Rands transformation

[mossman87]

I think excusing Ishamael's courage or lack of it because he appears to have taken his particular position based on his beliefs does not go far enough.  I think he also chose this path because he was really afraid of the possibility of being on the receiving end of the DO's power.  He says the DO has not been free to destroy the pattern at any point in history, that it only takes one time to win.  Being a philosopher he'd then consider the probability of victory infinitely close to zero.  You could rationalize your cowardice with this if you don't think it matters which side you choose.

 

How exactly is it cowardice though? Does he have some kind of requirement to fight for the pattern? According to Ishamael the pattern is the greatest evil of all. A construct which enslaves humanity and prevents any form of linear progress.

 

Wouldn't it be the opposite of cowardice? He took the first step by being the first person to acknowledge and swear loyalty to the DO and his cause to destroy the pattern. I can imagine this would require quite a bit of bravery and balls.

 

Massive balls.  I don't understand this Moridin is a coward talk at all.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Don't know how I could say it more clearly, but if fear of something enters into your decision making process then that is a form of cowardice.

 

I think that the probability are higher than "infinitely close to zero". It is a long scale battle. Beginning 3000 year before. Because the Pattern needed a lot of thing in place for 'this' fight.

 

I'm assuming Ishamael made the conclusions he says he did before going over to the shadow, otherwise he would have gone for no reason.  Those were basically the odds of him winning, as far as he would be able to tell.

 

 

Nothing indicates to us that it was fear though. In fact acting on fear would seem at odds with his whole personality. He simply joined the DO, since he believed it was the right thing to do. The right thing for humanity and the right thing to destroy the pattern (which he carries such a hatred for).

[Demiandre]

Don't know how I could say it more clearly, but if fear of something enters into your decision making process then that is a form of cowardice.

 

I think that the probability are higher than "infinitely close to zero". It is a long scale battle. Beginning 3000 year before. Because the Pattern needed a lot of thing in place for 'this' fight.

 

I'm assuming Ishamael made the conclusions he says he did before going over to the shadow, otherwise he would have gone for no reason.  Those were basically the odds of him winning, as far as he would be able to tell.

 

 

Nothing indicates to us that it was fear though. In fact acting on fear would seem at odds with his whole personality. He simply joined the DO, since he believed it was the right thing to do. The right thing for humanity and the right thing to destroy the pattern (which he carries such a hatred for).

 

Yes, but it seems logic for Ishamael to put his hatred for the Pattern on all the living. Which I donnt undertand. Why does he want to die, while destroying the Pattern? I would like to know what was his reflexions and the decisions he draw from those...

[mossman87]

Don't know how I could say it more clearly, but if fear of something enters into your decision making process then that is a form of cowardice.

 

I think that the probability are higher than "infinitely close to zero". It is a long scale battle. Beginning 3000 year before. Because the Pattern needed a lot of thing in place for 'this' fight.

 

I'm assuming Ishamael made the conclusions he says he did before going over to the shadow, otherwise he would have gone for no reason.  Those were basically the odds of him winning, as far as he would be able to tell.

 

 

Nothing indicates to us that it was fear though. In fact acting on fear would seem at odds with his whole personality. He simply joined the DO, since he believed it was the right thing to do. The right thing for humanity and the right thing to destroy the pattern (which he carries such a hatred for).

 

Yes, but it seems logic for Ishamael to put his hatred for the Pattern on all the living. Which I donnt undertand. Why does he want to die, while destroying the Pattern? I would like to know what was his reflexions and the decisions he draw from those...

 

For me, the answer to this would depend on if Ishamael wasn't lying when he said he's fought Rand turning after turning.  If that's truly the case I'd want out too, I'd be tired of being a pawn in the endless turning.

 

It's also possible with all the TP use the DO was able to convince him he has been used as a pawn over and over.  I mean, Ishy was/is pretty insane.

 

He's tired of being a hamster running the wheel thousands upon thousands of times for nothing, he needs to find an Ilyena. :(  Well I guess Shai'tan is his Ilyena.

[OptimusPrime]

I think excusing Ishamael's courage or lack of it because he appears to have taken his particular position based on his beliefs does not go far enough.  I think he also chose this path because he was really afraid of the possibility of being on the receiving end of the DO's power.  He says the DO has not been free to destroy the pattern at any point in history, that it only takes one time to win.  Being a philosopher he'd then consider the probability of victory infinitely close to zero.  You could rationalize your cowardice with this if you don't think it matters which side you choose.

 

How exactly is it cowardice though? Does he have some kind of requirement to fight for the pattern? According to Ishamael the pattern is the greatest evil of all. A construct which enslaves humanity and prevents any form of linear progress.

 

Wouldn't it be the opposite of cowardice? He took the first step by being the first person to acknowledge and swear loyalty to the DO and his cause to destroy the pattern. I can imagine this would require quite a bit of bravery and balls.

 

Massive balls.  I don't understand this Moridin is a coward talk at all.

 

I agree with this. If Ishamael had gone over quietly then I might understand where the cowardice talk would come from, but the fact that he publicly declared his decision to the people either makes him very brave, or very very stupid, and I seriously doubt the latter. I think it takes a lot more bravery to do that, to declare THAT, to declare to everyone that he wanted to help the Dark One break free, PUBLICLY, takes more bravery than half of the stuff Rand does I reckon. Sure, Rand has to go up against some of the most powerful people in the world, but hes been told that he was born to do it and clearly has the tools to make it happen. What would Elan Morin have had beyond his own musings? Nothing at all. And he had zero support in this decision, so he tells the people publicly, makes a big thing about the revelation. In his thoughts before revealing that, he must have understood that there was a good chance he wasnt going to survive that. And he didnt have anything like Ta'verenism to give him confidence.

 

I freakin love Ishamael. He is the most cunning, and I think, most daring person in the books. Clearly more daring than Rand.

[Duskfire]

I agree with this. If Ishamael had gone over quietly then I might understand where the cowardice talk would come from, but the fact that he publicly declared his decision to the people either makes him very brave, or very very stupid, and I seriously doubt the latter. I think it takes a lot more bravery to do that, to declare THAT, to declare to everyone that he wanted to help the Dark One break free, PUBLICLY, takes more bravery than half of the stuff Rand does I reckon. Sure, Rand has to go up against some of the most powerful people in the world, but hes been told that he was born to do it and clearly has the tools to make it happen. What would Elan Morin have had beyond his own musings? Nothing at all. And he had zero support in this decision, so he tells the people publicly, makes a big thing about the revelation. In his thoughts before revealing that, he must have understood that there was a good chance he wasnt going to survive that. And he didnt have anything like Ta'verenism to give him confidence.

 

I freakin love Ishamael. He is the most cunning, and I think, most daring person in the books. Clearly more daring than Rand.

 

So Ishamael, who is extremely confident the DO will win eventually, who proclaimed it to a bunch of people, is more daring then Rand who stood up and denied the Dark One, who looked at his horrible tragic past in the face and also denied that, who denied everlasting peace. I'm sorry, I just don't see it. I just don't see how someone who is so assured of victory (which Ishy is) can be called more daring then someone who struggles and fights, who refuses to give in. Rand knows just as much as Ishamael now, he understands the whole view behind it, knows what will happen after this Age has gone and faded into obscurity and the next telling comes about. Yet unlike Ishy he just doesn't bow down and accept it.

 

Rand has the entire world on his shoulders; everyone looks to him or attempts to manipulate him or just flatout hates him for what he is, despite being the apparent savior. And yet he still fights on. This while knowing that he'll probably do it again, and again. What was Ishamael? A philosopher? Someone who thought to himself, "oh crap, I really hate the fact that all these previous lives which I don't remember at all may or may not fight the Champion of the Light. I should just accept the inevitable." I'm sorry, Rand is vastly more daring then anyone else in the series.

 

I agree with you though, Ishamael is extremely cunning and cool.

[Demiandre]

The debate is not really about cowardice or courage/bravery, but more the fact that Ishy didn't dare fight the DO and finally ended up helping him. Whereas Rand knows he share the same destiny with his previous lives, due to the Karaethon Cycle. He knew, he accepted the fact that the Propheties asked him to sacrifice, and even if he understood it as him dying, he kept on fighting and didn't abandon.

 

But I agree too, Ishamael is a very good character nonetheless. All he did has been well thought and damaging on the long term. He has made such a good job we sometime wonder why Moghedien is still a Forsaken and why Alviarin hasn't been raised to a higher rank...

[lordofsoup]

i dont think that Ishmael is a coward, but he definately is insane.  He does stand, or at least try to stand up to Rand when he is holding calandor. 

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I agree with this. If Ishamael had gone over quietly then I might understand where the cowardice talk would come from, but the fact that he publicly declared his decision to the people either makes him very brave, or very very stupid, and I seriously doubt the latter. I think it takes a lot more bravery to do that, to declare THAT, to declare to everyone that he wanted to help the Dark One break free, PUBLICLY, takes more bravery than half of the stuff Rand does I reckon. Sure, Rand has to go up against some of the most powerful people in the world, but hes been told that he was born to do it and clearly has the tools to make it happen. What would Elan Morin have had beyond his own musings? Nothing at all. And he had zero support in this decision, so he tells the people publicly, makes a big thing about the revelation. In his thoughts before revealing that, he must have understood that there was a good chance he wasnt going to survive that. And he didnt have anything like Ta'verenism to give him confidence.

 

I freakin love Ishamael. He is the most cunning, and I think, most daring person in the books. Clearly more daring than Rand.

 

So Ishamael, who is extremely confident the DO will win eventually, who proclaimed it to a bunch of people, is more daring then Rand who stood up and denied the Dark One, who looked at his horrible tragic past in the face and also denied that, who denied everlasting peace. I'm sorry, I just don't see it. I just don't see how someone who is so assured of victory (which Ishy is) can be called more daring then someone who struggles and fights, who refuses to give in. Rand knows just as much as Ishamael now, he understands the whole view behind it, knows what will happen after this Age has gone and faded into obscurity and the next telling comes about. Yet unlike Ishy he just doesn't bow down and accept it.

 

Rand has the entire world on his shoulders; everyone looks to him or attempts to manipulate him or just flatout hates him for what he is, despite being the apparent savior. And yet he still fights on. This while knowing that he'll probably do it again, and again. What was Ishamael? A philosopher? Someone who thought to himself, "oh crap, I really hate the fact that all these previous lives which I don't remember at all may or may not fight the Champion of the Light. I should just accept the inevitable." I'm sorry, Rand is vastly more daring then anyone else in the series.

 

I agree with you though, Ishamael is extremely cunning and cool.

 

 

You're saying it's not brave to take the first step and declare for an unknown? To know that such a proclamation could be met with horror, hatred and his death? Ishamaels decision lies upon the fact that the victory of the DO is inevitable and needs to be brought about to finally bring an end to the pattern. An end to the eternal repetition of ages. Perhaps with a destroyed wheel, humanity finally has the ability to progress forward and existence can take a linear instead of circular destiny. Furthermore Ishamael would free himself of the shackles that the pattern holds on him, the enslavement it puts on him. He'll finally be free and not doomed to repeat the same lifeline ad nauseum age after age. Carry out the same role.

 

 

[Duskfire]

 

You're saying it's not brave to take the first step and declare for an unknown? To know that such a proclamation could be met with horror, hatred and his death? Ishamaels decision lies upon the fact that the victory of the DO is inevitable and needs to be brought about to finally bring an end to the pattern. An end to the eternal repetition of ages. Perhaps with a destroyed wheel, humanity finally has the ability to progress forward and existence can take a linear instead of circular destiny. Furthermore Ishamael would free himself of the shackles that the pattern holds on him, the enslavement it puts on him. He'll finally be free and not doomed to repeat the same lifeline ad nauseum age after age. Carry out the same role.

 

 

Yeah but he doesn't even remember the previous ages! Thats the thing. That what makes his excuses so wrong. If he was tormented by memories of his previous incarnations then yeah maybe, I could see it. But he doens't know anymore then Rand, he just theorises that he does does, and thats all it is, philsophical theories.

 

And this is never about humanity for Ishamael, about them breaking free of the Pattern. He flat out knows that the Dark One will just destroy everything. He isn't some weird sort of matyr.

[Vambram]

 

 

So Ishamael, who is extremely confident the DO will win eventually, who proclaimed it to a bunch of people, is more daring then Rand who stood up and denied the Dark One, who looked at his horrible tragic past in the face and also denied that, who denied everlasting peace. I'm sorry, I just don't see it. I just don't see how someone who is so assured of victory (which Ishy is) can be called more daring then someone who struggles and fights, who refuses to give in. Rand knows just as much as Ishamael now, he understands the whole view behind it, knows what will happen after this Age has gone and faded into obscurity and the next telling comes about. Yet unlike Ishy he just doesn't bow down and accept it.

 

Rand has the entire world on his shoulders; everyone looks to him or attempts to manipulate him or just flatout hates him for what he is, despite being the apparent savior. And yet he still fights on. This while knowing that he'll probably do it again, and again. What was Ishamael? A philosopher? Someone who thought to himself, "oh crap, I really hate the fact that all these previous lives which I don't remember at all may or may not fight the Champion of the Light. I should just accept the inevitable." I'm sorry, Rand is vastly more daring then anyone else in the series.

 

I agree with you though, Ishamael is extremely cunning and cool.

 

+1 QFT

[mossman87]

 

You're saying it's not brave to take the first step and declare for an unknown? To know that such a proclamation could be met with horror, hatred and his death? Ishamaels decision lies upon the fact that the victory of the DO is inevitable and needs to be brought about to finally bring an end to the pattern. An end to the eternal repetition of ages. Perhaps with a destroyed wheel, humanity finally has the ability to progress forward and existence can take a linear instead of circular destiny. Furthermore Ishamael would free himself of the shackles that the pattern holds on him, the enslavement it puts on him. He'll finally be free and not doomed to repeat the same lifeline ad nauseum age after age. Carry out the same role.

 

 

Yeah but he doesn't even remember the previous ages! Thats the thing. That what makes his excuses so wrong. If he was tormented by memories of his previous incarnations then yeah maybe, I could see it. But he doens't know anymore then Rand, he just theorises that he does does, and thats all it is, philsophical theories.

 

And this is never about humanity for Ishamael, about them breaking free of the Pattern. He flat out knows that the Dark One will just destroy everything. He isn't some weird sort of matyr.

 

We don't know for sure if he does or doesn't remember.

[Bridge]

But that if Rand would manage to cut down the wires who link Moridin to the DO into final and epic battle at TG, than Moridin conviction's flick and help Rand, who is mortally wounded at that point, therefore they would won the battle but the DO revenge would be to claim Moridin's life and Moridin allow Rand's soul to take control of his mortal body? Anyway Moridin is, in my point of view, most humanly from the Forsaken and that make him the perfect candidate to change the sides and fight for the Light.

[Val Mickey]

Anyway Moridin is, in my point of view, most humanly from the Forsaken and that make him the perfect candidate to change the sides and fight for the Light.

 

Ha.

[Duskfire]

We don't know for sure if he does or doesn't remember.

 

Thats true, but we have had his POV on a couple of occasions and he has had no thoughts concerning any previous lives. Then you take into account that only Rand and Birgitte remember past lives, and they were under extradionary circumstances. There's nothing to suggest that Ishamael remembers previous lives at all, if we go by our understanding of the Wheel.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

 

You're saying it's not brave to take the first step and declare for an unknown? To know that such a proclamation could be met with horror, hatred and his death? Ishamaels decision lies upon the fact that the victory of the DO is inevitable and needs to be brought about to finally bring an end to the pattern. An end to the eternal repetition of ages. Perhaps with a destroyed wheel, humanity finally has the ability to progress forward and existence can take a linear instead of circular destiny. Furthermore Ishamael would free himself of the shackles that the pattern holds on him, the enslavement it puts on him. He'll finally be free and not doomed to repeat the same lifeline ad nauseum age after age. Carry out the same role.

 

 

Yeah but he doesn't even remember the previous ages! Thats the thing. That what makes his excuses so wrong. If he was tormented by memories of his previous incarnations then yeah maybe, I could see it. But he doens't know anymore then Rand, he just theorises that he does does, and thats all it is, philsophical theories.

 

And this is never about humanity for Ishamael, about them breaking free of the Pattern. He flat out knows that the Dark One will just destroy everything. He isn't some weird sort of matyr.

 

 

Hard to say. Considering he is Rands counterpart and the balance of the scales, it would make sense.

 

I find his speech as Ba'alzamon interesting. When he goes on about eternity and lives upon lives repeated in an endless loop. Not to mention that he even learned about the very nature of the pattern back in the Age of Legends. His rant about the struggle between the Creator and Dark One condemning human pawns to live out their fight ad infinitum. It all seems to imply that he has access to a form of knowledge most don't. While his books were too complex and esoteric for mass appeal he was nonetheless known for his natural air of command and voice of reason.

 

 

As for coward. I just don't see it. He had balls the size of boulders. He declared his allegiance to the Shadow at a conference of Aes Sedai and given his stature as a figure and power, not to mention him being seen as the voice of reason, his proclamation sparked massive riots.

 

 

 

My personal musings on the matter are since all things generally have to hang in balance. I find it odd that the last age seems to be the first age where the DO was not properly resealed into the bore and his most recent outbreak seems premature. Considering the rants of Ba'alzamon and what we know of Ishamael. Not to mention his contempt for the pattern and his hatred of having to live out repeated lives; I can of see it as a possibility that Ishamael or his soul used to be the old champion of the light. Hence his locked away memories of previous lives allowing him glimpses back; and why he was able to properly deduce that the wheel turns and turns in repetition. Then furthermore how Ba'alzamon makes a point of the destined Champion of the Light not always having decided/fought for the Light. It opens up an interesting question is Ishamael might not have been destined to be the Champion, but his decision to defect to the Shadow, forced a Lews Therin Telamon to fill the void and bring in the balance. It would certainly explain the sloppiness and inability of the DO to be trapped into the bore again as had been the case in previous turnings of the wheel.

[Val Mickey]

As for coward. I just don't see it. He had balls the size of boulders.

 

Ha.

 

How does he walk then? ;D

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

As for coward. I just don't see it. He had balls the size of boulders.

 

Ha.

 

How does he walk then? ;D

 

 

He was the strongest wielder of the OP in his age. Only Lews Therin was of equal strength.

[Loophole]

Can an evil man be courageous? The word is usually used when talking about an ally or friend. I don't think I have ever heard someone call another they thought were truly evil a courageous person.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Can an evil man be courageous? The word is usually used when talking about an ally or friend. I don't think I have ever heard someone call another they thought were truly evil a courageous person.

 

Evil is a subjective term.

 

 

But the word courageous or brave is used to describe actions, not people. A good example would be no historian would ever "not" call Hitler brave, considering his outstanding WW1 service record. Doesn't mean they appreciate him as a person though.

[Loophole]

Can an evil man be courageous? The word is usually used when talking about an ally or friend. I don't think I have ever heard someone call another they thought were truly evil a courageous person.

 

Evil is a subjective term.

 

 

But the word courageous or brave is used to describe actions, not people. A good example would be no historian would ever "not" call Hitler brave, considering his outstanding WW1 service record. Doesn't mean they appreciate him as a person though.

 

My point was that many people are calling Ishamael a coward and I was wondering if this is based heavily on the fact that they disagree with his way of life.

 

Courage and bravery may apply to actions and not people, however our view of that persons actions are biased based on the person and the way we see them. Its not really brave for me to go for me to drive a friend to the airport so he can make a flight on time, but you might call it brave if I had developed a terrible fear of driving cars but did it anyway to help him out.

 

I think we need some quality time inside his head so we can understand him some more and see if he is just nuts.

[Bridge]

Anyway Moridin is, in my point of view, most humanly from the Forsaken and that make him the perfect candidate to change the sides and fight for the Light.

 

Ha.

Why ha? He seems to me to be obviously conscientious about what had to happen and is the only one who appear to know that the DO victory means the end of all. The other Forsaken  want only power!

[Val Mickey]

@Bridge : Moridin? Humane? The thought just brought a chuckle. The argument is cogent otherwise.

[mossman87]

@Bridge : Moridin? Humane? The thought just brought a chuckle. The argument is cogent otherwise.

 

He's starting to get humane!  At least some of Rand's is creeping into him.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Can an evil man be courageous? The word is usually used when talking about an ally or friend. I don't think I have ever heard someone call another they thought were truly evil a courageous person.

 

Evil is a subjective term.

 

 

But the word courageous or brave is used to describe actions, not people. A good example would be no historian would ever "not" call Hitler brave, considering his outstanding WW1 service record. Doesn't mean they appreciate him as a person though.

 

My point was that many people are calling Ishamael a coward and I was wondering if this is based heavily on the fact that they disagree with his way of life.

 

Courage and bravery may apply to actions and not people, however our view of that persons actions are biased based on the person and the way we see them. Its not really brave for me to go for me to drive a friend to the airport so he can make a flight on time, but you might call it brave if I had developed a terrible fear of driving cars but did it anyway to help him out.

 

I think we need some quality time inside his head so we can understand him some more and see if he is just nuts.

 

 

Tough to say how crazy he is. At one point back in his prime and in his original lifetime he was known "as the voice of reason," in his age. It's why his defection caused such uproar among other things. Reason tends to be at odds with insanity.

 

But then again who knows what excessive use of the TP can cause to the psyche. Or how far his lucid state is returned with a clean slate (new body aka Moridin).