Rand: seed of the Hammer?

[FarShainMael]

im not sure how that would be feasable. I guess that if they lucked out that they would be away from the holds and make it through.

Maybe. Like I said in my first post, it seems to be a string of moonbeams. Interesting if true, but I can't get behind it.

 

That's interesting about Laiwynde, I missed that one.

 

For the rest.. I agree that it's a very delicate web indeed, nothing definite, a LOT of ambiguities, but just enough there to tantalise me.

 

I'll RAFO!

 

[OptimusPrime]

Janduin I think is not a Hero of the Horn; IIRC, he didnt pay some sort of sacrifice... or maybe Im forgetting something. He was Ta'veren, yes, but I never saw any reason to think more than that. Although I do think this is an interesting thread, there is definitely something to figure out about this with the Hammer.

 

I have one small problem with all of this.

 

Then something interesting happens. A little earlier, while Perrin is waiting for Tylee to arrive, he thinks of Mat's father talking of trading techniques, and those colours swirl in Perrin's head, showing him Mat and Tuon. Now Berelain talks to Tylee about her descent from Hawkwing, and Perrin interrupts them:

 

"I didn't come here to talk about the Prophecies or Hawkwing or your Empress," Perrin said iritably. For the second time in a matter of moments those colours tried to coalesce in his head only to be dispelled. He had no time.

 

Perrin saw the colours when thinking of Mat's father, now he sees them when thinking of Hawkwing!

 

Everyone thinks of Rand when they hear the Prophecies. When Perrin said that the colors swirled as he was reminded of Rand, by mentioning the prophecies. Never has Perrin or any of the others had those swirling colors unless they are thinkin of each other specifically.

 

I wonder if the Hammers seed burning the Ancient Tree meant Hawkwings children pulling the Empire apart after he died.

[FarShainMael]

damn.

 

???

 

@Drekka: interesting point about the Prophecies. I'll think on it.

 

'Never has Perrin or any of the others had those swirling colors unless they are thinkin of each other specifically.'

 

Exactly. Perrin saw the colours when thinking of Mat's father (whether as such or by name we are not told), not Mat specifically.

 

'I wonder if the Hammers seed burning the Ancient Tree meant Hawkwings children pulling the Empire apart after he died.'

 

AIUI, none of Hawkwing's children survived his death (apart from Luthair who was in Seanchan; and Laiwynde perhaps who was fleeing for her life.

 

What are the requirements for being/becoming a HotH?

 

[OptimusPrime]

damn.

 

???

 

@Drekka: interesting point about the Prophecies. I'll think on it.

 

'Never has Perrin or any of the others had those swirling colors unless they are thinkin of each other specifically.'

 

Exactly. Perrin saw the colours when thinking of Mat's father (whether as such or by name we are not told), not Mat specifically.

 

'I wonder if the Hammers seed burning the Ancient Tree meant Hawkwings children pulling the Empire apart after he died.'

 

AIUI, none of Hawkwing's children survived his death (apart from Luthair who was in Seanchan; and Laiwynde perhaps who was fleeing for her life.

 

What are the requirements for being/becoming a HotH?

 

 

To become a Hero of the Horn supposedly you must commit an act of great sacrifice, likely to the benefit of the Pattern. For example in the theory of Mat giving up his eye to save Moiraine, and thus save teh world, there are those that think that act would bind Mat as a Hero, being willing to give up half of the light he sees to save Moiraines guidance or wisdom...

 

Thinking about Mats dad... Ok think of one of your friends parents for a second. You cannot do that without the friend themself being in your mind to recognise that the parents are that friends parents. Your mind connects it automatically, and that is how Mat came into Perrins head. I couldnt possibly think of, say, wonder for a minute about some celebrities children without that celebrity entering my head for a moment. If something reminds Mat or Perrin or Rand of the other, even if Rand saw a spear that made him think of the ashandarei, he would likely see Mat in his head because he knows Mat uses something like that. And yet Rand would have thought of Mats weapon, not Mat himself.

[FarShainMael]

Possibly so.

 

There are some anomalies about the appearance of the colours.

 

In KoD Ch8, Mat is talking to Aludra about her bronze lofting tubes, which she proposes to call 'dragons', but this does not evoke the colours for Mat. A little later on, though, he sees them without even thinking Rand's name, just saying that he 'knew someone' who would be interested.

 

Then in KoD Ch12, Perrin thinks about people's reactions to his eyes. 'He hoped there was nothing in the Prophecies about 2 men with yellow eyes. Those colours whirled, and he dashed them.' Clearly he's not thinking about Rand, but about Elyas Machera!

 

[Hadilmir]

2. Perrin thought of Mat's father. His mind latched onto Mat in the thought. Then he said 'Prophecies' which immediately brings Rand to mind, being the Dragon Reborn and whatnot.

 

Those aren't anomalies though-

 

Mat thinking dragons may have just brought the lofting tubes to mind, since that is what she was naming. But that 'someone' is Rand, he thought about Rand even if he didn't say his name aloud.

 

Look at my quote from my first post for your Perrin anomaly.

 

 

It really would be pretty cool if true, I just don't believe it given the current evidence.

[FarShainMael]

2. Perrin thought of Mat's father. His mind latched onto Mat in the thought. Then he said 'Prophecies' which immediately brings Rand to mind, being the Dragon Reborn and whatnot.

 

Those aren't anomalies though-

 

Mat thinking dragons may have just brought the lofting tubes to mind, since that is what she was naming.

 

My point was that it should have brought Rand to mind and evoked the colours. That's why it's anomalous.

 

But that 'someone' is Rand, he thought about Rand even if he didn't say his name aloud.

Exactly. I mentioned that to emphasise the anomaly of the lofting tubes thought.

 

Look at my quote from my first post for your Perrin anomaly.

 

I don't think so. Yes he had the word 'prophecies' in his mind, but if the word 'dragon' doesn't always make Mat think of Rand, then the word 'Prophecies' need not make Perrin think of Rand either. And he wasn't. He was thinking of Elyas.

 

On a side note, I could bear to know a lot more about our friend Elyas Machera (recall Tyrn Mashera of Mayene?) I must read up about his encounter with Lord Captain Bertain Gallenne of Mayene's Winged Guard.  

 

It really would be pretty cool if true, I just don't believe it given the current evidence.

 

I'd agree that there isn't enough evidence to prove it. Most of what I've cited can be interpreted in at least two different ways. But nothing really knocks it on the head, either. The biggest objection (IMO) is how the AH-soul manifested to Rand in tGH, but I think even that one leaves things open.

 

This from 13th Depository:

 

'There are little more than one hundred Heroes bound to the Wheel (The Great Hunt, The Grave is No Bar to My Call). It may be that a certain number of these souls were bound to the Wheel from the beginning of Creation, while others were added over time. New souls can find themselves bound to the Horn, though it takes very great bravery and accomplishment in the flesh. A soul remains permanently bound to the Wheel {Drekka take note}, barring an unnatural event:

 

New heroes could find themselves bound so as well, men and women whose bravery and accomplishments raised them far above the ordinary, but once bound, it was forever.

 

...

 

These souls are familiar with and know one another and it is the etiquette among the Heroes to refer to one another by their last incarnation. Some of them have formed a link and consistently work together upon rebirth. Birgitte and Gaidal Cain are an example of linked souls who are nearly always reborn together. '

 

From

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/horn-of-valere.html

 

Etiquette only.. So Janduin could have chosen to appear as Hawkwing; it was not a case of the AH-soul being compelled to do so by the workings of T'A'R.

 

[Val Mickey]

A butterfly's breath - What if Bryne is the seed of the Hammer? The Lord of Kore Springs. Tuon Athaem Devi "Kore" Paendrag. Just fodder for thought.

 

It would be interesting if he righted ancient wrong.

[FarShainMael]

Has Bryne burned any ancient trees  ;)  ? Not saying he hasn't; you never know.

 

Going back to Elyas for a moment..

 

Elyas seems to know Berelain and Gallenne well, even calling Gallenne by his first name, Bertain. Though, as he says, they wouldn't know him.

 

 

"Berelain has the brains between them. She's kept Tear out of Mayene by playing the Tairens against the Illianers since she was 16. Berelain knows how to manoeuver; all Gallenne knows is attack. He's good at it, but he never sees anything else, and sometimes he doesn't stop to think."

 

Seems to support the idea that he may come from Mayene himself. Though I'm not yet sure what the implications are of Elyas possibly being related to Tyrn, especially as he hasn't burned any ancient trees either.

 

[Impressive Bosom]

Just throwing this out there - the possibility that the term 'seed' does not HAVE to mean lineage. It can be almost anything who's beginnings can be traced back to the actions or decisions of 'the Hammer'. Artur planted the seed of the Seanchan and their eventual return by sending them off across the ocean, for instance.

[aunt_pol]

Slightly OT, but just had a funny thought- LTT's been mad as a badger for what, 2000-odd years? I'm guessing all the other Heroes, younger than him and all, were mighty happy when his soul was spun out.

 

How long could anyone spend listening to him wailing about Ilyena?!

[FarShainMael]

Just throwing this out there - the possibility that the term 'seed' does not HAVE to mean lineage. It can be almost anything who's beginnings can be traced back to the actions or decisions of 'the Hammer'. Artur planted the seed of the Seanchan and their eventual return by sending them off across the ocean, for instance.

 

Using Google 'define:' brings up a dozen meanings, one of them indicating a precursor to AH:

 

'source: anything that provides inspiration for later work '

 

Now it's getting really complicated!

 

@aunt_pol: about five minutes I should think.. ;) but I still maintain that LTT died sane.

 

[aunt_pol]

Died sane? So why revert to bonkers?

[Durinax]

Died sane? So why revert to bonkers?

it was still a temporary healing, I believe the quote is "a few lucid moments" and then LTT travelled and sttruck himself down

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

The insanity that manifested in Rand as Lews Therin's voice was not actually Lews Therin Telamon.  Lews Therin Telamon died creating Dragonmount 3000 plus years ago.  Some of the memories that accompanied the voice were memories from Lews Therin's time, but those were Rand's memories, because Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn.  They are not, and never were, two separate people, instead, Rand is a later version of the same person, or at least, a person from the same template.

 

While that soul was in Tel'aran'rhiod awaiting rebirth, he would have had memories of not only his time as Lews Therin Telamon, but hundreds, maybe thousands of other equally real incarnations.  His most recent life serves only as a point of reference, not of definition. Even though Hawkwing calls him "Lews Therin" at Falme, that was essentially a term of convenience; what we've learned from Birgitte makes it clear that no single lifetime really defines a Hero of the Horn.    While awaiting rebirth with the Heroes, he was neither Lews Therin, nor alive.  So I seriously doubt that the Dragon manifested signs of insanity while waiting with the other Heroes.  Lews Therin's insanity was specifically connected to Lews Therin's life, not inherent in his soul.

[FarShainMael]

Died sane? So why revert to bonkers?

it was still a temporary healing, I believe the quote is "a few lucid moments" and then LTT travelled and sttruck himself down

 

"A pity for you.. that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid moments, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes... But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!"

 

It was the Sister's (AS) healing that would only give a 'few lucid moments'. LTT got the DO's healing.

 

LTT then committed suicide out of remorse.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

The insanity that manifested in Rand as Lews Therin's voice was not actually Lews Therin Telamon.  Lews Therin Telamon died creating Dragonmount 3000 plus years ago.  Some of the memories that accompanied the voice were memories from Lews Therin's time, but those were Rand's memories, because Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn.  They are not, and never were, two separate people, instead, Rand is a later version of the same person, or at least, a person from the same template.

 

While that soul was in Tel'aran'rhiod awaiting rebirth, he would have had memories of not only his time as Lews Therin Telamon, but hundreds, maybe thousands of other equally real incarnations.  His most recent life serves only as a point of reference, not of definition. Even though Hawkwing calls him "Lews Therin" at Falme, that was essentially a term of convenience; what we've learned from Birgitte makes it clear that no single lifetime really defines a Hero of the Horn.    While awaiting rebirth with the Heroes, he was neither Lews Therin, nor alive.  So I seriously doubt that the Dragon manifested signs of insanity while waiting with the other Heroes.  Lews Therin's insanity was specifically connected to Lews Therin's life, not inherent in his soul.

 

Pretty much 100% in agreement with this. Rand and the voice he hears have nothing to do with the real Lews Therin. The only time Lews Therin has been present in anything is in EotW prologue. Rands madness is not connected to Lews Therin in any way, no matter how much he thinks it might be/might have been.

[aunt_pol]

The insanity that manifested in Rand as Lews Therin's voice was not actually Lews Therin Telamon.  Lews Therin Telamon died creating Dragonmount 3000 plus years ago.  Some of the memories that accompanied the voice were memories from Lews Therin's time, but those were Rand's memories, because Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn.  They are not, and never were, two separate people, instead, Rand is a later version of the same person, or at least, a person from the same template.

 

While that soul was in Tel'aran'rhiod awaiting rebirth, he would have had memories of not only his time as Lews Therin Telamon, but hundreds, maybe thousands of other equally real incarnations.  His most recent life serves only as a point of reference, not of definition. Even though Hawkwing calls him "Lews Therin" at Falme, that was essentially a term of convenience; what we've learned from Birgitte makes it clear that no single lifetime really defines a Hero of the Horn.    While awaiting rebirth with the Heroes, he was neither Lews Therin, nor alive.  So I seriously doubt that the Dragon manifested signs of insanity while waiting with the other Heroes.  Lews Therin's insanity was specifically connected to Lews Therin's life, not inherent in his soul.

 

Pretty much 100% in agreement with this. Rand and the voice he hears have nothing to do with the real Lews Therin. The only time Lews Therin has been present in anything is in EotW prologue. Rands madness is not connected to Lews Therin in any way, no matter how much he thinks it might be/might have been.

 

 

But wouldn't the wailing about Ilyenaaaaa have come with his memories? I don't know how you can say it's nothing to do with the 'real' LTT, sure it must be. Or do you mean to say that his going mad is happening concurrently with him recovering his past life memories?

[FarShainMael]

Rand has been doing a lot of reading, especially after he declared himself as the Dragon Reborn, trying to educate himself. He would certainly have read as much as he could about the man he thought of as his predecessor, the Kinslayer. Elayne's physical resemblance to Ilyena may have triggered the beginning of the awakening of LTT's memories in Rand, and his own Two Rivers ethic about not harming women may have caused the wailing about Ilyena.

 

It's a bit odd, that; why did he not think then of LTT having been himself in an earlier incarnation? He only accepted that in VoG. What took him so long?

 

[aunt_pol]

Well that's it, even after Ishy filling him in...!

[FarShainMael]

And another thing... ;)

 

Recall the moment in WH Ch10 in T'A'R when Egwene and Elayne realise someone is watching them, quite openly:

 

A man was standing there watching, a man as tall as an Aiel, with dark red hair faintly streaked with white, but his high-collared blue coat would never be worn by an Aiel. He appeared muscular, and his hard face seemed somehow familiar.

 

Elayne finds him familiar. Egwene comments: "He could have been Rand's uncle". Elayne thinks: Of course. If Rand had a mean uncle.

 

A bit odd that Egwene should think 'uncle' rather than 'father', or maybe she's too used to thinking of Tam as Rand's dad. (Does she know, at this point, that he isn't?)

 

The description is subtly different to that given of Luc when Perrin encounters him in tTR (tSR Ch 33):

 

A tall, broad-shouldered man in his middle years, with a hard, angular face and dark reddish hair white-winged at the temples. There was an arrogant cast to his dark blue eyes, and he certainly looked every inch a nobleman, in a finely-cut green coat discretely embroidered in golden scrolls down the sleeves.

 

White-winged temples, not 'faintly streaked' with white. Tall, but not 'as tall as an Aiel', though Perrin has met Aiel in Tear and has Gaul in his party for reference. Perrin describes Luc's face as 'hard, angular' but Elayne describes the face of the T'A'R man as 'hard' only. The blue coat seems not ornamented at all.

 

Perrin despised him on sight.. but later, when Luc recognises Perrin and is startled, Perrin thinks that he 'had never met this Luc before in his life'. No indication of recognising a relative of Rand there!

 

I'm wondering if the man in T'A'R wasn't Luc at all, but Janduin..

 

[aunt_pol]

Dude, come on. Janduin's dead. Luc killed him in the Blight. The Aiel were off hunting Trollocs and such, and the other Aiel saw that Janduin didn't even defend himself against the man wearing Shaiel's face. Had to be Luc.

[Majsju]

 

 

Perrin despised him on sight.. but later, when Luc recognises Perrin and is startled, Perrin thinks that he 'had never met this Luc before in his life'. No indication of recognising a relative of Rand there!

 

 

 

 

That comes later,

 

TSR Ch53

Dark-haired Slayer looked like Lans brother or cousin; if Luc, with his red-gold hair, resembled anyone, maybe it was Rand a little.

[FarShainMael]

Dude, come on. Janduin's dead. Luc killed him in the Blight. The Aiel were off hunting Trollocs and such, and the other Aiel saw that Janduin didn't even defend himself against the man wearing Shaiel's face. Had to be Luc.

 

This was in T'A'R, remember.. where the dead HotH dwell..

 

[FarShainMael]

 

 

Perrin despised him on sight.. but later, when Luc recognises Perrin and is startled, Perrin thinks that he 'had never met this Luc before in his life'. No indication of recognising a relative of Rand there!

 

 

 

 

That comes later,

 

TSR Ch53

Dark-haired Slayer looked like Lans brother or cousin; if Luc, with his red-gold hair, resembled anyone, maybe it was Rand a little.

 

There's an inconsistency right there. In tSR Ch 33, Luc's hair is described as 'dark reddish'. Now, suddenly in Ch53, his hair is red-gold. Strange.