Fortuona on a leash

[Dida]

And if you apply the rest of what I said to that you might have noticed I indicated Nyneaves strength as a factor in her possible early slowing (my opinion only - Its just the impression I get)

 

 Nynaeve looks little more than twenty, while chronological she is about 27 years old.  Nynaeve was born in 973 N.E.   That is roughly the same gap between slowed appearance and real age, which both Tuon and Talaan din Gelyn have.

 

 

Instead, they were all too likely to hold sisters up to the standard of their Rule. And find the sister wanting! It might not be Nynaeve’s fault, exactly, that she appeared to be little more than twenty—she had slowed early—but age was important to the Kin, and she had chosen to spend most of her time with them.

 

 

Source:  Winter’s Heart, Chapter 8 “The Sea Folk and Kin” - Elayne point of view

 

 

 

and since Tallaan's strength is on a level with Nyneave it certaintly makes sense that Talaan has slowed by nineteen.

 

  It is hard to say when either Nynaeve or Talaan began to channel the first time each.  However, Talaan had the advantage of have female relatives knowing what to look for, which Nynaeve did not have.  Talaan like some of the other Two Rivers girls later taken by Verin & Alanna probably began training earlier in life than Nynaeve did.

 

  Even more interestingly is the fact that Nynaeve gained a "slowed appearance" while having a "block" in place, before going to the White Tower.  Tuon's own block is her belief she has a choice to say no, when her face and body show otherwise.  

 

 

 

Tuon on the other hand... The only time we get an indication of her knowing what is going on in regards to channeling she is in control of an a'dam a fact you seem to be ignoring.

 

 Tuon saw something she should not have if Tuon had the level of training 29 of 29 other Sul'dam had originally, who are now captives of the Kin now.  

 

  Literally none of those Sul'dam saw weaves, yet Tuon does see weaves.  Tuon knows what she does, unlike the few other examples of Sul'dam we have--Bethamin, Seta, Renna.

 

  Does Bethamin, Seta, or Renna have a "slowed appearance"?  Nope.

 

 

 

What has Rand got to do with weather or not Tuon can see weaves?

 

The point was that even male channelers have to see the weaves to channel the power.  Meaning if Rand was totally blind he could not channel weaves himself.  Just like when Elayne was blindfolded, she could not channel saidar herself.  But Elayne could still feel the power and grasp which of the five elements was used roughly.  

 

 That is one commonality between male and female channelers, each need to see the weaves to channel--saidar or saidar.   Although one can tie a weave off and it'll hold for a given duration of time.  

 

 

  Sul'dam channelers using damane, do not typically 'see weaves' at all. So-called 'experienced' Sul'dam have to tell the masses of non-weaves seeing Sul'dam what to do.  'Experienced Sul'dam' are channelers whether unknowing, blocked, or buffered by wearing an a'dam frequently.  

 

   

Which brought him back to the problem he had been trying to avoid, he realized with an inward start. He was not a man to shy from difficulties, much less ignore them blindly, but this was different from any he had faced before. He had fought in two dozen battles with damane used on both sides; he knew the way of them. It was not only a matter of striking out with the Power. Experienced sul’dam could somehow see what damane or marath’damane did and damane would tell the others, so they could defend as well. Could sul’dam see what a man did, too? Worse . . .

 

“You will release the sul’dam and damane to me?” he said. Taking a deep breath in spite of himself, he added, “If they’re still sick, it will be a short fight and bloody. On our side.”

 

 

Source: The Path of Daggers, Chapter 24 "A Time for Iron" - Seanchan General Miraj point of view (he died shortly afterwards)

 

  To answer Miraj question, no, the Sul'dam could not 'see' what a man did with his weaves.  

 

 

   Although, Lanfear once commented to Rand how a woman can reaction and defend against weaves of saidin she does not 'see'.

 

 

He looked at Lanfear. She still hung there, as complacently as if taking the air on a streamside. She was trying to lull him, to gull him into softening toward her. He hesitated over the flows holding her. If he tied them off and left her, she might tear half the Stone down trying to get free—if a passing Trolloc did not kill her, thinking she was one of the Stone’s folk. That should not have troubled him—not the death of a Forsaken—but the thought of leaving a woman, or anyone, helpless for Trollocs repelled him. A glance at her unruffled composure rid him of that thought. No one, nothing, in the Stone would harm her as long as she could channel. If he could find Moiraine to block her . . .

 

Once more Lanfear took the decision from him. The impact of severed flows jolted him, and she dropped lightly to the floor. He stared as she stepped away from the wall, calmly brushing her skirts. “You can’t do that,” he gasped foolishly, and she smiled.

 

“I do not have to see a flow to unravel it, if I know what it is and where. You see, you have much to learn. I like you like this. You were always too stiff-necked and sure of yourself for comfort. It was always better when you were a bit uncertain of your footing. Are you forgetting Callandor, then?”

 

 

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 10 "The Stone Stands" - Rand al'Thor point of view with Lanfear in Tear

 

  Lanfear's explanation points out, how 'Experienced Sul'dam' ended up defending themselves against male channelers.  They finally figured out what the Asha'man were doing and where the weaves were located.  

 

 

  What about Sul'dam who cannot see their own weaves, nor Saidin weaves?

 

 

  Their out of luck, really against experienced male channelers.  That explains partially why 29 out of 29 Sul'dam captured by Rand's Asha'man were non-experienced Sul'dam.  

[wvlr2]

I agree Dida that it is very suspicious.

 

What could be the mechanism that would account for this conflict?

 

1.    Big Conspiracy theory (maybe?) they Imperial Family has (mostly) had channelers all along?

 

      Supporting evidence –

a) The Crystal Throne. 

b) The last male Emperor went crazy. 

c) The Imperial family might not submit to testing?  (At least not in public view). 

d) All the High Blood seem to have rights to do things that would be against the law for anyone else.    The Royal family even more so.    And now that she is Empress she can have (x) number of people killed for no given reason. (Bye, bye Mor)

 

      If so - maybe once an individual becomes one of the eligible few Empress / Emperor Candidates they receive some private training?    Maybe learn a special family known (masking) weave?    Maybe that is one of the reasons that the Empress needed to have so many children so a few potential (non-channelers) could be weeded out as well as other unsuitables?

 

 

2.    Little conspiracy theory - Tuon already channeled - and found a weave that hides her ability.    She has had access to a very large number of damane and could have learned the weave from any of them.    While we have seen several sul'dam that as soon as they learned that they could channel they begged for the leash, we have also seen more than a few (Bethamin, Seta, Renna...) that were determined not to be collared & some people that were willing to hide the issue.    Surgoth, Tuon (herself), Sluca....

 

 

3.    The unconscious channeler.  Many wilders unconsciously channel to do something very important to them.      Nynaeve "healed"  MANY times this way, but the list is nearly endless.    What is important to Tuon? – Not to be caught as a channeler!        Maybe Tuon channeled / channels the "masking weave" on her own.  It is very important to her!

 

 

4.    Talents – maybe it is an unconscious talent that Tuon has.    We have had many odd and unusual talents show up in the books.    It is even said that there are many lost talents.

 

 

1 & 2 require conscious effort on the part of the Empirical family or Toun do we have any POVs that would specifically make either of there false.      I can’t think of any but never read the series with this idea in mind.

 

3 & 4 could be entirely unconscious – subconsciously denied by Tuon.   

 

 

Other things that aid all these possibilities is the Seanchan custom that lower cast people can not look higher cast people in the eyes.

 

 

Anything that I missed?

 

[Cirin]

3.    The unconscious channeler.   Many wilders unconsciously channel to do something very important to them.      Nynaeve "healed"  MANY times this way, but the list is nearly endless.     What is important to Tuon? – Not to be caught as a channeler!        Maybe Tuon channeled / channels the "masking weave" on her own.   It is very important to her!

 

I think it's more than just not wanting to be caught channeling.  I think what is important to her and all the Seanchan is to not be ABLE to channel.  I believe her when she said even if she could learn, she will not.

 

2.    Little conspiracy theory - Tuon already channeled - and found a weave that hides her ability.    She has had access to a very large number of damane and could have learned the weave from any of them.    While we have seen several sul'dam that as soon as they learned that they could channel they begged for the leash, we have also seen more than a few (Bethamin, Seta, Renna...) that were determined not to be collared & some people that were willing to hide the issue.    Surgoth, Tuon (herself), Sluca....

 

I just don't see any indication that the thought of her being able to channel has ever crossed her mind, much less that she has learned a way to hide her channeling from others.  We've even had chapters from her PoV and have gotten no indication that she is secretly a channeler hiding her dark secret.  While it's possible that she has perhaps channeled sometime in the past (although we don't really have any indication that she did), I really don't think she's in on some conspiracy to hide her marath'damane ways.

 

Plus, I imagine that whatever test they have to weed out damane would have singled her out.  While we have no indication that she was tested for damane, we have no indication that she was not, either.  The only testing they ever talk about was testing to be a sul'dam, which was unusual because a member of the Royal Family would never become a sul'dam any more than Gawyn would become a horse breeder by trade.

[SvetSedi]

 

Prior to the Verin reviel, I might have agreed with you.  But after all those books & POVs we did not KNOW intil tGS.

 

Also look at Bethamin's POV she obviously thinks  Seta & Renna should be collered but she does not think that she should be.

 

As mentioned above - there are a lot of valid questions about Tuon & her family.

[FarShainMael]

I just don't see any indication that the thought of her being able to channel has ever crossed her mind

 

It hasn't..

 

4.    Talents ? maybe it is an unconscious talent that Tuon has.    We have had many odd and unusual talents show up in the books.     It is even said that there are many lost talents.. < these> could be entirely unconscious ? subconsciously denied by Tuon.

 

 

[jadelollipop]

This may be off topic or just odd,but the idea of Tuon seeing the weaves being a Talent rather than a sign of her ability to channel reminds me of Laurell K Hamilton's Anita Blake. (also a small dark woman  ;) ) Anita Blake carries the strain of at least 5 shape-shifters but she is not a shape-shifter.

 

[Morsker]

She could certainly be a wilder with a block so she doesn't know she can channel, and with the extreme luck of having found a way to mask her channeling ability, instead of healing, compulsion, eavesdropping, or whatever else wilders usually stumble onto. But unless she also stumbled onto inverting and reversing, she'd've channeled around a sul'dam or Aes Sedai by now and been caught.

 

I also think the generalization from the Imperial family not testing for the bracelet to not testing with the collar is unwarranted. The former is sufficiently explained by the standard attitude that it's vulgar for nobility to learn a profession. We retain this even under modern democracy, where we expect politicians to be career politicians, and executives to be trained in "business management" not a specific trade. In feudal societies this division is much stronger.

[wvlr2]

She could certainly be a wilder with a block so she doesn't know she can channel, and with the extreme luck of having found a way to mask her channeling ability, instead of healing, compulsion, eavesdropping, or whatever else wilders usually stumble onto. But unless she also stumbled onto inverting and reversing, she'd've channeled around a sul'dam or Aes Sedai by now and been caught.

Well that could be easily explained by the fact that a0 they would have to be present when it was actually done AND few Seanchan of any kind look directly at her.  How long would the "masking weave" hold, that depends on how it was made.    Some weaves last a long time, which would be handled by the same "need" that required the weave in the first place.  Sul'dam are required to look down.    The same with damane.    As far as Aes Sedai - she spends very little time around them.

 

 

 

I also think the generalization from the Imperial family not testing for the bracelet to not testing with the collar is unwarranted. The former is sufficiently explained by the standard attitude that it's vulgar for nobility to learn a profession. We retain this even under modern democracy, where we expect politicians to be career politicians, and executives to be trained in "business management" not a specific trade. In feudal societies this division is much stronger.

But it is a possability - until we see something that specifically negates it.

 

 

 

Look, I am not saying any of these are likely - just possabilities.  I am just trying to find "mechanisms" that would answer all the issues that Dida brought up.    You have to admit that he did have some interesting points.

[SvetSedi]

This may be off topic or just odd,but the idea of Tuon seeing the weaves being a Talent rather than a sign of her ability to channel reminds me of Laurell K Hamilton's Anita Blake. (also a small dark woman  ;) ) Anita Blake carries the strain of at least 5 shape-shifters but she is not a shape-shifter.

I did not mean that she had a talent to see weaves.  I ment that it might be a Talent that she can not be seen.    Sorry if it confused you.

Not that I think that it is likely that such a Talent exists.    I am just trying to find a feasable solution to the issues.

[FarShainMael]

I just cam across this intriguing little item in my WH read-through.

 

From Ch20, Bethamin PoV. She has been recalling how she walked in on Renna and Seta trying to remove each other's a'dam . She muses;

Obviously Alwhin had found the collared pair of sul'dam and reported them to Suroth. And Suroth had sheltered the Empire by protecting Renna and Seta, dangerous as that was.

 

Suroth has known since tSR Ch1 that sul'dam can channel, if not before. She's a DF, which suggests that her motivation in 'protecting' R and S is to assist the DO. Certainly if the sul'dam secret became widely known, it would shake the Seanchan empire to its foundations, particularly since the Empress Fortuona (mslf) can herself channel. The DO wouldn't want that to happen!

 

[Sharaman]

Egeanin worked it out in TSR after she held Bethamin, and then had her conversation with Elyane-Nynaeve where Elayne asked if Egeanin wanted to be tested and Egeanin learnt that women could be taught to channel. She (Egeanin) admitted she had worked it out when Nyn was telling that for every woman that's leashed, 10-20 walk free.

 

Egeanin blurts it out again in CoT when she's being healed by Teslyn after being stabbed by Renna.

At that point of time, Tuon is impassive as she listens while Teslyn is stunned. But Tuon obviously figures it out since she's got her ideological response to Mat, when she leashes the AS in KoD.

 

As to testing, everybody outside the Royal Family at least, including sul'dam, are tested annually with an A'dam until they're 25, as mentioned by Bethamin. Bethamin herself has been a sul'dam longer than that (Egeanin had worked with her for over 10 years). Somebody like the Der'sul'dam Melitene has been sul'dam for decades.

 

Sul'dam don't slow, until and unless they actively learn to channel. Nobody does. Just because Tuon can see weaves doesn't mean that she has slowed - there are lots of small, underdeveloped 19-year-old girls - some of them win gymnastic medals. We have no evidence that Tuon can and does actively channel.

 

As to not figuring Sul'dam can channel - well, Egwene, Teslyn, Edesina have all been in the company of experienced sul'dam for extended periods without figuring it out. Egwene worked it out from first principles but she didn't feel the "sense of kinship" that channelers do.

Obviously damane don't figure it out either.

 

However, Aviendha and Alys do figure out that sul'dam can channel at first meeting though they say it feels strange - weak and never practiced. Perhaps Avi and Alys have a talent. Perhaps damane just discount it as "Oh! She's an experienced damane".

 

Given that millions of girls are tested, given that sul'dam and damane are employed all over the Empire in various roles, it's a puzzle why some sul'dam don't trigger the A'dam on repeated testing. The sheer statistical factor makes it likely that some would trigger, even if it's a very small percentage.

 

It would be impossible to keep dark if it happened since a mass of low-level bureaucrats and district-level testers would be doing the actual grunt work, collating with census results and submitting reports, rather than it being some super-secret restricted level scheme. Thousands of people across the empire including sul'dam obviously, would know. Since it shocks them, this doesn't happen, for whatever reason.

 

Also note that the knowledge was originally there, 1000 years ago, when Deane made the first a'dam.

And given that damane live for 500-600 odd years, and that the Seanchan bureaucracy keeps records, it must be buried there somewhere in the depths of Imperial archives.

 

 

 

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

I just cam across this intriguing little item in my WH read-through.

 

From Ch20, Bethamin PoV. She has been recalling how she walked in on Renna and Seta trying to remove each other's a'dam . She muses;

Obviously Alwhin had found the collared pair of sul'dam and reported them to Suroth. And Suroth had sheltered the Empire by protecting Renna and Seta, dangerous as that was.

 

Suroth has known since tSR Ch1 that sul'dam can channel, if not before. She's a DF, which suggests that her motivation in 'protecting' R and S is to assist the DO. Certainly if the sul'dam secret became widely known, it would shake the Seanchan empire to its foundations, particularly since the Empress Fortuona (mslf) can herself channel. The DO wouldn't want that to happen!

 

Why not? He had Semirhage obliterate the empire.

[FarShainMael]

Only that part of it that stayed at Seanchan. The Rhyagelle are still a force to be reckoned with; until, that is, they suddenly fnd themselves face to face with an unpalatable truth.

 

@Sharaman: yes, they must have known, but as you say, the knowledge has been buried. Suroth was helping it to stay buried, for the DO's purposes.

 

[AuldGoldBeard]

So, while this has gone rather far afield, I thought I'd respond to the original post and offer my own prediction.

 

First 2/3 of ToM is used catching up Perrin and Mat and Elayne, with only bit appearances from Rand and Eggs.  As we begin to wrap those things up, we have a WoT Third (Semi) Annual Reunion, with Perrin and Mat getting scooped up by Rand as he prepares for the Last Battle.

 

After TGS, Rand concluded that he had failed to gain a peace with the Seanchan and had given up all chance of it happening.  Given that, I think he's unlikely to attempt to initiate new peace negotiations, even in his new and enlightened state.  The Seanchan, on the other hand, believe it's vital for Rand to serve them, and now with Traveling and (possibly) a few dom bands on hand, they have a convenient way to make that happen.

 

The theory is that they find out where Rand is, Travel there, and we play ultimate smackdown, with this being the second time Perrin needs to be there for Rand.  Ultimately, the Seanchan attempt at capturing him blows up in their face, and Tuon ends up on her knees, hence binding the NM to Rand.  Would likely be the climax of that book, and then everything's set up for TG in the last one.

[wvlr2]

I would love the see her on a leash, but do not think that it will happen.  I suppose one of the ORs is an option but I doubt that as well.  The only option that I can think of would be the Dommination Band if it backfired.