The Rand/Moridin Link (Re-Post for DMDB)

[Luckers]

The Rand/Moridin Link

 

The Third Man

 

This issue was first noticed when Lews Therin referenced a third person in Rand's head. This third man is Moridin. We learn this in KoD-18-News For the Dragon.

 

Abruptly another image was floating in his head, a man's face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyes man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the fact of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael.

 

As for how Moridin manifesting in Rand's head, Rand himself figured that out.

 

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire.

 

And indeed, we see that link form.

 

Without a thought, his free hand rose, and balefire shot upward, a bar of liquid white fire slicing across the wave sinking toward them. Dimly he was aware of another bar of pale solid fire rising from the other man's hand that was not clasping his, a bar slashing the opposite way from his. The two touched.

 

Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands. Blinking, Rand searched for Mashadar. The wave of shining mist was gone; a glow remained in the balconies above, but dimming, receding, as Rand's eyes began to clear. Even mindless Mashadar fled balefire, it seemed.

 

[aCoS-41-A Crown of Swords]

 

And it is on the next page that we first see the link active.

 

Suddenly he realized that he had not felt saidin when the man made balefire, either. Just thinking of that, of the two streams touching, made his vision double again. Just for an instant, he could see the man's face again, sharp where everything else blurred.

 

[aCoS-41-A Crown of Swords]

 

This raises the question--exactly how does the link work. It seems to have two different roles, the first being passive, and the second active.

 

The Function of the Link

 

Passive Transferal

 

The thread already lists other passive transfer--Rand seeing Moridin's face in his dreams, Lews therin listing him as a destroyer, and so on. In CoT we learn that's continued and that Rand is now getting foggy visions of Moridin's face awake...

 

He no longer feared killing Min or Elayne or Aviendha any more than he feared going mad. Madder than he already was, at least, with a dead man in his head, and sometimes a foggy face he could almost recognize

 

[CoT-24-A Strengthening Storm]

 

There are also references to the foggy or vague face in WH-22-Out of Thin Air and WH-35-With the Choedan Kal.

 

Later in the CoT-24 we see that just as with Lews Therin, knowledge and thoughts seem to be filtering through the link. In CoT we see Rand wax poetic about the Creator...

 

Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nodding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

 

[CoT-24-A Strengthening Storm]

 

Now Rand concludes that this must come from an amalgamation of his and Lews Therin's thoughts, but that's only because he knows Lews Therin didn't say it and couldn't think of who else might--and the reality is that this seems much more in tune with Moridin given his philosophical background.

 

Active Transferal

 

The passive transferal seems to just flow through whenever, but there is a second level to the link which seems to be tied in with saidin--specifically whenever Rand draws on, or releases saidin it activates the link. I'll touch more on the significance of the fact that it is only when he draws on, or releases the source later. But for now, we first witness the channeling sickness in tPoD.

 

Reluctantly he let go of the Power, forced himself not to hang on like a man clutching salvation with his fingernails as life and filth drained from him together. For an instant, he saw double; the world seemed to tilt dizzily. That was a recent problem, and he worried it might be part of the sickness that killed men who channeled, but the dizziness never lasted more than moments.

 

[tPoD-Floating Like Snow]

 

From there it continues, whenever he gathers or releases saidin. There was hot debate between whether it was the Taint or the Link which was causing this. Rand himself assumed it was the taint, and in addition to Morr that is the main reason he buckles down in Winter's Heart to cleanse it. Afterwards he is at a loss to explain whilst it is still there.

 

That did not stop nausea from rising in Rand, though, the violent urge to bend double and empty himself on the floor. The room seemed to spin for an instant, and he had to put a hand on the nearest bedpost to steady himself. He did not know why he should still feel this sickness, with the taint gone.

 

[CoT-24-A Strengthing Storm]

 

But the Winter's Heart Prologue rules this out. In it we witness the dizziness come without saidin, but with the image of Moridin.

 

“You should have picked smaller books, “ he told her, pulling on riding gloves to hide the Dragons. “Or lighter.” He turned toward the window, to fetch the leather scrip, and a wave of dizziness hit him. Knees turning to water, he stumbled. A shimmering face he could not make out flashed through his head. With an effort, he caught himself, forced his legs straight. And the whirling sensation vanished.

 

LewsTherin panted hoarsely in the shadows. Could the face be his?

 

“If you think you’ll make me carry them all that way, think again,” Min grumbled. “I’ve seen better pretending from stablehands. You could try falling down.”

 

“Not this time.” He was ready for what happened when he channeled; he could control it to some extent. Usually. Most of the time. This dizziness without saidin was new. Maybe he had just turned too fast. And maybe pigs did fly... ”

 

[WH-Prologue-Snow]

 

Now the problem here is in the question of how the link could become active without Rand seizing or releasing saidin, as is the case every other time he experiences the nausea. The likely answer is that this time it was Moridin's channeling that activated the link instead of Rand's. There is more support for that being the case, but I'll address that in a second.

 

In any case it is confirmed completely that the neusea is caused by the link. Specifically, in KoD, we see the reverse occuring--Rand activating the link, experiencing the nausea, and seeing Moridin.

 

with saidin came the inevitable violent nausea, the almost overwhelming desire to double over and empty himself of every meal he had ever eaten. His knees trembled with it. He fought that as hard as he fought the Power, and saidin had to be fought ever and always. A man forced saidin to his will, or it destroyed him. The face of the man from Shadar Logoth floated in his head for a moment. He looked furious. And near to sicking up. Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair.

 

[KoD-21-Within the Stone]

 

So drawing and releasing saidin is what facilitates the link into becoming active, and it is the link that causes the nausea. Moreover Moridin is experiencing the nausea when Rand is activating the link, and given the Winter's Heart prologue, Rand is experiencing it when Moridin does.

 

Curiously, it seems to be saidin that activates it for both men. This seems strange, one would think that it would be channeling the True Power which caused this in Moridin given that it was the TP he was channeling when the link was formed, nevertheless given that Moridin seems to be using the TP without issue, and Demandred states that he is now using it exclusively after three thousand years of using both it and saidin in mixture.

 

Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black speck floated across Moridin's blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly.[WH-13-Wonderful News]

 

So, it would appear that Saidin is the contributing factor in activating the link for Moridin as well. I have a possible explanation for this.

 

Why Saidin? And Why Does the Link Cause Nausea?

 

Firstly, on the nausea, consider the initial descriptions RJ uses to describe the formation of, and first activation of the link. "Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands." and "Just thinking of that, of the two streams touching, made his vision double again. Just for an instant, he could see the man's face again, sharp where everything else blurred."

 

In both cases the link affected his perception, which is not unreasonable given the description of the trauma Rand underwent. However consider this, as time passes Rand slowly begins to perceive an imperfect image through the link--Moridin's face--and at the same time this perception induces nausea. Note that the one time Rand does perfectly perceive Moridin he does not feel the nausea. Rand even remarks on it. "Abruptly another image was floating in his head, a man's face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness."

 

In effect the nausea is being caused by the weakness of the link. The perceptions coming to him of Moridin (or from Moridin? Or both?) are disjointed, vague and fuzzy. Worse yet it seems to be going straight into his brain before his conscious mind becomes aware of it (or can make enough sense of it) to process an image from it. It is this that I would suggest is causing the violent nausea.

 

From this point, though not entirely related to it, we can deduce that the link is growing stronger. It started with a vague jumble that his conscious mind couldn't even process, slowly stabilizing and thus putting forth an imperfect image, and then beyond that into a fully cohesive image, which when perceived does not induce the nausea, until finally in the very last activation of the link that we witness in KoD 21 Rand states "Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair."

 

So, the link has been steadily growing stronger, and based on the above quote, it is also steadily pulling Rand and Moridin's souls closer together, by which I mean that not only are perceptions passing through the link, but it is also having a very real effect on both Rand and Moridin--it is not just a string between to cans, used for passing information along. It's almost like a bungy rope, connecting, but also drawing them together.

 

But, to continue the cans and string analogy, if the link is the string, and Rand and Moridin are people listening to the cans, then what are the cans themselves? Of course Rand and Moridin might be the cans, but the fact that some of what is passing through the link seems to be going straight into Rand's subconscious before his conscious mind puts it together suggests that there is another element.

 

My suggestion would be that the link is based in the part of their souls that they use to reach out and touch saidin. Consider, channelers souls  have a natural affinity to each other in that area; a certain resonance exists between them. Like calling to like, as it were. This link seems to be attempting to do the same thing, so it makes sense that it would form in the parts of their soul that already have an attraction.

 

Furthermore, as I pointed out above, the link is activated only when reaching out to touch saidin, or in releasing it. In effect the link is only active when that 'etheric arm' (that connection or extension of the soul or whatever it is precisely that Nynaeve notices as have been cut off in Logain) is being used.

 

Also consider that there is a pre-existing a natural affinity between channelers which seems based in that 'etheric arm'. Women can sense 'the ability' in other women, and sense it as an attraction, a sense of kinship. Men's senses are more limited, but there is still a resonance between the souls of male channelers. A certain sense of like calling to like. This link seems to be slowly bringing them more in tune with each other, so it makes sense that it would form in the parts of their soul that already have an attraction.

 

These two points are my answer to the question of why this is affecting Moridin's ability to channel saidin--the link is based in (occurred in, is of, etc) the parts of their soul designed to touch saidin. Of course RJ stated a normal shield (which seems to work as a constriction of that 'etheric arm') would stop someone being able to channel the True Power, which seems to suggest that the arm is used in channeling the True Power, however it would make sense that what could keep something in can keep something out, and thus the arm may not be involved at all.

 

Or it is involved and there is still some element of this that we don't understand--maybe its all in the like calling like, and use of the arm to touch the True Power doesn't resonate enough to activate the link.

 

[Etzel]

As I understand it, Rand's & Moridin's threads in the Pattern were literally welded together at this point, when their balefire streams crossed (balefire burns the threads a bit back after all), while they also formed a link by holding their hands. It's a bit similar to the link between the threads of the three ta'veren in the Pattern, but even more integral. Since such two threads connected at one point is an abnormality in the Pattern, the Pattern tries to weave both - Rand's and Moridin's threads - completely together, so that only one thread remains again. This is IMO also meant by Min's Viewing, which she tells Rand: "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and ... one of you dies, and one doesn't."

 

I think this weaving effect is especially strong, if one channels, since it might be that the Pattern has more influence on a person who channels, because of their link to the OP (IIRC, Min's Viewings on a channeler also become suddenly dizzy, if he or she channels). This forced weaving effect of the Pattern on Rand's and Moridin's threads leads to the nausea, a bit like the Pattern is forcing the other two ta'veren to join Rand by showing the swirling color visions.

[FarShainMael]

Can I just add that there is a first indication of the onset of this nausea in LoC ch21. I mentioned it here:

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,50458.2988.html

 

See post 2994 et seq. for my thoughts on this.

 

 

[Luckers]

No, that is unrelated. The nausea Rand experiences in that scene is caused by the dichotic nature of the evils of the Taint and Shadar Logoth. This is the basis of how he cleansed saidin, but it is not related to the nausea caused by the Rand/Moridin link. And yes, we do specifically know that that later nausea is caused by the link, and can as such seperate the two incidences.

 

The link causes nausea, but not all nausea is caused by the link.

[OptimusPrime]

So, the link has been steadily growing stronger, and based on the above quote, it is also steadily pulling Rand and Moridin's souls closer together, by which I mean that not only are perceptions passing through the link, but it is also having a very real effect on both Rand and Moridin--it is not just a string between to cans, used for passing information along. It's almost like a bungy rope, connecting, but also drawing them together.

 

But, to continue the cans and string analogy, if the link is the string, and Rand and Moridin are people listening to the cans, then what are the cans themselves? Of course Rand and Moridin might be the cans, but the fact that some of what is passing through the link seems to be going straight into Rand's subconscious before his conscious mind puts it together suggests that there is another element.

 

My suggestion would be that the link is based in the part of their souls that they use to reach out and touch saidin. Consider, channelers souls  have a natural affinity to each other in that area; a certain resonance exists between them. Like calling to like, as it were. This link seems to be attempting to do the same thing, so it makes sense that it would form in the parts of their soul that already have an attraction.

 

My take on this is that the balefire incedent welded the two cans together at a small point, and as time goes on the welding gets stronger, eventually it will be one can unless something happens to rectify it.

 

I dont think the link is "based where they channel from" so to speak. What I think is that the incedent caused their threads to merge. Slowly, they are beginning to become one person, as indicated by Moridins hand flexing and Rand entering Ishamael mode. I think Rands permission to channel the True Power IS Moridins permission. Its very hard to channel it without the Dark Ones permission, and Rand definitely wasnt given permission-he inherrited it.

 

Channeling ability is soulbased. As the thread/soul merge strengthens, it encompassed the ability to channel and now it becomes confusing. Their channeling ability is included somehow in the merge, and this would create a sort of discrepency; if Rand channels, saidin might be being summoned from two places at once, which shouldnt be possible. I dont think Rand adds Moridins strengths, but there might be a possibility of Talent transferal.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Hey i have a feeling Moridin is going to turncoat on the dark one. The link works both ways and we saw that he was feeling the hand, beginning to look like Al'Thor and in the dream he was very tired, like Rand who is always pushing himself. We saw Rand with dark thoughts and feelings so its possible that Moridin is getting some positive thoughts and who knows.

I wonder what the effects of Rands epiphany on Dragonmount will do to Moridin? The dark thoughts that Rand was having then reflected Moridins feelings on the wheel and why he works for the Dark one.

[OptimusPrime]

I think Moridin is more aware of the link than Rand. I dont mean the link is any more at Moridins end, but in the dream he said "I feel tired. Is that me or you?" So Moridin obviously is aware that hes not fully the same. The fact that he is aware, I really hope, means he will stand a better chance of resisting it.

 

Now. That doesnt mean Moridin might not be roped into helping Rand, although I dont want him to. If Fain turned up near the end Id probably say Moridin would stop him from killing Rand if he could because the Shadow needs Rand, and if Fain killed him I think his soul might be corrupted in a similar fashion to Sammaels.

[Terez]

Moridin is more aware than Rand because Rand has a bad habit of shutting things out inside his own brain and blaming everything on Lews Therin.  See his comment about the Creator and such.  He blamed that on Lews Therin, then realized it couldn't be Lews Therin, and then blamed it on Lews Therin anyway.

 

I like the theory about the sickness being caused by the Fain wound, but the fact that Rand has no issues seizing saidin when he goes after Sammael speaks against it.  It's the only time he seizes saidin between the wounding and the balefire incident.  The beginnings of the sickness are somewhat muddied with the issues with the Power around Ebou Dar after the Bowl was abused to fix the weather, but it still seems most likely that the balefire incident causes it.  We don't see any evidence that Moridin shares that sickness until Knife of Dreams, though, and for all we know, he might only experience it through the link.

[Scaw]

I think this is a sound theory.

 

I would like to add some points:

 

a) I agree with Drekka, this link sheds a new light on Rand being able to seize the TP. Maybe it was only possible because of the link (I previously thought more along the lines that the DO wants to set up Rand to be Nae'blis or something like that).

 

b) The same goes for "dark Rand", his dark moods might be caused in part by the link and its growing strength. It should be interesting to see what happens to the link after "Veins of Gold"

 

c) Moridin relying (exclusively?) on the TP is actually an indication that this link is there and that it is also both ways. Because saidin causes a dizziness for Moridin, he prefers the TP and this is also why we (almost) never see the dizziness caused by Moridin, because he does not use saidin.

 

 

I also think this theory is very promising because it allows for a new light on a prophecy related to the Last Battle (I don't know how new this is):

 

TGS,Ch48 "He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one."

 

"the three" are often thought to be Mat, Perrin & Rand or Rand linking callandor with two women. But that never sounded right to me.

Mat, Rand, Perrin need to be present at the LB and they need to help each other, but do they need to be "one"? (also see Mins fireflies, they do not suggest being one, merely being together).

Now Rand being linked with two women is somewhat more likely. But note again, being linked is not the same as being 'one'.

 

It is much more likely that the three who are already linked (Rand, LTT, Moridin) shall be one. Rand and LTT are basically already one and it is likely that Moridin will be present at the LB and face Rand so they will join somehow.

[aunt_pol]

OK, now I reeeeally want to see a Moridin (post VoG) PoV in TofM.

 

Also, what does this link mean, if Moridin were to be stilled? How would that affect Rand?

[Luckers]

It's possible it could sever the link--and that may be just as detrimental as a warder bond being severed, if not worse. (<conjecture)

[aunt_pol]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking...

[PatsNats28]

A related question: Does this mean that Rand took control of the True Power through Moridin? And more importantly, did Moridin allow him to do it (because he was mad at Semirhage for disobeying orders) or was it out of his control?

[Luckers]

A related question: Does this mean that Rand took control of the True Power through Moridin? And more importantly, did Moridin allow him to do it (because he was mad at Semirhage for disobeying orders) or was it out of his control?

 

Yeah, the link was the avenue--but beyond that we don't know what happened there.

[aunt_pol]

FWIW, I think I was right about this one, back in the lovely weeks directly after TGS came out.

 

The DO wants to turn the Dragon. Not kill him, else he'd be toast long since.

The DO wants to turn him, and surely if the TP is as addictive as (one of?) the Forsaken think, then the DO was probably throwing a party when Rand fired it up.

 

Above all people, Rand would be permitted to use the TP.

 

 

[Scaw]

A related question: Does this mean that Rand took control of the True Power through Moridin? And more importantly, did Moridin allow him to do it (because he was mad at Semirhage for disobeying orders) or was it out of his control?

 

Yeah, the link was the avenue--but beyond that we don't know what happened there.

Why is the link the avenue?

 

I think it should be the avenue because the DO probably cannot grant someone the TP just like that, they probably have to travel to SG and be close to the source. Otherwise it would bear the question why the DO does not offer every channeler the opportunity to use the TP and in that way cause alot of chaos and mayhem.

 

It can be assumed Rand would not ravel to SG and ask for the TP. So the link between him and Moridin is actually a very good access for the DO to Rand.

 

Which leads me to the question: how did this balefire incident play out? Can one maybe assume that Moridin did this intentionally or under the order of the DO?

How much planning is really involved here? How big a piece is the link in the plans of the DO (if he has plans)?

 

 

Was it Moridin or the DO who allowed Rand drawing on the TP?

 

1. I think it is unlikely that Moridin has so much control over the link. If he does, why does he allow Rand to see him through the link? It would be to his advantage if he could influence Rand from afar without Rand suspecting anything.

2. As far as I know the TP comes directly from the DO and he decides who wields it (the TP and the DO may be the very same thing, the TP being the essence of the DO).

 

Which brings me to another question: where does this information on the TP come from? Is it reliable?

[navahgar]

I'm not sure whether this is completely on point for this thread, but I was reluctant to start a new thread when there are many correlations.  Let me start at the beginning, and hopefully tie it into this thread at the end.

 

I know, from my various perusings on this messageboard, that there has been some debate as to the relationship between the One Power (OP) and the True Power (TP).  I think there was some heated deabte as to the relative strength of each source of power.  This is my take:  The OP flows from, and in a sense is, the Creator.  Being the source, and embodiment, of the OP, the Creator decided to bifurcate the power into saidar and saidin (perhaps as a necessary part of its bifurcation of humanity into male and female).  Furthermore, the Creator decided to limit the access of people to the OP through limiting a soul's affinity for the OP.  A previous poster mentioned some interaction between body and soul for this limiting factor, and I think that that makes sense.  That is why certain people are stronger or weaker in the OP.  The strength of the OP remains the same, but the individual person can only access some finite portion of it.  In this paradigm, angreal and sa'angreal are man-made devices that somehow circumvent this limit (perhaps nefariously, although that thought is for another post) to allow the person to channel more of the OP.  Furthermore, perhaps as a consequence of some sacrifice necessary for the banishment of Shaitan from the world, the Creator's influence is in the initial structure of the Wheel and reality.  In other words, he is a Deist deity, a clockmaker that set the parameters of the world (and perhaps is those parameters), but no longer has an interventive influence on reality.  This is the structure of the OP because this is the structure that the Creator decided upon (and was perhaps forced upon due to the equal and opposite force of Shaitan).

 

In exactly the same way that the OP flows from, and is, the Creator, the TP flows from, and is, Shaitan.  Because the TP is Shaitan, Shaitan decides how it is manifested in reality.  Instead of the taoist balance that the Creator endowed upon the OP, Shaitan adopts a more direct, all-or-nothing approach.  When it decides to grant access to the TP, it effectively grants near-complete access.  Therefore, a person with access to the TP, can perhaps match the strength of a person using the Choedan Kal.  Maybe the increased addictiveness of the TP is due to this direct access to all of its power as opposed to the diluted access to the OP.  However, being by its own nature a jealous god, Shaitan does not freely grant access to the TP.  This raises the question of why Shaitan can actively intervene in the world whilst the Creator cannot.  Briefly, my take on that is that it couldn't, because it was locked away from the world by the Creator, but now that that prison has been damaged, Shaitan is able to affect reality.  Keep in mind that I am suggesting that the Creator is reality, and that is why it no longer exists in an otherworldly form.

 

Now we get to the Dragon/Moridin link.  I agree that the crossing of the balefires somehow worked to connect the souls of the Dragon and Moridin.  When these two souls became connected, Shaitan's granting of access to the TP to one, necessariy extended to the other.  That is why Rand is able to draw upon the TP.  Shaitan can not stop his access to the TP without stopping Moridin's.  You might ask at this point why the reverse is not true.  Why are Rand and Moridin's access to the OP not affected by the connection of souls.  Well in fact, in a way they are.  Maybe this is the cause of the nausea.  However, since the OP's structure was very carefully and completely prescribed by the Creator, there is less subversion of it by this connection of souls.

 

This then brings me to that prophecy of the three becoming one.  One thought is that the three are Rand, Lews Therin (LTT) and Moridin.  It could be that there was an earlier merger of souls, perhaps precipitated by LTT's dramatic self-immolation.  This merger has been occurring slowly over the course of the series.  I leave it to others to speculate (indeed I think this has been very thoroughly discussed) as to how and why this is happening.  In this case, Moridin is the third.  Importantly, this prophecy would appear to indicate that now the three have become one.  This must mean that Moridin is no longer.  If this is true then we will find a soulless body that used to be Moridin.  Perhaps this is good for Shaitan because he can now inhabit this body (a Shaidar Haran 2.0) and this be free of Shayol Ghul.  I don't know.  Another thought is that Rand and LTT have always been the same.  In this case, if the prophecy refers to Rand and Moridin, there must be a third.  What could that third be?  Artur Hawkwing?  Is this why Rand remembers the sword?  I think this is very far fetched, but if the prophecy is applicable, a third must be found.  Of course the three might refer to something else entirely.

[Scaw]

Importantly, this prophecy would appear to indicate that now the three have become one.  This must mean that Moridin is no longer.  If this is true then we will find a soulless body that used to be Moridin.

I'm not sure I understand you here: are you implying that Moridin is right now (at the end of book 12) a "soulless body"?

How do you come to that conclusion? When exactly did this happen in your opinion? When Rand drew on the TP? How come, although we had Rands PoV several times, he did not notice anything of this? Why is there no third voice in his head now?

 

As far as I know, we have no indication that Moridin and Rand merged yet.

As I wrote above I personally think this "three shall be one" is something that still needs to be played out (most likely at the LB).

 

 

When these two souls became connected, Shaitan's granting of access to the TP to one, necessariy extended to the other.  That is why Rand is able to draw upon the TP.  Shaitan can not stop his access to the TP without stopping Moridin's.

You assume, the link is of a nature that does not allow the DO to differentiate between Rand and Moridin, because they are in effect the same person.

I do not think they are the same and I also think it was the DO who granted Rand that access on purpose, Semirhage certainly thought so ('why did you betray me dark lord?').

 

The DO has obviously bigger plans with Rand. Killing Rand has been called off limits for the forsaken. They are supposed to cause him pain and kill his supporters, but not him.

The whole incident with the male a'dam has the strong smell of a set up, a set up with the intention to push Rand into a situation where the only thing he can do is seize the TP. It is highly unlikely that Rand would have tried this in any other situation, him having the access key and all.

 

This would also be a classical theme: the ultimate evil (the DO) tries to corrupt the hero (Rand), who is tempted, but able to hold back at the last moment.

If the hero was never tempted to switch sides, the story would be much less interesting.

[navahgar]

I'm not sure I understand you here: are you implying that Moridin is right now (at the end of book 12) a "soulless body"?

 

Yes, that is what I'm implying.  Or at least that's a possibility that I think is plausible.  The whole "He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one" theme leads us strongly to believe that the blade of light is the one created by the choedan kal during veins of gold.  Unless there is a significant time lapse between the 'holding' and the 'be'ing in that prophecy, which I would find cumbersome, then 'the three shall be one' has to happen during, or soon after veins of gold.  So I think that one possibility is that Moridin is no longer a separate entity.

 

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

As I mentioned above, and in the other post, I come to that conclusion based the apparent merging of souls after the balefire incident, and the prophecy of three becoming one.

 

When exactly did this happen in your opinion? When Rand drew on the TP?

 

This happened right after, or maybe during, the veins of gold scene where he turns saidin in on itself through the choedan kal.

 

How come, although we had Rands PoV several times, he did not notice anything of this? Why is there no third voice in his head now?

 

I'm not sure about this one.  Maybe because the first merging (LTT and Rand) happened through saidin (the creation of dragonmount), whereas the second merging (Rand and Moridin) happened through TP-OP balefire reaction, there is a difference in the nature of the mergings.  Also, we witnessed the first merging over the course of many books, whereas the second happened in a shorter time.  As someone else said on some post, we might actually have heard Moridin in Rand's head, because he is making more philosophical comments on the nature of the creator, and there is that specific scene (don't remember when) in which he thinks that LTT might have initiated the thought, but then notices LTT agreeing.  Maybe with one voice in his head already, Rand doesn't think to differentiate between a new source.  I grant you that this is a bit of a weak point in my argument, but the fact remains that there do appear to be two seperate mergings going on in the story before we get to veins of gold.

 

One last note.  I don't actually think that this is what is happening, because I don't think that LTT and Rand are seperate.  However, based on the prophecy I'm just trying to think of ways in which the three can have become one after veins of gold, and frankly this seems a plausible way to me.  It also has the advantage of creating a powerful new embodiment for the dark lord in time for tarmon gaidon.

 

[Jong]

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one" Why do you think the blade of light refers to VOG? Why do you think the three are Rand, LTT, and  Moridin?

 

I sort of figured the obvious interpretation is that Rand grabs the source through callandor, the blade lights up, and then he links with his two female associates. The 3 become one.

[Dagon Thyne]

I always assumed that Rand and Moridin were linked in the pattern the same way Brigitte and her lover. 

[Duskfire]

The prophecy at the end of TGS also possibly implies its Rand, Moridin and Lews Therin.

 

At the end of time,

when the many become one.

The last storm shall gather its angry winds

to destroy a land already dying.

And at its center,

the blind man shall stand

upon his own grave.

There he shall see again,

and weep for what has been wrought

 

The many become one is very similiar to the three shall be one, far too similar since both examples happen in the same book. Then you have the ray of light from the sunlight that could be seen as a blade of light.

 

I dont know whether I believe it, but I can see why some people think that it may be the case.

[OptimusPrime]

I wonder if Callandor can manipulate the Ta'veren affect and it refers to Rand, Mat and Perrins Ta'verenism stacking.

[imBored]

The prophecy at the end of TGS also possibly implies its Rand, Moridin and Lews Therin.

 

At the end of time,

when the many become one.

The last storm shall gather its angry winds

to destroy a land already dying.

And at its center,

the blind man shall stand

upon his own grave.

There he shall see again,

and weep for what has been wrought

 

The many become one is very similiar to the three shall be one, far too similar since both examples happen in the same book. Then you have the ray of light from the sunlight that could be seen as a blade of light.

 

I dont know whether I believe it, but I can see why some people think that it may be the case.

 

I think the many becoming one is referring to when rand remembers all his past lives.

 

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

 

In the prophecy, it is speaking of when Rand was on Dragonmount and if Rand and Moridin "become one" it will likely be at a later date.

[Thor]

he still needs to get blinded anyways, so a long way to go.