A new power...

[FarShainMael]

There is no first age, just as there's no 7th age. People in the "first" age will have at least a dim memory of the age before, so they'll believe they are the second at least. Just like the 7th agers wouldn't have knowledge of 6 ages, just maybe the last 2 - like it is with this current setting. There are 7 ages but none of them are numbered. One just happens to come after the other.

 

The current Age is 'called the Third Age by some'. Someone is numbering them. They must have a reason for calling this the Third Age. It is also known there are seven Ages to a Turning. How is this known?

 

[Cirin]

It is known because it is written.

 

After all, it IS ultimately a novel.  The more I think about it, the more I hope it doesn't really go down a metaphysical type route in the finale, and get real involved with themes about the nature of the Dark One or the Creator or the Weavings of the Pattern, etc.  I hope the ending is just pretty straight-forward.  Once it gets all meta-physical, things generally start to fall apart pretty fast.  Anyone see Neon Genesis Evangelion?  Yeah...

[Morsker]

After all, it IS ultimately a novel.  The more I think about it, the more I hope it doesn't really go down a metaphysical type route in the finale, and get real involved with themes about the nature of the Dark One or the Creator or the Weavings of the Pattern, etc.  I hope the ending is just pretty straight-forward.  Once it gets all meta-physical, things generally start to fall apart pretty fast.  Anyone see Neon Genesis Evangelion?  Yeah...

 

Evangelion's problem was using so much symbolism that it was impossible to tell what was really going on. (The most common interpretation, which I found on Wikipedia, is that Shinji is an allegory for the artist himself, who hated anime and thought it was linked to mental illness, and wanted anime fans to "come back to reality" and abandon anime fandom.) It's quite possible to deal with metaphysical topics without burying them in symbolism the way Evangelion did. Mistborn does it. I don't think it would be the right ending for WoT though. I want to see some reveal about the Creator, at least why he doesn't interfere; I'd feel cheated if even that were never revealed. But having every detail explained just wouldn't feel like WoT to me.

[Dreamwalker]

There is no first age, just as there's no 7th age. People in the "first" age will have at least a dim memory of the age before, so they'll believe they are the second at least. Just like the 7th agers wouldn't have knowledge of 6 ages, just maybe the last 2 - like it is with this current setting. There are 7 ages but none of them are numbered. One just happens to come after the other.

 

The current Age is 'called the Third Age by some'. Someone is numbering them. They must have a reason for calling this the Third Age. It is also known there are seven Ages to a Turning. How is this known?

 

 

I've often had the hypothesis that every age ends up thinking it's the Third Age, just because I think that would be an interesting little twist - maybe each can remember/has evidence of two ages before, so they always think they're the Third one  ;)

 

(Note: I know someone's totally going to try to debunk this with the fact that there are a couple of beginning/end notes that are labeled as being from the fourth age, but then it will all just devolve into an argument of whether it is the fictional author dating them that way or the actual author - as in RJ - which we simply can't know. I just think the all "Third Age" thing is a cool idea).

[MikeRiley]

This age is called the third age by some, yes. Why? Did they suddenly end Age 7 and decide "Hey, let's call this one Age 1"? I agree that limits in memory would cause every age to be referred to as the "third" age. In the event where we see writing in the books dated from the fourth age, we can just chalk that up to people still being alive to remember the end of the last age which was called the third. When those people die and their children die and their grand children die.. memory will have faded about the age before the age of legends. Then the fourth age will be called the third age by some.

[Duskfire]

Its because humans need to assign a numerical value to everything, and that includes time. It wouldnt surprise me if channeling was discovered in the "first" age, thus that was decided to be the first age for no real reason other then that. However, doesn't neccessarily mean in the scheme of the Pattern its the first age. And its just one of those things that gets passed on through the generations, time after time; we know of places like Sharom and so forth, so its not entirely unrealistic that the actual official sequence of the Age is known.

[OptimusPrime]

Its because humans need to assign a numerical value to everything, and that includes time. It wouldnt surprise me if channeling was discovered in the "first" age, thus that was decided to be the first age for no real reason other then that. However, doesn't neccessarily mean in the scheme of the Pattern its the first age. And its just one of those things that gets passed on through the generations, time after time; we know of places like Sharom and so forth, so its not entirely unrealistic that the actual official sequence of the Age is known.

 

I agree with this. Time and distance distorting facts is one of Wheel of Times biggest ongoing themes. To assume that this is the Third Age just because it is called that by some is like assuming that in real life, time was never measured in years before Jesus came about, the assumption made solely on us never having heard about their time measurement back then. I dont necessarily think the first age was the one where channeling was discovered though; for all we know, the current Age might actually be the Third, with the buildup to the AoL being the Firts and AoL the Second and the one that brought the Dark One back into it, and Rand could bring about the Fourth Age, but Randlanders themselves might think "Al'Thor remade the Pattern, with the Dark One fully sealed away... lets rebuild civilization, and call this the First Age. As in the First Age after the Last Battle." If an event as epic as that happened in real life, if for example Jesus came back and did something major that changed the entire world forever, theres the chance, however small, that we would start measuring years from that, as opposed to his death last time.

[Silentvoice]

The existence of such a power wouldn't be inconsistent with what we know of the WoT world, but there isn't really any evidence to say that it's there either.

 

WoT tends to work in opposites, and the True Power isn't really the opposite of the True Source.

 

The True Power is an agent of destruction. All manifestations of it are destructive to the pattern in some way. The opposite of this would be an agent of creation, which the True Source is not. The True Source powers the wheel(if the Aes Sedai are to be believed), but even some manifestations of it are somewhat destructive to the pattern. For example, gateways created by Saidin are described as cutting holes in the pattern. These holes are surgical in nature, not at all like the True Power, which is described as literally ripping the pattern apart to create a gateway.

 

Where the True Power has its roots in evil, the True Source seems to be a neutral power. Anybody can use it, regardless of their inclinations.

 

So is there an opposite to the True Power? I think it would be neat if there were, and it's plausible, if not really supported by evidence yet. If it exists, I don't think it would be granted by the Creator in the same way the True Power is granted by the Dark One.

 

 

I would say that the divine power is simply Saidin and Saidar and the creator broke the two in half to promote unity. If I'm wrong and such a power does exist, we won't see it at all in the series. There would have been no point to Rand's cleansing Saidin, there would have been no point to any of the male channelers going mad over the last few thousand years. It would take almost everything away from those major events by making them suddenly unimportant.

 

I don't think so. Consider the amount of effort it takes to be able to channel the True Power, for instance. It takes being in the highest favor with the DO, which means it takes someone with terribly evil tendencies. Channeling the True Source on the other hand requires no such tendencies, in fact it can be channeled by ANYONE as long as they know what they are doing (and have the ability to do so).

 

A "light" power would have similar restrictions, I think. If someone were able to harness it, they would have to be an exceptionally pure soul, however that turns out to be interpreted in WoT. That overused phrase "nobody's perfect" applies here, then. The cleansing of Saidin doesn't lose its importance, because almost nobody would have access to this special power.

 

I'm not really arguing for its existence, but I do think its existence would be entirely consistent with the Wot world, and really neat to boot.

[brown_hound]

The existence of such a power wouldn't be inconsistent with what we know of the WoT world, but there isn't really any evidence to say that it's there either.

 

WoT tends to work in opposites, and the True Power isn't really the opposite of the True Source.

 

The True Power is an agent of destruction. All manifestations of it are destructive to the pattern in some way. The opposite of this would be an agent of creation, which the True Source is not. The True Source powers the wheel(if the Aes Sedai are to be believed), but even some manifestations of it are somewhat destructive to the pattern. For example, gateways created by Saidin are described as cutting holes in the pattern. These holes are surgical in nature, not at all like the True Power, which is described as literally ripping the pattern apart to create a gateway.

 

Where the True Power has its roots in evil, the True Source seems to be a neutral power. Anybody can use it, regardless of their inclinations.

 

So is there an opposite to the True Power? I think it would be neat if there were, and it's plausible, if not really supported by evidence yet. If it exists, I don't think it would be granted by the Creator in the same way the True Power is granted by the Dark One.

 

 

I would say that the divine power is simply Saidin and Saidar and the creator broke the two in half to promote unity. If I'm wrong and such a power does exist, we won't see it at all in the series. There would have been no point to Rand's cleansing Saidin, there would have been no point to any of the male channelers going mad over the last few thousand years. It would take almost everything away from those major events by making them suddenly unimportant.

 

I don't think so. Consider the amount of effort it takes to be able to channel the True Power, for instance. It takes being in the highest favor with the DO, which means it takes someone with terribly evil tendencies. Channeling the True Source on the other hand requires no such tendencies, in fact it can be channeled by ANYONE as long as they know what they are doing (and have the ability to do so).

 

A "light" power would have similar restrictions, I think. If someone were able to harness it, they would have to be an exceptionally pure soul, however that turns out to be interpreted in WoT. That overused phrase "nobody's perfect" applies here, then. The cleansing of Saidin doesn't lose its importance, because almost nobody would have access to this special power.

 

I'm not really arguing for its existence, but I do think its existence would be entirely consistent with the Wot world, and really neat to boot.

 

Here here. Well said SV!

[Dreamwalker]

Where the True Power has its roots in evil, the True Source seems to be a neutral power. Anybody can use it, regardless of their inclinations.

 

As I said in my earlier post, one of the main traits of the Light/the Creator is freedom in the form of absolute neutrality. He says he will "take no part" so it makes sense for his power to be neutral and to be able to be used freely. Essentially in WoT we have more freedom versus domination instead of classical good versus evil.

 

A "light" power would have similar restrictions, I think. If someone were able to harness it, they would have to be an exceptionally pure soul, however that turns out to be interpreted in WoT. That overused phrase "nobody's perfect" applies here, then. The cleansing of Saidin doesn't lose its importance, because almost nobody would have access to this special power.

 

If a power had these restrictions and almost no one had access to it, it would no longer be the opposite of the True Power because its restrictions would be extremely similar to those for the True Power. The opposite of the True Power, which requires permission and can only be channeled by a select few, would be a power that can be channeled by anyone freely. Sound familiar? The One Power is the opposite of the True Power.

[brown_hound]

A thought...

 

Not a one or many, even with the greatest sa'angreal can create that which the Creator has.

 

The elements Air, Earth, Fire, Water and Spirit, can all be 'guided, and channeled' with the OP, yet these elements cannot be created with the OP.

 

Take for example the making of Ter'angreal by Elayne? Silver is used in the making of the a'Dam?

The chains at TV Eggy changes into Cuendillar?

 

At the height of use of the OP, during the breaking, men rose mountains from the earth, brought in the sea, and ultimately changed the face of the earth. They never made something from nothing-

 

They drastically changed what was already there!

 

Has anybody seen an example of true 'Creation'? in that something is made from nothing in WoT? I cannot recall myself.

 

Whether the 'Light Power', or 'Creation Power' will play a part in the series is not the question here.

 

I'm insisting there has to be a polar opposite to the TP, as RJ has shown us through 12 books- every Yin has its Yang in the WoT.

 

[FarShainMael]

A "light" power would have similar restrictions, I think. If someone were able to harness it, they would have to be an exceptionally pure soul, however that turns out to be interpreted in WoT. That overused phrase "nobody's perfect" applies here, then. The cleansing of Saidin doesn't lose its importance, because almost nobody would have access to this special power.

 

I'm not really arguing for its existence, but I do think its existence would be entirely consistent with the Wot world, and really neat to boot.

 

Here's another neat and consistent datum: there is in Randland an 'exceptionally pure soul', who may, just possibly, be able to channel - Rand's half-brother, Galad.

 

PS: I can't get out of my head the recollection that, in LotR, 'galad' is Elvish for light..

 

 

[FarShainMael]

It is known because it is written.

 

Exactly. Randland does have written records, so there would be more than a 'dim memory' pf previous Ages.. until legend fades to myth, anyway.

 

[Luckers]

I like this assumption that 'pureness' would grant the Creator's aid. On what basis do you suggest the Creator respects pureness or goodness? That the Dark One attracts evil things doesn't mean the Creator is a saint.

[FarShainMael]

Simple. The WoTverse is about balance of opposites.

 

[FarShainMael]

A thought...

 

Not a one or many, even with the greatest sa'angreal can create that which the Creator has.

 

The elements Air, Earth, Fire, Water and Spirit, can all be 'guided, and channeled' with the OP, yet these elements cannot be created with the OP.

 

Take for example the making of Ter'angreal by Elayne? Silver is used in the making of the a'Dam?

The chains at TV Eggy changes into Cuendillar?

 

At the height of use of the OP, during the breaking, men rose mountains from the earth, brought in the sea, and ultimately changed the face of the earth. They never made something from nothing-

 

They drastically changed what was already there!

 

Has anybody seen an example of true 'Creation'? in that something is made from nothing in WoT? I cannot recall myself.

 

Whether the 'Light Power', or 'Creation Power' will play a part in the series is not the question here.

 

I'm insisting there has to be a polar opposite to the TP, as RJ has shown us through 12 books- every Yin has its Yang in the WoT.

 

 

I agree. Much as I like Dreamwalker's take on the OP, I don't see it as balancing the TP. This is because the OP, and the True Source itself, are - AIUI - components of creation, alongside space, time, and matter; whereas the TP is the DO and therefore is external to creation, not a part of it. This seems to me to demand a balancing 'essence' of the Creator.

 

But as you say, that doesn't mean it has to be available to or used by humans!

 

[Silentvoice]

I like this assumption that 'pureness' would grant the Creator's aid. On what basis do you suggest the Creator respects pureness or goodness? That the Dark One attracts evil things doesn't mean the Creator is a saint.

 

I should have been more careful in my wording. I didn't mean to imply that this new power (should it exist) is connected to the Creator in the same way that the TP is connected to the Dark One. The TP's connection to the dark one is far from decided anyhow, so to make any generalization from what little we know wouldn't be very productive.

 

That's as far as I'll let myself take that reasoning. There are literally infinitely many ways one could speculate a new power into existence, this way is the one that makes the most sense to me.

[Silentvoice]

Where the True Power has its roots in evil, the True Source seems to be a neutral power. Anybody can use it, regardless of their inclinations.

 

As I said in my earlier post, one of the main traits of the Light/the Creator is freedom in the form of absolute neutrality. He says he will "take no part" so it makes sense for his power to be neutral and to be able to be used freely. Essentially in WoT we have more freedom versus domination instead of classical good versus evil.

 

A "light" power would have similar restrictions, I think. If someone were able to harness it, they would have to be an exceptionally pure soul, however that turns out to be interpreted in WoT. That overused phrase "nobody's perfect" applies here, then. The cleansing of Saidin doesn't lose its importance, because almost nobody would have access to this special power.

 

If a power had these restrictions and almost no one had access to it, it would no longer be the opposite of the True Power because its restrictions would be extremely similar to those for the True Power. The opposite of the True Power, which requires permission and can only be channeled by a select few, would be a power that can be channeled by anyone freely. Sound familiar? The One Power is the opposite of the True Power.

 

On the first paragraph:

__

I didn't mean to imply that this new power be connected to the Creator in the same way the TP is to the Dark One.

__

 

On the second paragraph:

__

That's an interesting point, but it's not clear yet if the exclusivity of the True Power is an actual property of the True Power, or a consequence of the Dark One's will (i.e. can he grant its access to as many people as he wants?).

 

Even if it were an intrinsic property of the TP though, I would consider it a nonessential property. The fact that it be exclusive is hardly a defining characteristic when compared to its other properties.

[Cirin]

Although if you think of the True Power as being the Dark One, then there doesn't really need to be a counterpoint from the Creator that shows up in the story.  After all, the Creator already said that He's not getting involved - they have everything they need already to defeat the Dark One.

 

Since we don't really know what the Dark One, let's picture him as a sentient, malignant energy source - his energy being the True Power.  In that sense, the True Power IS the Dark One, and the Dark One IS the True Power - power that he lets others tap into, but ultimately has no direct counterpoint that appears in the story because the Creator is not getting involved.  The True Power is sort of like the Dark One getting directly involved in a situation, giving energy to those that he deems to give it to, and restricting it from those he does not.  That's how I always saw it, anyway - I might be wrong, but it makes sense to me that the True Power is not a neutral tool, and that it's only counterpoint would be the Creator directly giving someone access to His power... which, again, he said he wasn't going to do.  He gave them the Wheel, the Pattern, and the One Power, and that is enough.

[mossman87]

RJ has said Mordeth's power is the polar opposite on the DO, and that's why they cause such big sparks.  Wouldn't that be considered the opposite power of the DO?

 

I think you’ll find this covered elsewhere, but here goes.  The evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the Shadow might be considered positive and negative poles.  They attract, as do the positive and negative poles of two magnets, but if they make contact, the result is more like making contact between the positive and negative poles of your car battery.  Big sparks.  Really big sparks.

 

 

[Silentvoice]

RJ has said Mordeth's power is the polar opposite on the DO, and that's why they cause such big sparks.  Wouldn't that be considered the opposite power of the DO?

 

I think you’ll find this covered elsewhere, but here goes.  The evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the Shadow might be considered positive and negative poles.  They attract, as do the positive and negative poles of two magnets, but if they make contact, the result is more like making contact between the positive and negative poles of your car battery.  Big sparks.  Really big sparks.

 

 

 

I think his use of the word "pole" and the idiom "polar opposite" have different meanings. What he meant is that they were two different brands of evil, but both evil nonetheless. I've always viewed Shadar Logoth and Mordeth as the "lawful evil" type, and the DO as the "chaotic evil" type.

 

A true polar opposite wouldn't be evil at all.

 

 

[AimlessZealot]

I'm going to delightfully jump into the fray and play a bit of devil's advocate on a number of points...

Forgive me for my length, I am wordy. Mea Culpa.

 

I see the word 'evil' bandied about very liberally in this discussion but this seems to be a pretty assumptive statement. The Dark One appears to want to destroy all that exists (for obvious reasons as it would release him from his prison) and Shadar Logoth appears to want to corrupt... and I can certainly understand from a subjective position how this might be deemed evil... but from a purely objective point of view, we do not call the lion evil for preying upon the antelope or the spider evil for catching the fly. Just because it is in a thing's nature to kill or destroy doesn't really exclusively warrant the term 'evil'.

 

I have always seen the system as a four point balancing act with each serving a fundamental pole in the cosmos, half light and half darkness, half passive and half active.

 

Saidin - Light, representing Domination and Control (Active)

Saidar - Light, representing Submission and Guidance (Passive)

Shai'tan - Shadow, representing Entropy and Annihilation (Active)

Shadar Logoth - Shadow, representing Corruption and Subversion (Passive)

 

The argument was made that we've never seen anything created with the One Power and after a good bit of thought, I am inclined to agree... but I think this argument undercuts itself--We've never actually seen anything 'created' in the purest sense (from nothing) by anything. Even the creation of the reality by the Creator carries suggestions that the Creator was working in a system that had things (The Dark One for example) already present... we cannot even assume that there was an act of pure creation then. Given the very cyclical, causal nature of this cosmos I think a strong argument could be made against the idea of pure creation.

 

Further, I really dislike the idea of a 'pure' soul in general... in this series more than most any other fantasy series, the idea of 'good' and 'evil' is so terribly subjective it's almost painful. We have a clear division between those who serve the Shadow and those who oppose it, but neither side holds a monopoly on either moral position. There have been terrible people who served the Light and there have been decent folk who served the Shadow.

Beyond the DO's approval (which is of course, an assumption made from comments by the Forsaken) we've never really seen any evidence that the True Power has any criteria for use beyond the ability to channel (see RJ Q&As). We also have no reason to assume that the One Power isn't the Creator's power... If the Creator truly isn't getting involved that means he could not restrict access to his Power like the DO appears to do. Just half of the One Power channeled by a bunch of unlinked men in the heat of battle was enough to create a seal that seems to have held for thousands of years on the Bore.

 

And on a side note -- I've always believed that Shai'tan is the "lawful evil" one--He creates and uses hierarchies, wants targeted destruction before corruption and appears to serve an agenda. Shadar Logoth on the other hand destroys mindlessly (Mashadar) or corrupts (Mordeth), was apparently formed from raw emotions and is highly erratic.

 

[FarShainMael]

The nature of evil is a complex subject and it's as difficult to define as it is to define life. Still, even so, we can talk about 'life' in terms of what it does rather than what it is. Living things move, feed, reproduce, sense and respond to their environment, and so on. Similarly, 'evil' might be thought of as that which goes against nature - death goes against life, theft goes against ownership, disease goes against health, and so on. But even that is full of holes. What is 'disease' to us is a very good party to bacteria; 'death' to an antelope is lunch to a lion.

Perhaps 'real evil' is damage/destruction/death which has no positive purpose at all, eg the fighting and dying which was happening in Hinderstap.

 

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about evil:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil

 

I like your 4-point balance (though speaking personally I would consign 'domination' and 'submission' to the Shadow).

 

About creation.. I've mused on this myself, a bit. I used the good old computer game/simulation analogy to present the notion that the Creator and the DO are computer designer and hacker, and the Wotverse exists Tron-fashion in its RAM.

 

I don't think the OP is creative, no, but the TP is destructive to the Pattern. This suggests that there must be a Light-power intrinsic to the Creator, which he used to program his computer with to continue the analogy.. but he's not likely to hack his own program. He has a Champion to handle that sort of thing for him.

 

There have been terrible people who served the Light and there have been decent folk who served the Shadow.

 

Depending upon the standpoint and the nature of good/evil, it might be argued that to serve the Light is good therefore the people who do so are not really 'terrible', and likewise those who serve the Shadow are not decent at all. Consider Verin.. yes she joined the BA, and did things of which she was ashamed, but she was fighting the Light's corner even so. 'By their fruits shall you know them'.

 

As for different evils.. Christianity enumerates 7 'deadly' sins; anger, envy, lust, and so on. Perhaps the DO is Envy, and SL is Anger!

 

[Vermillion]

The Dark One is certainly destruction.  Chaos is the destruction of order.

 

The way I look at it is the Creator takes no active role as he said to Rand(I wonder why he never talks or thinks about it).  He made the Seven Age Wheel Pattern/Lace Pattern of individuals.  That automated system is the order of the Universe.

 

Creator created and the Wheel Balances it with Order vs. the Dark One is Destruction and his proxies create Chaos to break the order of the wheel.

[Cirin]

I think people tend to take the metaphysics of the Wheel of Time perhaps a little too far at times, though.  I know Robert Jordan was a physicist and loved building his world, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he spent all his time delving into the metaphysical truths of the Universe which he had created, so that he might create a view of "good" and "evil" that is both morally ambiguous and yet defined within societal norms.  Even if he did, I doubt it will be in the books, maybe not even in the Encyclopedia.  Sometimes there are things that are simply beyond us.  Personally, I think the Dark one is just the Dark One, and it's bad if he wins.  I think RJ wanted to write a good story, not theorize on the metaphysical principles of good, evil, and the Universe.

 

But, I don't say that to stop anyone's fun that likes to speculate about these things.  By all means, carry on if you wish.  ;)