the One Power as they can over long periods of time and channels continually, they learn faster and gain strength more rapidly.  This is called forcing, or being forced, by Aes Sedai, who abjure the practice with novices and Accepted because of the danger of death or being burned out.

Glossary, KoD

 

Sounds kind of like:

"Forcing" mostly has to do with the frequency and amount of the Power employed, and all three girls used more than the recommended amount, more often than recommended, almost from  day one. 

[...]

 

And it is dangerous.  Essentially all the Asha'man are "forced," and that accounts for more of their training casualty rate than the taint did.

 

Thus a final comment regarding this:

 

This would indicate that those suggesting that Egwene's early teachings were not what Suian was referring to when apologizing for having forced Egwene.  They were all standard lessons if not given in the Tower as is standard procedure.

 

"Forcing" has nothing to with what is being taught, it has to do with frequency and amount of Power used.  So, by continuing their lessons at an accelerated rate outside of the Tower, Siuan and the others did assist in the "forcing" of Egwene and Nynaeve.  Giving the standard lessons on a non-standard timeline certainly qualifies as "forcing," since it contributes to channeling "continually" or "over long periods of time."  What Moiraine, Siuan, and Elaida did was guided "forcing," because they knew if they didn't, then the girls would engage in unguided "forcing" (which indeed, we know they did).