The Amyrlin's Anger

[StefanR]

It seems to me the problem is that Egwene thinks she knows what Rand should be doing better than anybody else.

[azrael.1289]

Cadsuane, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Min, right, no help there. Egwene's been tied up, but might be able to offer some now.

Min, Nynaeve, Moiraine I agree. Infact all of them have helped him a lot. But while trying to save the world, the fact that you can count the number of people who have helped him unselfishly in a single hand says something.

 

Wouldn't you be? It's a decent skill to have. In fact, I don't see anything bad in what she said. Trying to shove the Dragon in a certain direction is bad? Well, we've seen how that doesn't work, so good point.

No... :( What happened to being honest?

Perfect expample is Lan and Moiraine in EotW. Lan was as honest as he could have benn with Rand and Rand trusted him and accepted advice from him freely. Moiraine on the other hand...well you know what happened

 

Make him do what he should? Well, surely you want him to be doing what he should be doing? How is that not a good thing? As for making him think it was his own idea, what's wrong with that? Essentially it boils down to "We shouldn't nag Rand into doing what he should be doing."

The biggest problem with this as I have been telling is neither Egwene nor Cadsuane nor any AS seem to  know what the Dragon "SHOULD" do in the first place. Rand even comments on that fact in "The One He Lost" in tGS saying

"How I wish she(Moiraine) was still here, Rand thought. He had often been frustrated with her, but she—more than anyone else—had seemed to grasp just what it was he was expected to do. She'd made him more willing to do it, even when he'd been angry with her."

Out of all people that surrounded him, he knew more about what the Dragon "SHOULD DO" because of his questions to Aelfinn and LTT memories. The AS needs to learn something new and share it with him or back off and let him do his job.

 

 

Atlas was standing on the world, supporting the heavens on his shoulders.

I know that. My point was, for a man who can support the skies on his shoulder, he shouldn't have too much of a problem with supporting the world. ;)                                                

[Hadilmir]

Again, you ignored my main point and skipped straight to something you could twist. Egwene has never said she knew what to do for TG better than Rand. What she does know is that he is (was) a diplomatic wreck. That is the guidance she is offering by sending a Grey. Where do you get the idea that Egwene wants to tie Rand to a chair in the Amyrlin's Study? She even argued that Rand should be allowed to roam free and fulfill prophecy in the same chapter, or did you skip that too?

 

When I said "she is not looking towards TG when dealing with Rand" I meant she has yet to send a second embassy to Rand from the SAS to negotiate a TG alliance. Not that she isn't thinking about TG, she united the most influential order in the Westlands to march to TG. Specifically for TG.

 

Min, Nynaeve, Moiraine I agree. Infact all of them have helped him a lot. But while trying to save the world, the fact that you can count the number of people who have helped him unselfishly in a single hand says something.

That does tend to happen when you are as undiplomatic as Rand has been.

[azrael.1289]

Again, you ignored my main point and skipped straight to something you could twist. Egwene has never said she knew what to do for TG better than Rand. What she does know is that he is (was) a diplomatic wreck. That is the guidance she is offering by sending a Grey. Where do you get the idea that Egwene wants to tie Rand to a chair in the Amyrlin's Study? She even argued that Rand should be allowed to roam free and fulfill prophecy in the same chapter, or did you skip that too?

Okay...Please Explain to me how AS diplomacy will help Rand at this moment in time. Also, I never said she will tie Rand up like Elaida did. What she will do is try to make Rand do what the AS think the Dragon should do.

When prodded what she will do after sending in the 3 AS, she herself admits she doesn't know what she'll do with DR, so it's speculations on both our parts.

 

When I said "she is not looking towards TG when dealing with Rand" I meant she has yet to send a second embassy to Rand from the SAS to negotiate a TG alliance. Not that she isn't thinking about TG, she united the most influential order in the Westlands to march to TG. Specifically for TG.

Umm...You do realize that while she was being a noble captive inside WT, the pattern was unravelling. I mean the world would have already been destroyed by the time she united the WT if things had gone slightly slightly differently. In the same chapter she comments TG will take second precedence to WT unification because well she seems to think TG will wait till she has unified the tower and a broken tower is not enough to "manage" Rand.

 

That does tend to happen when you are as undiplomatic as Rand has been.

Really? It's not enough that he is a willing martyr, he needs to be polite diplomatic one too? I mean shouldn't it be the other way. Shouldn't the rest of the world make an effort to be diplomatic to him?

 

Also what else can you expect from him when he had to deal with nobles in Tear, Cairhein, Andor all try to back stab him when he tried being diplomatic. Not at all to mention what happened when he last tried entertaining AS diplomats. RJ has taken 12 books to explain why Rand became as "undiplomatic" as he is now. If you can't understand the reason, we are reading different books.

 

And yeah I realize all Egwene speeches can be interpreted two ways. I chose to interpret it my way because IMO that suits her character's past.

[Hadilmir]

So it all comes down to you not liking Egwene then?

[azrael.1289]

So it all comes down to you not liking Egwene then?

Not at all....It all comes down to my perception of her character. Liking/Disliking her doesn't have anything to do with my perception.

I mean I would never read any book in which I disliked such a major character.

I could also ask you, is your inference because you like her and reading her povs through rose tinted glasses?  ;)

[Durinax]

I hate her, just throwin it out there.

[aunt_pol]

I don't think any of us need worry about Rand submitting to Egwene.

Over TGS, I realised we've seen all of the main characters mature an awful lot. Nyn is really coming into her own. Min was the first to notice that maybe bossing Rand about wasn't the best plan. Mat seems to have accepted his military role, his memories, and his mad wife. Perrin's even accepted he's been a pain in the arse the last couple books.

 

Egwene, in order to become a successful leader of a pack of contrary old biddies, is becoming very hard herself - mirroring Rand, in a small way (look how she is with Gawyn, who she professes to love) - growing into a right little Maggie Thatcher.

Rand, however, is now out the other side of his madness, with (I anticipate) all of Lews Therin's memories nicely integrated. As such, sure as eggs is eggs he'll call her little sister. What age would LTT have been, before the Sealing? He certainly wasn't 22. Egwene always had a gift for getting his temper going, only now he'll be able to let her rant on without rising to the bait, so to speak. He won't dismiss her, or freeze her out, I think - but there'll be no walkin' all over him either.

Rand is now gonna fulfill the promise of the presence Ituralde spotted in him. People - even childhood friends- will subconsciously adjust their thinking of him. He'll get his way, by the simple expedient of being the only one who's lived through this situation before.

 

[azrael.1289]

I hate her, just throwin it out there.

LOL...How do you read all the hundreds of pages in her pov...I mean I hate Gawyn and it's absolute torture to read any chapter he makes an appearance in without throwing the book.

[Durinax]

I hate her, just throwin it out there.

LOL...How do you read all the hundreds of pages in her pov...I mean I hate Gawyn and it's absolute torture to read any chapter he makes an appearance in without throwing the book.

I grit my teeth and hope to find a detail I overlooked that might have a bit of redemption for her, but every detail I have found has made me dislike her even more. Like when she says something about her being a hero of the horn, and saying she's holy vengeance or some such

[aunt_pol]

Well Eg did dream something about one of her actions poss leading to Gawyn's death. We live in hope.

[draconian]

Rand, however, is now out the other side of his madness, with (I anticipate) all of Lews Therin's memories nicely integrated. As such, sure as eggs is eggs he'll call her little sister. What age would LTT have been, before the Sealing? He certainly wasn't 22.  

LTT was around 400 years old when he died. i doubt think he will call her little sister b/c he is older or has more strength in the OP. that is how the white tower does things after all. i think it will be b/c he is now an aes sedai(a real aes sedai b/c the white tower is full of pretenders) and they r for the most part barely trained girls with a fraction of his knowlegde or deeds to there name.

 

that would be much more akin to the way wise one act.

[Durinax]

best part is that rand can now teach them the theory behind new weaves, like he did with cumpulsion removing, and maybe teach them the process of making new weaves, instead of them always using the exact same weaves

[draconian]

best part is that rand can now teach them the theory behind new weaves, like he did with cumpulsion removing, and maybe teach them the process of making new weaves, instead of them always using the exact same weaves

if he or some1 cant then callandor would be all but worthless but he maybe be more than able to teach more than the theories of weaves. in TGS  we all saw semirhage weave with saidin therefore in the AoL it is possible that by means of a link aes sedai were trained to use both sides of the OP. if not how would a circle including men be better except in the amount of power able to be used?

[aunt_pol]

He'll call her little sister, possibly, because with re-integration, he will feel a lot older and more experienced than her. And, once he realised he wasn't in love with her, he did have familial feelings for her there for a while.

 

Here's hoping ToM shows lots and lots of honest communication in Randland.

[Durinax]

He'll call her little sister, possibly, because with re-integration, he will feel a lot older and more experienced than her. And, once he realised he wasn't in love with her, he did have familial feelings for her there for a while.

 

Here's hoping ToM shows lots and lots of honest communication in Randland.

with egwene in the picture it will be one way communication since she refuses to let people know whats happening

[Hadilmir]

with egwene in the picture it will be one way communication since she refuses to let people know whats happening

Neither does Rand/Nynaeve/Elayne/Moiraine/People in power. We get that you don't like Egwene, but atleast make your rants sensible.

[Durinax]

with egwene in the picture it will be one way communication since she refuses to let people know whats happening

Neither does Rand/Nynaeve/Elayne/Moiraine/People in power. We get that you don't like Egwene, but atleast make your rants sensible.

I am basing this on the fact that every time Egwene meets someone in the dream, she demands a full report from them, and gives them nothing. Rand while he does demand information he often will tell a person information that is related to the situation they are discussing. Moraine she did demand all the information and gave nothing in the start, but once she realized that rand is like saidar, and that she has to gently guide him she told him everything she knew when he asked. Elayne often has a full discussion with the women who support her. Nynaeve she often demands information band gives it to those she thinks needs it

 

the only person I can think of off the top of my head who demands every scrap of information from a person then sends them off to do a job without any relative information is Cadsuane. And plus rand has a reason to hold back information, he is the dragon and has darkfriends, assassins and such after him, and he cant tell whose a darkfriend. Egwene on the other hand holds back this information for leverage over others, not for security

[Hadilmir]

I must have missed Elayne and Nynaeve's openness, a lot. Rand does have good reason, but then, so does Egwene.

 

Egwene on the other hand holds back this information for leverage over others, not for security

No... she's fighting for a position of power from the very bottom. Honesty for honesty's sake can't be afforded when just one rumor can destroy her new-found position. Then there are the black ajah and loyalist spies. I can't recall a single time that Egwene has held back something important that wasn't a threat to her Amyrlinship/Life.

[aunt_pol]

I think Min and Nyn will be key to communication. They've both learned that honesty works best with Rand. And they've seen how well Caddy did with bossiness.

[azrael.1289]

I think Min and Nyn will be key to communication. They've both learned that honesty works best with Rand. And they've seen how well Caddy did with bossiness.

I think Caddy also learned some small thing. When Min says something like all this is happening because of them trying yo make Rand do what they want, all of them in the room fall silent including Caddy. I take that as her accepting Min's observation.

[aunt_pol]

I don't know that I'd be so optimistic about Cadsuane. She can be kinda thick.

 

OTOH, Rand when he comes home covered in flowers and smilin', will prob forgive her for fetchin' Tam, as he might realise they were at the end of their tether with worry over what he might do next.

[Cirin]

I think one big thought that has been missing from the last six or so pages of posts is the fact that while Rand is the Dragon Reborn, the whole point has been that he CAN'T do it alone.  He NEEDS other people to succeed.  Without Mat or Perrin, we've been told, the Light cannot win.  Without any number of things being done by any number of people, the Light will not win.  Diplomacy?  Incredibly important.  Belief and order give strength.  The world needs to believe in the Dragon Reborn, and have order and unity, and the Dragon Reborn needs the world to believe in him.  I think when Robert Jordan said in an interview that the Good Guys are in a really tight spot, what it boiled down to is that although Rand has united these different lands under his banner, he didn't actually care about any of them save as a tool.  They're all in shambles, falling apart and distrusting one another.  That point was driven home to him hard at the end to The Gathering Storm when he visited the Seanchan cities... the people there were happy (well, except the channelers).

 

I think Rand has made any number of mistakes, although I don't know that it was all his fault either.  I think the biggest problem that he has had has been the view that he is the Dragon Reborn, and that Tarmon Gai'don is all that matters.  Yes, Tarmon Gai'don will decide the fate of the world, but the key to winning is not to hone the world into a giant Shadar Logoth that battles the Dark One and then is consumed by itself.  When you think of how much Rand has to set right in the world in such a short amount of time following his revelation in Veins of Gold, it does suddenly become a very daunting task.

 

As for Egwene and Rand - I don't particularly like Egwene either (in fact, of all the female characters she's the only one that bugs me), largely because of the attitude that she knows what is best, but I still think that she can help Rand quite a bit, and if she thinks he needs to be guided - why wouldn't she?  Yes, Rand has had great successes - cleansing sai'din, destroying numerous Forsaken, fulfilling prophecies, uniting lands, etc. - but we also have packs of Dragonsworn roaming the country with the Prophet (or did, anyway), civil wars ripping across the land left and right, the Seanchan invading, the Black Tower in utter chaos, entire nations under Rand's control starving, etc.  Sure not all of this is Rand's fault, but when you compare the successes to the negatives in Egwene's eyes, you can see how from an outside observer they could see someone as needing guidance.  Honestly, especially if Rand is now fully integrated, I think Egwene will come fairly quickly to the realization that the "guidance" she can give Rand is limited, and will need to fall back on offering advice.  I could even see that as coming out rather jokingly in their conversations.  Remember that Rand is more Aes Sedai now himself.  Although he was going crazy at the time, he did mention that he was surprised to find that silence and questions do a much better job then yelling - I don't see that going away.

 

Wow... long post.  Sorry about that.  My main point was that I can see where both sides are coming from, and I think both sides have points.  Neither Rand nor Egwene are perfect, and both have been getting bad advice when it comes to that too.  Honestly they both might have done better without any advice from people... although the advice was well meaning, Siuan now has Egwene as very much the Amyrlin.  Moiraine's advice led Rand to treat everyone as tools, and "Death is light as a feather, duty heavier than a mountain?"  Look how much that helped Rand's sanity.  A lot of factors have weighed on the characters minds, and I think both took the advice they've been given to the extremes.

 

As for Cadsuane... her problem was that she tried too hard, I think, in the way that she was used to doing it, with good ol' fashioned tough love (or just good ol' fashioned tough), and that didn't really work out... but actually, it did.  Just not the way she wanted.  She succeeded in making him feel again by really ticking the crap out of him.

[StefanR]

I think it would be hilarious if he integrated, and Egwene started in on him. All he'd have to do is tell her he's more Aes Sedai than she is, and that the modern AS equate to nothing more than a pack of squabbling, petty and self-centered girls. :D

[aunt_pol]

Yeah I'd be inclined to agree with you on most of that, Cirin. I'd just like to add that, arrogant as she is, Eg does say stuff sometimes that gives cause for optimism. She pointed out to Elaida (and the sitters?) that Rand running around free had managed to fulfill a few prophecies all on his own, and as such controlling him would most likely be counter productive. I think the chapter containing their meeting is going to be fun - they haven't met since Cairhien, have they? Good while back, anyhow. They've both changed a hell of a lot since then. I think ToM is gonna be the book that clears the air, gets everyone on the same page more or less for TG.