A little more evidence on Demandred's Location?

[Ellagon]

So starting from a few weeks ago, I started to reread the whole WoT series and just started Lord of Chaos. As I was reading the prologue (Demandred at Shayol Ghul) there's one part that realhatly stuck out for me.

 

"Despite the steam it was bitter cold now, now ; he did not allow himself to feel it, but instinct made him pull his fur-lined velvet cloak closer".

 

I think this is significant in the fact that, at the time of LoC, "Randland" is undergoing the effects of the Dark One's taint on summer, making it extremely warm. And as we know from one of Kadere's chapters in FoH, Saldaea is extremely cold in the winter (they only have two methods to travel in the winter, sleds and skates, or shoes similiar to that I believe). Likewise, I believe that Uno once said sometime prior to FoH that the "southland"'s weather(/temperature) is quite different from that in Shienar.

 

This is relevant, because due to Saldaea and Shienar being on opposite sides of "Randland", and both having hard winters, we can assume that the whole of the Borderlands have similiar, if not the same climate.

 

Then bringing it back to past references (not sure who the source is, possibly Lan, Kadere or Uno), Borderland summers are virtually "southland" winters. Which then leads me to believe that, this quote of a fur-lined cloak on Demandred is good evidence for Demandred being in the Borderlands, and masquerading as nobility (a fur-lined velvet cloak).

 

On a final note, yes I do know that people have already theorised the location of Demandred in the Borderlands, but I do not think this little tidpiece has been mentioned. If it has, my apologies, if not - I have more theories in my head =)

[Owayn The Traveller]

I never seen that mentioned before. I think its a good spot.

[Paerish Swar]

I mentioned this back in December in the Demandred spoilers thread.

 

I absolutely agree with you.

 

If I remember correctly, though, other people mentioned the possibility that Demandred put on the cloak because he knew he was going to the cold, cold blight (which I think is nonsense, because, 1) summonses to go to Shayol Ghul appear to come rather quickly and are to be obeyed rather quickly, so he would likely not take the time to go grab a cloak before he Traveled there, and 2) someone who knows the trick to ignore heat and cold would not bother to bring a cloak for a couple minutes worth of cold as he was walking to the Pit of Doom, where it is extremely hot.  That doesn't make any sense.)

 

Another possibility others brought up is that he could be stationed in the far north of Shara or Seanchan.  In both of those places they would likely still be in mid to late spring, and still experiencing snows and very cold weather.

 

I don't think Shara is likely, because even though we don't have many (if any) descriptions of the kind of clothing the Sharans wear, the "fur-lined velvet" part doesn't sound Sharan to me.

 

It could be in keeping with Seanchan styles.  When Aviendha Travels to Seanchan in tFoH to get away from Rand, the Suldam they encounter when they go back to the Gateway were all wearing "long thick, fur-lined cloaks."

 

But for my money, I think the Borderlands, or even Saldaea specifically, fits just as well or even better.  Remember that Saldaea is known, among other things, for its fur trade.  Also, if Demandred had infiltrated the Borderlands he would likely have ensconced himself within the nobility/military elements of the nation - "velvet" would certainly be in keeping with that crowd.

 

If Demandred were hiding in the Borderlands, and following through with the DO's orders to let the Lord of Chaos rule and generally sew chaos himself as well, the fact that that massive Borderland army has been pulled away from where it is supposed to be along with all four of those nation's rulers would be quite the job well done, in my estimation.

 

But as for the Borderland army, I guess I shouldn't fall in to the trap of "everything that we can't explain must be the work of Demandred," that so many of us often default to.

 

Anyway, I think the "fur-lined, velvet cloak" at a time when the rest of Randland is getting noticeably hot, hot, hot is a very good piece of evidence that could point towards Demandred in the Borderlands.  I'm glad you caught it, too. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Indeed, this could very well be a vital clue, but I dont think we have enough evidence to suggest yay or nay on this subject.

 

My own opinion is that Demandred has been everywhere (yes, including the Borderlands)

 

most notably

1. Black Tower.

2. Dragonsworn (Masema)

3. Borderlands

4. Murandy

5. Shara (possibly, I have a feeling there will be a cameo appearance from them at TG)

 

I now think that he has settled down in the Borderlanders or Murandian armies to ochestrate from there at TG

[yoniy0]

Very interesting Ellagon, thanks. You've converted me (which wasn't that difficult, since I was undecided until now. Still, you're the first to suggest an option which has enough merit for me to come down from my fence, and that's something, isn't it?).

Barid Bel Medar, I think you should make up your mind. Yes, Demandred probably had something to do with Masema, but where's his power base? Who did he gather for war?

[Owayn The Traveller]

Cant see him in the black tower. What with Taim, lets be relistic he's a bad man, Moridin and Oran'gar all involved there demandred might be one too many cooks.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Very interesting Ellagon, thanks. You've converted me (which wasn't that difficult, since I was undecided until now. Still, you're the first to suggest an option which has enough merit for me to come down from my fence, and that's something, isn't it?).

Barid Bel Medar, I think you should make up your mind. Yes, Demandred probably had something to do with Masema, but where's his power base? Who did he gather for war?

 

I think you should get glasses

 

I now think that he has settled down in the Borderlanders or Murandian armies to ochestrate from there at TG

[OptimusPrime]

Cant see him in the black tower. What with Taim, lets be relistic he's a bad man, Moridin and Oran'gar all involved there demandred might be one too many cooks.

 

I wonder about this though, because of two things. Was it Aran'gar that said it was Osan'gar and Demandred whos meant to be at the Black Tower? And Kismans PoV says he recieved commands from both Taim AND Demandred to kill Rand, and permission to kill Rand from Moridin if that was the only way to get his possessions, which I took to be the Choeden Kal Access Key.

 

I wonder... Could it be that Taims task is to recruit Ashaman, distinguish the ones that would be useful, then create an opportunity for them to be turned, and then Demandred assumes some team leader type role? They would of course still answer to Taim as well, but Demandred might be the one to interract between the Darkfriend Ashaman and Moridin. (In my Mazridin theory this would be part of Ishamaels involvement at two seperate positions of the Shadows command, having the DF Ashaman believe Demandred is between Taim and Moridin in the pecking order, but even if they arent the same dude I wonder if their setup would resemble this).

 

This stuff about Demandred and the velvet cloak is very interesting, and a good observation. I like many others have theorized that Demandred is involved with the Borderlanders leaving their post. Basheres wife is with that army I think? Or was it his sister, Failes mum? Either way, I think Bashere is the sort of character whose absence could be exploited by the likes of Demandred now that these hints at Saldaea have been mentioned. We know the Saldaeans hate Taim with a vengeance, that Bashere is with Rand because he originally left Saldaea with nine thousand cavalry specifically to hunt Taim, then Bashere and that army start WORKING with Taim (at Rands command of course, but from the Saldaeans PoV it looks much worse than we know it is, not to mention Rands Ta'verenism). The Borderlanders have always had the feel of sticking together about them, and Basheres absence from his nation is something not many people consider, especially given the fact that Demandred is also a general like Bashere... And I also theorized that Demandred and Taim will steer the Black Tower and the Borderlanders against each other, then the Darkfriend Ashaman Travel away, leaving the Light to fight themselves for reasons they think are justified.

 

I think we have nailed it guys. I think Demandreds alter ego is one of the commanders in the Saldaean military that was appointed in Basheres absence hence why we've never had him on screen, and hes been messing with Tenobia or whoever to gather the Borderlanders, using the Rand-Ashaman-Taim-Bashere-Legion of the Dragon setup as something to rile them up. He and Taim instigate the battle between the Ashaman and Borderlanders, who have the magic number of Aes Sedai with them and thats Taims excuse-Mesaanas touch, at Moridins order? Moridin starts putting his cards down, he orders the Shadowspawn to invade the Borderlands, sends Cyndane and Moghedien after Mat and Perrin, and prepares for his deal with Rand.

[yoniy0]

I think you should get glasses

Touché. It's just that your post felt like trying to eat the cake and having it whole. All these different developments were happening at the same time, so where was Damandred? I guess it's possible that he Traveled a lot, but I don't think he did. It's difficult to establish two power bases at the same time.

 

Basheres wife is with that army I think? Or was it his sister, Failes mum?

Faile's Bashere's daughter, and Daira's her mum. She is with Bashere. I don't know if he even has a sister, but he does have siblings, since Tenobia's his niece.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think you should get glasses

Touché. It's just that your post felt like trying to eat the cake and having it whole. All these different developments were happening at the same time, so where was Damandred? I guess it's possible that he Traveled a lot, but I don't think he did. It's difficult to establish two power bases at the same time.

 

Basheres wife is with that army I think? Or was it his sister, Failes mum?

Faile's Bashere's daughter, and Daira's her mum. She is with Bashere. I don't know if he even has a sister, but he does have siblings, since Tenobia's his niece.

 

So you based it on "you dont think he did" ...thats weak.

 

I said all these events look like they had Demandreds hand in (except Shara, we havent really seen anything)

and with travelling, it is possible he could do this, so as for your arguement there, i think your just trying to pick at things.

 

its Tenobia with the BOrderlanders, shes Davram's niece.

 

Edit: I have made up my mind, he has his power base in the Borderlands, and affected all of the other said areas at various times, theres nothing to it, it was quite clear. so again, perhaps you should read closer

[OptimusPrime]

Sorry about the Tenobia thing, thats who I was thinking of. Forgot Davrams wife is with him. Cheers for that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Sorry about the Tenobia thing, thats who I was thinking of. Forgot Davrams wife is with him. Cheers for that.

 

No probs.  :)

[yoniy0]

So you based it on "you dont think he did" ...thats weak.

 

I said all these events look like they had Demandreds hand in (except Shara, we havent really seen anything)

and with travelling, it is possible he could do this, so as for your arguement there, i think your just trying to pick at things.

[...]

Edit: I have made up my mind, he has his power base in the Borderlands, and affected all of the other said areas at various times, theres nothing to it, it was quite clear. so again, perhaps you should read closer

It seems I've offended you, and I'm sorry for that. Maybe I should have taken more time to read what you wrote (or to phrase my response), but I honestly don't think it was clear that you thought he was affecting these other plotlines while based at the Borderlands.

For what it's worth, I agree that he had a hand in the happenings at the Black Tower - though I don't believe he orchestrated Taim's actions - and as I said before I do think it was him that revealed himself to Masema as Rand. The only place I seem to differ with you is regarding Murandy (well, and Shara, but you said yourself that we don't really have any evidence regarding that).

[Barid Bel Medar]

I also think i reacted a bit rashly, i thought you were out to offend me, so I am sorry for being liek that, and perhaps i didnt make it clear (although it was to me anyway) so yea, sorry for that.

 

Anyway, as for your theory, I also agree mostly, Murandy is, a bit like shara, not enough evidence to suggest either way, only vague reference, so as to that, it could go either way, both theories are as likely as another.

 

Again, sorry if i got a bit fired up  ;D I wasnt actually trying to offend either, i just seem to be blunt alot.

 

Ps: A real life example of poor communication just like in the WoT. haha

[Chriswot]

I think the answer to this theory lies in the chapter where Elayne has talks with the borderlanders.  Can anyone give me chapter / book of that scene?  I'd like to go through it on audio book since i don't have the books here.  If Demandred has any sway with the BL's I think we'll see it here. 

[yoniy0]

Knock yourself out. WH, chapter 27: To Surprise Queens and Kings.

But I don't think you'll find anything there. We haven't seen Damandred's alter ego in that book, according to RJ.

[Chriswot]

Not saying we see him in that chapter.  But perhaps some allusions or hints that the BL's are being manipulated.  Thanks off to listen~

[MikeRiley]

If you're looking for hints of that sort, you should also read up on the meeting of the rulers where they all learn they each brought Aes Sedai. Or on the march with Tenobia's thoughts. Both parts mention quite a few people who we don't see in the series.

[OptimusPrime]

There was a scene where Perrin was dealing with Masema and there was some dude on horseback watching them intently, seemed to stand out a bit but I never noticed any followups to it. Does anyone know what bit I mean, and/or who that guy on horseback was?