Who/what is Shaidar Haran?

[Barid Bel Medar]

It's my understanding that SH is the shadow of an image of The Great Lord, not the The Great lord himself, an image.

Moridin is Nae'blis and your right he is just human....he maybe able to transform into SH with all the powers a halfman has.

We have yet to see SH & Moridin on screen together.

 

We havent seen Cadsuane and Egwene in the same scene together, they are the same person? I know what you are saying, but thats teniuous evidence. Again, what would be the point of Moridin "transforming" into SH. And on that note, I doubt that he could "transform" into a myrddraal, even Aginor, who "created" (by accident) doesnt know what Myrddraal really are.

 

No SH is as you said, an image of the DO himself.

[Shadow Rider]

I am still convinced Moridin is The Hand of the Shadow.

[Majsju]

 

As i said, there isnt enough evidence to rule out the SH/Moridin theory completely, and I may be wrong, but its almost impossible that they are the same, theres just no point in Moridin going to the effort to do it.

 

Yes, there is enough evidence. The quote from RJ I posted earlier makes it impossible for the two to be the same.

[Shadow Rider]

Is this the quote you mentioned Majsju?

 

 

 

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

 

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. Its as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creatureit is the Dark One in shadowy form.

 

WinespringBrother: Is it twenty four seven, or just part time.

 

Jordan: Twenty four seven.

 

Winespringbrother: Ohh.

 

Are you sure The Great Lord cannot project an image of himself into Moridin resulting in SH?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Is this the quote you mentioned Majsju?

 

 

 

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

 

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. Its as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creatureit is the Dark One in shadowy form.

 

WinespringBrother: Is it twenty four seven, or just part time.

 

Jordan: Twenty four seven.

 

Winespringbrother: Ohh.

 

Are you sure The Great Lord cannot project an image of himself into Moridin resulting in SH?

 

really, thats ridiculous, its a waste of a person. Moridin has no need ot be SH, he has all the power he needs. SH is the DO's image, a different entity so he has another "leader". The Moridin/SH theory has no purpose, its a theory purely based on the fact they havent been seen together.

 

And what about SH's reaction to Saidin and Saidar? its purely Myrddraal, Moridin could not have that ability, nobody knows how it works.

And what about Moridin's link to Rand? Rand would have noticed if he was going round as SH. Also, Moridin forbids Semirhage's rescue, yet SH does the exact opposite.

Also, Moridin's hand? SH hand is fine. As for him "transforming", apart from it being a ridiculous idea, it is too late to introduce such a big thing in the last book.

 

Really if you insist that they are the same, you will find out differently in the next books, I can see how you may think it is, there is some pretty conspicuous scenes that suggest it, but really, what is the point of moridin being SH? its just uneccessary

[Shadow Rider]

Did you ask SH if his hand was OK?

 

It is not based on the fact they have not appeared on screen together, it is based on the fact that Moridin has been referred to as 'The Hand' and SH as 'The Watcher'.

 

The only thing tripping me up is this....

 

WinespringBrother: Is it twenty four seven, or just part time.

 

Jordan: Twenty four seven.

 

 

I will find away around it.

 

 

Really if you insist that they are the same, you will find out differently in the next books, I can see how you may think it is, there is some pretty conspicuous scenes that suggest it, but really, what is the point of moridin being SH? its just uneccessary

 

Answer me this...and you could blow a hole in my train of thought on the subject.

Has there ever been a Nae'blis named before Moridin?

 

[mossman87]

 

I will find away around it.

 

 

Of course you will, of course.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Did you ask SH if his hand was OK?

 

It is not based on the fact they have not appeared on screen together, it is based on the fact that Moridin has been referred to as 'The Hand' and SH as 'The Watcher'.

 

The only thing tripping me up is this....

 

WinespringBrother: Is it twenty four seven, or just part time.

 

Jordan: Twenty four seven.

 

 

I will find away around it.

 

 

Really if you insist that they are the same, you will find out differently in the next books, I can see how you may think it is, there is some pretty conspicuous scenes that suggest it, but really, what is the point of moridin being SH? its just uneccessary

 

Answer me this...and you could blow a hole in my train of thought on the subject.

Has there ever been a Nae'blis named before Moridin?

 

 

1. We see this in tGS when he goes to rescue Semirhage. and Moridin was pissed at her for blowing up Rand's hand, he didnt want her to be rescued.

 

2. I cant remember where the hand is mentioned as moridin, but if its that random stuff in earlier posts where it mentions the word "hand" then no, you will have to think of something actually correct.

 

3. Enough said, you cant get around it, the fact is, its simply not true, they are two different beings.

 

4. I am not sure about the Nae'blis in the war of Shadow, but yes, Moridin is the first in the series and the 3rd age at least. Which is exactly why there is no need for him to pose as SH, its just a waste of effort to no purpose. The Forsaken obey him, everyone obeys him, he doesnt need to dress up as a flaming Myrddraal. Answer me this, why would he need to become SH?

 

look, i dont really mind if you still persist in thinking SH/Moridin. However, unless you have some actual evidence, I really wouldnt bother arguing, you may possibly be correct, and if it happens, then i will admit i was wrong, but this debate is going nowhere without some compelling evidence on your side. But basically RJ in that quote has proven that SH is a being on his own.

 

Again, the main point is, for what reason would Moridin transform into SH? there are no benefits. Also, you have not adressed the saidar/saidin 'itch' that SH has, he can feel both, it is impossible for Moridin to do so.

furthermore, SH wants to break free from his "link" with SG, his powers are diminished when he is too far away, which is not the case for Moridin, beacuse he can channel Saidin, and the TP doesnt work that way( i think in any case, i may be wrong.)

Two points here, the first stated above, Moridin is not actually connected to SG in a way that diminishes his power (he goes round to Ebou Dar and such killing people, as well as Shadar Logoth to save Rand.) Second, the wanting to escape from the bond to SG can be taken two ways, 1, that SH is the DO in a Myrddraal body, or at least an aspect of him, and he wants to break free faster, or two, SH has started going badass and is thinking of betrayal, both which do not apply to Moridin.

 

 

[Shadow Rider]

You ask for what reason would Moridin transform into SH? there are no benefits.

There would be many benifits, SH has abilities Moridin does not have as Moridin including the itch.

 

SH has started going badass and is thinking of betrayal

What???

 

Your right...there is no point in arguing, if I'm right I'm right & if I'm wrong I'm wrong.....shit happens.

 

Anyway I've been thinking... do I really want to figure this stuff out, and ruin my reading experience for the next books, or are bragging rights more important.

 

I don't want to figure out the end story, I want to read what RJ left us.

[Barid Bel Medar]

You ask for what reason would Moridin transform into SH? there are no benefits.

There would be many benifits, SH has abilities Moridin does not have as Moridin including the itch.

 

SH has started going badass and is thinking of betrayal

What???

 

Your right...there is no point in arguing, if I'm right I'm right & if I'm wrong I'm wrong.....shit happens.

 

Anyway I've been thinking... do I really want to figure this stuff out, and ruin my reading experience for the next books, or are bragging rights more important.

 

I don't want to figure out the end story, I want to read what RJ left us.

 

Very true indeed, and for the record, i wasnt arguing for "bragging rights" as i am sure you were not, but just a (hopefully you saw it this way) good natured debate, if heated, but thats to be expected.

it is fun to throw around ideas and defend/ disprove them.

 

But yes, you are right, at the end of the day, neither of us know for sure whats actually true and it will be alot of fun Reading and Finding out, as RJ said to many questions. ;D ;D

[Duskfire]

If Moridin is SH, I would really like to know how he managed to be able to Shadow Walk, and why he doesn't do it more often rather then Travelling.

[mossman87]

If Moridin is SH, I would really like to know how he managed to be able to Shadow Walk, and why he doesn't do it more often rather then Travelling.

 

 

[Vambram]

 

 

What evidence is there that Shaidar Haran can easily cut off, or shield channelers on the side of the Light from the saidar or saidin?

 

None.

 

I agree. I have not seen any evidence given which indicates SH can shield or cut off Lightside channelers as easily as we have seen him do with the Forsaken. A lack of evidence does not necessarily mean that he cannot do it, but so far I have not seen any evidence that suggests he can.. because if he could, then why hasn't he done so to any of the male or female channelers whom are opposing the DO and the Forsaken?

[Shadow Rider]

After a little deliberation I have come to the conclusion my Theory is wrong.

 

1: Majsju submitted irrefutable evidence from RJ himself.

 

2: Ishamael and SH have appeared together in the same scene.

 

Is Moridin Shaidar Haran? ...... No.

This theory is busted.

[Fains nose]

I think Shadar Haran is a mydraal, who is being used as a proxy by the Dark One, i think that his height is relative to the Dark Ones strength in the world; we seem to have seen him as early as tEotW ( a mydraal who smiled ) but he wasnt so tall back then because the DO's reach was less extensive. Also i think that he can only go where there is evil, thus we have only seen him use his power(which i think is the True Power) where there are Darkfriends. I think that Rands conection to Moridin wil grant SH power over Rand, even though his 'halo of blacknes' seems gone post VoG. Also it is posible that SH is the baby of a fade&human that survived, thus giving him the ability to Channel the TP

[Barid Bel Medar]

[quote author=Shadow Rider link=topic=58914.msg1717418#msg1717418 date=1277009489

2: Ishamael and SH have appeared together in the same scene.

 

where was that?? I totally forgot about this scene.

 

 

[StefanR]

It's the scene where Moridin is introduced as Nae Blis and some of the female forsaken are skeptical, if I'm not mistaken?

[OptimusPrime]

It's the scene where Moridin is introduced as Nae Blis and some of the female forsaken are skeptical, if I'm not mistaken?

 

Moghedien was picked up by Shaidar and told to close her eyes. Shaidar did the teleport thing, then Moridin told her to open her eyes and Shaidar was gone.

 

 

 

What evidence is there that Shaidar Haran can easily cut off, or shield channelers on the side of the Light from the saidar or saidin?

 

None.

 

I agree. I have not seen any evidence given which indicates SH can shield or cut off Lightside channelers as easily as we have seen him do with the Forsaken. A lack of evidence does not necessarily mean that he cannot do it, but so far I have not seen any evidence that suggests he can.. because if he could, then why hasn't he done so to any of the male or female channelers whom are opposing the DO and the Forsaken?

 

To do so would risk the Light finding out about Shaidar. Its like asking why Moridin didnt appear to Mesaana and Alviarin.

 

Shaidar tells Osan'gar that hes blocked. I imagine its a True Power shield. You cant sense the Source through it, nr can you sense the shield because only the True Power user can sense what theyre doing.

[Shadow Rider]

[quote author=Shadow Rider link=topic=58914.msg1717418#msg1717418 date=1277009489

2: Ishamael and SH have appeared together in the same scene.

 

where was that?? I totally forgot about this scene.

 

 

 

The Drakfriends ball in tGH

[Shadow Rider]

yeah, it does seem that way. Semirhage says "why did u betray me?" and such. SH was probably waiting around somewhere to "aid". The only problem with the theory that the DO gave him permission is that he suddenly just was able to sense the TP, we know that the DO does not see everything (Demandred POV LoC) so he isnt everywhere, so i have no idea how the DO managed to strech his hand to give Rand the TP at the exact moment he needed saving. (of course, SH could have planned this, we know too little of the TP to rule out anything)

 

SH is The Hand of the Shadow,  not 100% sure but I'd say The Great Lord Granted the use of the TP through The Hand.

[Duskfire]

To do so would risk the Light finding out about Shaidar. Its like asking why Moridin didnt appear to Mesaana and Alviarin.

 

Shaidar tells Osan'gar that hes blocked. I imagine its a True Power shield. You cant sense the Source through it, nr can you sense the shield because only the True Power user can sense what theyre doing.

 

Yeah its quite plausible that what they are experiencing is simply a True Power Shield. It cant be anything related to Shayol Ghul since Graendal got shielded in her palace, so the TP makes the most sense. Its also somewhat frightening if that is the case, since thats quite a decent advantage for SH and Moridin to have.

 

Hmmm now that I think about it... I wonder why the DO restricted TP usage to everyone except for those two. Surely Forsaken throwing around TP during TG would be of a great use. Its not as if they were constantly using it like Moridin.

[Shadow Rider]

To do so would risk the Light finding out about Shaidar. Its like asking why Moridin didnt appear to Mesaana and Alviarin.

 

Shaidar tells Osan'gar that hes blocked. I imagine its a True Power shield. You cant sense the Source through it, nr can you sense the shield because only the True Power user can sense what theyre doing.

 

Yeah its quite plausible that what they are experiencing is simply a True Power Shield. It cant be anything related to Shayol Ghul since Graendal got shielded in her palace, so the TP makes the most sense. Its also somewhat frightening if that is the case, since thats quite a decent advantage for SH and Moridin to have.

 

Hmmm now that I think about it... I wonder why the DO restricted TP usage to everyone except for those two. Surely Forsaken throwing around TP during TG would be of a great use. Its not as if they were constantly using it like Moridin.

 

Maybe The Great Lord doesn't trust them.

Moridin has been using it for 3000 yrs, well Ishmael has.

[Arkane101]

how can SH be Moridin..? Didn't RJ say SH was present in the start of the great hunt when ishamael gave orders?

[OptimusPrime]

how can SH be Moridin..? Didn't RJ say SH was present in the start of the great hunt when ishamael gave orders?

 

No, RJ said the Fade that confronted Carridin was Shaidar 0.5. Which means if Shaidar was Moridin or Ishamael, the Shaidar aspect has been altered since then, RJ having said even the Dark One doesnt always get it right first time.

 

My theory is that the Dark One possesses Moridin, producing Shaidar. So Shaidar isnt Moridin, nor is he quite the full Dark One, but a lesser Dark One that needs a body produced by the Pattern to exist within the Pattern and it needs to be a channeler so it can still use the True Power.

 

I think the Dark One denied the other Forsaken access because they werent using it enough. From the Dark Ones PoV, in my theory, he can possess people who wield it; only Moridin actually used it enough to be worth it for the Dark One, so the Dark One thinks "Well, Im not gaining anything from the others having access, so theyre not having the comfort of it being there for emergencies." The Dark One gets what he wants from Moridin using it, screw the rest.

[Majsju]

 

 

Hmmm now that I think about it... I wonder why the DO restricted TP usage to everyone except for those two. Surely Forsaken throwing around TP during TG would be of a great use. Its not as if they were constantly using it like Moridin.

 

A theory I came up with way back is that allowing too many people to use it weakens the DO. Look at what Moghedien said to Moridin, only 29 people had ever been allowed to use TP. And those 29 were during the War of Power. Ten years of war, with thousands of Chosen fighting, surely allowing more than these 29 access to TP would have given the Shadow a major advantage. And yet, the DO kept it extremely restricted. Why? Sure, the DO has serious trust-issues, but since he can cut off access whenever he wants, there is little reason to worry about a TP user doing something he does not like.

But if it weakens him...It is said that TP is drawn directly from the DO, it is his own power, so it makes a lot of sense if that is the case.