I don't think it will happen

[RobertAlexWillis]

What I'm saying is that the lie doesn't combat the evil, and that the only way to do so is to cease equating "different" with "evil". So while the lie may be noble in intent, it merely props up a system based on a lie.

[Guest Majsju]

I don't think Cadsuane slaps Rand just because she thinks that will teach him manners. I think she's trying to provoke him to channel against her, just for him to see how pointless that is. Rand himself has been thinking that Cadsuane seems to be trying to provoke him.

 

That could be a part of what she will teach Rand and the Asha'man. They are all extremely arrogant because they can channel, and sometimes almost seem to think they are above humans. Showing them that channeling can sometimes be useless could hopefully humble them a bit and bring them back down to earth.

[Gentled Ben]

Oh yes, I've thought that for some time, too; that she's just trying to get him to use the power against her. At first, I thought, "How stupid can she be? He shielded Eg and El simultaneously, and they're each stronger than Cads," but now, we see that she has some nifty ter'angreals, and she has a history of taking down male channelers. Yes, I think the much-needed lesson that Min foresaw her teaching Rand and the asha'man, to their woe, is humility.

Cadsuane, however, has taken it upon herself to teach Rand both manners, and to be strong, rather than hard, i.e. that they are not the same thing. She's made small progress at manners, and no discernible progress at either of the other two lessons. Maybe Asmo wasn't the only lousy teacher! :D

She slapped him because she felt it was imperative to discourage any further use of balefire.

I find it intersting that she could identify the weave though. It IS banned, after all. Moiraine came away having knowledge of the weave after having spent time with Vandene (another Green) and Adealeas, and I'm beginning to suspect that banned or not, Balefire is one of the secret Green weaves, just like the cheesey Insect Plague is one of the Blue's tricks.

When Cads was trying to teach him manners (with the "That's one....that's two"..almost parental routine), I got the impression that she actually slugged him, as it rang his bell. Wow, maybe her priorities are screwed: "Threaten the very fabric of Reality, and I'll slap you, Boy; offend my sense of decorum, and I'll kick your arse!" :D

[Guest Majsju]

Another thing I forgot to say, Cadsuane provoking Rand fits nicely with what we've heard about her encounter with the old wilder in the Black Hills. cadsuane came there as a newly raised sister, believing herself nearly invincible, a belief the old wilder apparently took her out of. Cadsuane learned her lesson, and it seems reasonable she would want to teach the same to Rand and the other Asha'man before their heads grows so big they explode.

[Jorik Alarin]

It always baffles me when men try to defend their own subservience to women. If i am in conflict with someone, and i know that this other is much more powerful than me(physically, societally, or politcally), wouldn't i be the fool if i provoked it to attack me, wouldn't i be the stupid one if i attacked them? Yet we always as a society seem to think that its ok for the weaker to attack the stronger, and expect the stronger to just tolerate it. If im a bear and for some reason a squirrel goes berserk and starts biting at my heels i'm not going to go "oh well its not fair that i crush this thing attacking me because im bigger than it is" The squirrel will get crushed and deservedly so.

In the world of WoT, women have been the "power" for millenia. So for Cadsuane, a many centutries old Aes Sedai, to express her disapproval with the actions of Rand, a barely out of his teens novice, with physical violence is just like an adult hitting a child. Unfortunately RJ, has a fascination with seeing his hero tortured, beaten, manipulated and basically abused by women in power. Tortured (Galina, and the other sisters) Beaten (The Maidens) Manipulated (Almost every female character he has come in contact with, although to be fair quite a few men do the same), and belittled (Cadsuane, Moiraine, Egwene,).

YET through this all our hero illogically clings to this notion that women are in need of his protection, and he must not do anything to hurt them. The real lesson that i hope cadsuane teaches Rand and the Asha'men is that women are just as capable, just as driven, and just as dangerous as any man can be, and should be dealt with accordingly. But unfortunately i dont see this happening, because then that would elevate women to a place of "true" equality.

[Luckers]

Robert - The problem is that that is a lesson that the majority of people will not wish to learn... for that matter not even be able to percieve.

 

Maj - I hadn't concidered that Cadsuane was trying to force Rand into a confrontation, but it does make a lot of sense. Damn i wish we could learn more of what happened with Norla.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Luckers ... your conclusions are indeed correct. That is why any system based on the imperfect philosophy of fallible men is doomed to ultimate failure.

[Luckers]

I think our best course is to seek the sun, but be willing to deal and perceive when we dont attain it. Practicality combined with a healthy dose of hope.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think we should seek God, whose philosophy is perfect, and let Him perfect us. But we've already established our ground on that. And its not particularly on topic.

 

 

I have to say though, if we're to aim high, without really expecting to achieve it, why not aim for the truth we cannot achieve, rather than the lie that is closer to where we are?

[Luckers]

I disagree... i dont think we can rule our lives based on the unverifiable opinions of a transcendental being that does not openly speak for itself, and i also have issues with God's philosophy being perfect. I find a lot of it illogical, and moreover contradictory. I must say i'd love to have a debate with him though. Speaking of, we probably shouldn't get too off topic.

 

Yeah... wheel of time... stuff.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Blah blah blah Wheel of Time ...

 

 

 

OK ... I believe that the opinions and philosophy of God are verifiable through revelation, and that every individual on earth can obtain personal revelation from God. And I agree that most of man's interpretations of what God supposedly said are illogical and contradictory.

 

 

Oh ... and Rand, Perrin, Mat something or other.

[Rumor]

In the world of WoT, women have been the "power" for millenia. So for Cadsuane, a many centutries old Aes Sedai, to express her disapproval with the actions of Rand, a barely out of his teens novice, with physical violence is just like an adult hitting a child.

 

If you take issue with Cadsuane slapping Rand because he is misbehaving and deserved to be slapped, then you must take issue with the entire series as it is rife with adults hitting children when they misbehave.

 

As for the rest of your post...Phaw!!! part of what separates us from beasts is what you argue against.

[Jorik Alarin]

As for the rest of your post...Phaw!!! part of what separates us from beasts is what you argue against.

 

Phaw?.....Hmmm, perhaps the belief in true equality is a "noble lie" as was stated previously. Because certainly the enlightened members of this forum speak to the old adage (women are different than men (read: "inferior" Luckers), and therefore must be either protected by or from them; or are they fragile dolls that we can easily break if we don't treat them with special care?) Those statements speak for the status quo, the old ideas must hold out. And none of you have refuted my examples or points with anything but trite excuses and an ancient belief system.

We are distinct from beasts because of our ability to reason. And I am capable of reasoning that in a world where physical ability means little (The world of WoT, with the one power, and almost certainly the world of modern day technologically advanced societies), then the "physiological" differences between men and women shouldn't play a particularly important role in how they are treated.

So, i guess if me arguing for real equality (Read: Sameness) and my belief that women are as capable as men and thus should be treated as true equals, including being held accountable for the same actions in the same way. Well, then i guess i AM arguing for us to be more like beasts.

As for taking issue with the series i find it amusing that people see a series where the women have held practically all the reins of power for over three milennia, and yet accept it as logical when the societies they belong to fall into our(read: modern) ways of thinking about interaction between the sexes.

I mean if you can vaporize a thug, that is trying to rob you, out of existence what real fear would there be of IT? (gender neutrality used purposefully here) Even if IT was bigger and stronger? Also what kind of repulsion would you the reader have if you read about Egwene going through the same treatment as Rand did in LoC? They physically beat him every day then folded him in half locked him in a box, and left him to bake in the sun. All of these actions done by female antagonists,(and not all of them were black ajah) yet the treatment of their own gender is far from similar. I mean for goodness sake Egwenes punishment for open hostile rebellion against the White tower is being spanked; with a SLIPPER!) So, which is it? A belief that no matter what kind of "power" women get they are still more "special"(delicate, fragile, etc...) than men? Or is it the old oedipal argument that women must be treated different because we "love" our mommies, and thats what causes you to defend those old school sexist beliefs? Either one of those answers is unnacceptable to me.

Also i take issue with the idea that Rand was "misbehaving, and deserved to be slapped" he was not acting as Cadsuane wanted him to act, but who the hell is she to decide how he should act? If someone showed up in my life and started acting like Cadsuane does, I wouldn't slap her but I sure as hell wouldn't be around her, and rhetoric aside no one else here would either.

[Luckers]

Hmmm, perhaps the belief in true equality is a "noble lie" as was stated previously. Because certainly the enlightened members of this forum speak to the old adage (women are different than men (read: "inferior" Luckers), and therefore must be either protected by or from them; or are they fragile dolls that we can easily break if we don't treat them with special care?)

 

Why was that directed at me? i do not think women are inferior. My argument was that seperate but equal, as nice a concept as that is, is unsustainable on a social level... and has been proven so many many times. It's a lot like communism. The only way that we can ensure equality is to act on the assumption that men and women are EXACTLY the same in personality type, ability and function. At even the slightest hint of the people in power admitting women are different and the ignorent masses will read 'inferior' and eqaulity goes out the window.

 

That assumption of similarity is the noble lie, not the equality its striving for.

 

Incidently the human sexes have the least amount of genetic difference of any mamalian species, something like 0.002%. Just interesting little side-note.

 

Here's another, this ones funny: My ex-boyfriend works as an apprentice chef, which means he has to do a hospitality course at tafe, under the headline of how to deal with people with disabilities it listed being a woman as a disability, with the helpful little tagline 'You must look them in the eyes, and treat them with respect and eqaulity. Some of them even have jobs of their own now.'

 

Wow... just wow.

 

Back on the Wheel of Time.

 

Egwene is an initiate of the Tower, that grants her certain rights that have nothing to do with being a woman. Remember what they almost did to Leane before Egwene intervened. Remember also that Egwene is being punished for being a bad novice, not for open rebellion, for which the punishment is birching (which i imagine is worse then what Rand got) and death. Moreover, remember that the treatment Rand recieved was frowned upon by the Aes Sedai. Even Erian, whose warders he had killed, refused after the second day. The Aiel named those women da'tsang for it.

 

Yes there is an undoubted gender inequality in the nations of Randland--except for maybe the Aiel, who are surprisingly well-balanced--its one of the themes RJ has been dealing with.

 

You're obviously passionate about this, but are you sure you arn't letting your passion distort your perception? Cadsuane would have slapped a woman who wove balefire just as she would a man.

[Jorik Alarin]

Luckers;

 

That passage wasnt aimed at you in particular, I was just trying to show that i got your reference that in societies eyes Different=Inferior, and that no matter how we try we cannot make it appear any other way. So we must make it Same=Equal. And i disagree only slightly with your idea that acknowledging differences between the sexes sends the populace into a tizzy. I disagree because in our society (modern day technologically advanced) the only time a tizzy is had is when someone comes out with a study that says men are better than women at anything; just by virtue of being male. This is like a clarion call too war, and the guns are drawn and fired. Yet when a study comes out saying that women are better at somethings than men are; just by being female, it is treated as only logical. I feel that is because of our (societies) equation with different=inferior that the reaction is so strong. As far as the series goes; yes i believe that it was RJ's purpose to show us a world 180 degrees from our own, where women are in power and have been for most of recorded history, he said something to that effect somewhere. As an aside the most complete study on violence and advanced societies was recently published by australias ministry, if you care to look at it heres the site, it contains information about who is really more likely to be a victim, and a perpetrator of violence.(the answer to both questions is men, but there is some surprising information about domestic violence in the study)

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/39433889d406eeb9ca2570610019e9a5/0556fbd355b2719bca2571c50074abf2 !OpenDocument

 

Ohh and Luckers, are there any initiates at the White Tower that aren't female? :lol: So i guess we cant say for certain that her treatment has nothing to do with her gender.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ohh and Luckers, are there any initiates at the White Tower that aren't female? So i guess we cant say for certain that her treatment has nothing to do with her gender.

 

I've essentially said my piece for this one, but let me slip this in ... I think the point that Luckers was making is that they were going to be VERY much more harsh with Leane (female) than they were with Egwene (female) until Egwene demonstrated that Leane was an initiate of the Tower, so that the difference in their treatment would not have been dictated by gender (they are both female) but by their inclusion in the Tower. So the fact that there are only female initiates of the Tower at this time is irrelevant except in support of his point. Being a part of the Tower supercedes femaleness to the Aes Sedai, and therefore her treatment did have nothing to do with her gender.

[Luckers]

I wrote a paper on insufficient masculinity and masculinity in a post-feminist world... i know full well the unequel position men are in in the modern era. So don't get me wrong and think me arguing against it... which you do seem to.

 

My point was in each of those cases you raised, the reason for, and the degree of the violence you mentioned had nothing to do with gender. Cadsuane would have been equally violent with a woman, the degree of violence between what was delt Egwene and Rand was a moot point because Egwene should have been killed, and Rand should never have been treated that way--that she wasn't and that he was have nothing to do with their gender, but with the plans of Elaida and the Black Ajah members respectively. Then add Robert's point about violence Aes Sedai bring women who arn't initiates.

 

Frankly i think your twisting the situation to fit an interpretation. Gender is a massive power system amongst humans, but it is not the only one, and i dont think a gender reading is particualarily relevant to any of those situations.

[Jorik Alarin]

Sorry you two, this conversation seems to be getting distracted with semantics and details and modern day politics.(by me) Back to what i feel my main point was/is. How do you explain Rands, and Mats ways of dealing with women? They will not harm them at all, even at the cost of their own lives. Hell there is even a whole culture that is devoted to those ideals. (Shienar, where a man would gladly take a dagger to save a woman the smallest harm) What explanation can be given for this set of beliefs? I can't see it being the balance of power; because that tends to lean towards the women, even in villages.

I cant see it as men honestly believing they need to protect women from harm. I mean when a man who can channel is found, who do they call? Lets just say it isnt Bruno the bruiser. Other examples abound in the books. But for Rand to continue with these beliefs after all of his rather harsh treatment by many females (thats not to say he hasnt recieved harsh treatment from men too, he just deals with them accordingly) makes him an inferior hero. And honestly makes for a weaker story, i mean the DO doesnt care what a minions sex is, if the DO wanted to snuff Rand out just make sure every assassin is a female. He cant be surrounded by women protectors all the time. I can not come up with a logical reason for it. I might be able to relate a psychological reason for it, LTT killed his wife, perhaps Rand has internalized LTT's guilt for that act and projected it onto all women, and therfore because of the guilt of LTT he won't raise a hand to women again. But when we saw in DR that Rand did kill a female, the Dark friend, he immediately swore that he wouldnt harm women again, with no logical reasoning behind it. She was trying to kill him after all. And that was before LTT made a psychic appearance in the books. So his belief system was in place before LTT. I am still unable to see what societal reasons there are, other than old antiquated beliefs in women being "different" than men, for this attitude towards women.