[poll] who would you slap

[joeybsmash]

eliada needs to have her skin cut off and then be soaked in vinegar. then she needs to watch as trollacs eat "parts" of her body.

[Genesis_XVI]

I'd slap EGWENE... with a brick. The arrogant cow needs it. Then every other Aes Sedai... with a brick, 'cause they need it too.

 

-Genesis_XVI

 

:D

[Musenge]

Most of the characters people seem to dislike are kinda young so I excuse them on that basis really. No point expecting teenagers to behave like adults. So if Egwene is stuck up and Faile is overjealous then remember their ages and the stuff they've been through.

Egwene is trying to pull together women 100s of years old who see her as a kid. She can't be anything but big headed at the moment or she would have no chance.

[Ord]

I'd start off by slapping Elida, then I would go and slap all the other Aes Sedai. Then I would Balefire the white tower keeping only a handful of Aes Sedai alive to help in the final battle.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Musenge: Most of the characters people seem to dislike are kinda young so I excuse them on that basis really. No point expecting teenagers to behave like adults. So if Egwene is stuck up and Faile is overjealous then remember their ages and the stuff they've been through.

Egwene is trying to pull together women 100s of years old who see her as a kid. She can't be anything but big headed at the moment or she would have no chance.

 

I disagree that Egwene needed to be big headed to have any chance of pulling the Aes Sedai together. She knew why they chose her but instead of trying to earn their respect by proving that, though made for the wrong reasons, she was still the right choice, she figured she could get it simply by making demands. Not to mention the virtual spitting on of 3000 years of Aes Sedai by her raising Nynaeve (who still could not even Channel at will) and Elayne by proclamation. Her first actions reinforced the impression that she was an over pampered child. She finally got it right in Knife of Dreams when she started working to earn respect by setting examples for others to follow.

[Musenge]

I don't think she survived simply by making demands. She started manipulating the hall by sending out sisters to influence other sisters and repeat opinions she wanted strengthened. I think she was clever. If she wasn't big headed (confident) they would have played her in that puppet role and all failed by now.

 

As far as slapping Egwene goes... I think she is taking quite enough physical punishment at the moment! Three or four beatings with a belt every day? woah...

 

Also Galina now has to live her life as Therava's toy, possibly a few 100 years to go, Liandrin ditto in Seanchan which is in chaos, Elaida is a drunk on the edge who is going to get her comeuppance in the next book. She's not that bad anyway. She could have and by law should have executed Egwene but she didn't want to.

 

A lot of the people we want slapped seem to be getting their fair share of punishment anyway.

 

Faile was just kidnapped and made a servant for fifty something days and under the threat of rape too.

 

How many friends has Elayne just lost? In a week or so

 

I think RJ is making them suffer enough.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Bigheaded = confident? Not in any normal usage of the term. Bigheaded = arrogant and conceited.

 

Addition:

How many friends has Elayne just lost? In a week or so

She was responsible for most of them and she doesn't seem to upset by it. If, after she was rescued from the Black Sisters she had shown some remorse for her stupidity of the night before, I wouldn't have been so ticked off. Instead she just shrugs it off with a comment about how she knew she wasn't in any real danger because of Min's vision. It showed a true disregard for the lives of those who died to keep her safe.

[Musenge]

I'm saying people THINK Egwene is bigheaded but she is just confident. Everybody wants her to bow down and comply so her resisting and being herself is seen as big headed.

 

Elayne can't possibly be responsible for the deaths around her! Arymilla is for the soldiers and Rahvin and the BA who set that up. She is the one who insisted kin never be alone yet they still did anyway. Reane Corly wasn't Elaynes fault. Nor was Vandene or Sareitha. What did you expect them to do with two (as they thought) BA who already murdered some of them living just down the road? Go to sleep?

 

I don't like Elayne myself, never have but you can't blame the deaths on her. It's unfair.

[Guest Estel]

Rand 'cuz he's being stupid

[Guest cwestervelt]

Musenge: I'm saying people THINK Egwene is bigheaded but she is just confident. Everybody wants her to bow down and comply so her resisting and being herself is seen as big headed.

 

Elayne can't possibly be responsible for the deaths around her! Arymilla is for the soldiers and Rahvin and the BA who set that up. She is the one who insisted kin never be alone yet they still did anyway. Reane Corly wasn't Elaynes fault. Nor was Vandene or Sareitha. What did you expect them to do with two (as they thought) BA who already murdered some of them living just down the road? Go to sleep?

 

I don't like Elayne myself, never have but you can't blame the deaths on her. It's unfair.

 

Vandene, Sareitha and their Warder's would probably still be alive if Elayne had not insisted her way was the only way to handle the Black Sisters staying in Caemlyn. So that is 4 deaths she is directly responsible for. In addition to that, her plan backfired so badly that she was taken captive. Another "five or six hundred dead, though, perhaps a few more. Twice as many wounded one way and another." Split the difference and you still have another 550 who died because her way was the only way. Vandene was the only person not opposed to the plan, and she didn't care if she survived so long as she killed her sister's murderer first.

[Jonn]

Vandene, Sareitha and their Warder's would probably still be alive if Elayne had not insisted her way was the only way to handle the Black Sisters staying in Caemlyn. So that is 4 deaths she is directly responsible for. In addition to that, her plan backfired so badly that she was taken captive. Another "five or six hundred dead, though, perhaps a few more. Twice as many wounded one way and another." Split the difference and you still have another 550 who died because her way was the only way. Vandene was the only person not opposed to the plan, and she didn't care if she survived so long as she killed her sister's murderer first.

 

Yet, her decision lead to her forces being able to pincer Arymilla's attack and break the stalemate that had been going on up until then.

You have to credit her with taking a risk when most would stay in their respective safety until someone else forced the issue.

 

Her plan was to overpower the Black Ajah sisters they knew of (which there only should have been two) and to trap the third in their ranks, forcing her to come out. You can't say her intelligence was totally bad. Hark did find the Black Ajah's safe house and he did uncover Mellar. Give the Black Ajah sisters some credit as well. They set a fine trap themselves.

Careane was Black Ajah, and if Elayne had not acted quickly enough the Black Sisters would know that morning that Elayne had uncovered them. They would have taken off before a single Guardsman could surround the safehouse. Given the information she was and the situation she was in with an unknown traitor amongst the Aes Sedai, her ploy was tactically, not incorrect. It is always the unknown that gets you.

I think her mistake was to not go in with the warders close by. They would have been able to buy some time when things went wrong, or they might have detected the presence of the hidden Black Sisters in time for them to pull out and regroup.

 

Even so, chances are that things would have gotten messy, and it might have cost them all their lives.

 

As it turned out, Vandene got her revenge, Careane got her comeuppance. The only true loser was Sareitha and her warder.

 

The men and women who were killed charging the Black Ajah later on would have been ready to lose their lives in any case, just defending the walls of Caemlyn. They're soldiers, so dying is an expected risk. They managed to recapture Elayne and some of the most dangerous murderers around (the Black Ajah). They turned the tide against Arymilla and won Elayne the throne in the end, so the losses, though sad, have turned out to be a tactical success.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Yet, her decision lead to her forces being able to pincer Arymilla's attack and break the stalemate that had been going on up until then.

You have to credit her with taking a risk when most would stay in their respective safety until someone else forced the issue.

 

...

 

The men and women who were killed charging the Black Ajah later on would have been ready to lose their lives in any case, just defending the walls of Caemlyn. They're soldiers, so dying is an expected risk. They managed to recapture Elayne and some of the most dangerous murderers around (the Black Ajah). They turned the tide against Arymilla and won Elayne the throne in the end, so the losses, though sad, have turned out to be a tactical success.

 

That implies Elayne had foreknowledge that she was going to end up outside the walls and thus able to do a pincer manouver on Amaryla's forces. She didn't. I can not accept a "all things turned out well" ending as justification. Neither can I credit her with taking a risk when others wouldn't. She wasn't simply taking a risk, she was jeopardizing the safety of hundreds and thousands of people for her personal vanity. She refused to accept advice from anyone, including her Warder, and she never considered the price that others would have to pay for her actions. That failure, even after her rescue, is what is totally inexcusable.

 

Yes, being a soldier means that you are willing to accept the risk of death. The people giving the orders have a responsibility to make sure that risk is reduced as much as possible. Elayne does not do that. Instead, she regularly increases the risk. On top of that, many of the those that were involved in rescuing Elayne were not soldiers. They were levies supplied by her liegemen. Common people that were given a sword and the barest of training. Not people who are anticipating lightning and balefire.

 

Edit:

One more thing. The capture of the Black Sisters resulted in the deaths of greater than 500 people dying. That is over 500 more than the sisters had murdered between them. Not a fair trade off.

[Jonn]

That implies Elayne had foreknowledge that she was going to end up outside the walls and thus able to do a pincer manouver on Amaryla's forces. She didn't. I can not accept a "all things turned out well" ending as justification. Neither can I credit her with taking a risk when others wouldn't. She wasn't simply taking a risk, she was jeopardizing the safety of hundreds and thousands of people for her personal vanity. She refused to accept advice from anyone, including her Warder, and she never considered the price that others would have to pay for her actions. That failure, even after her rescue, is what is totally inexcusable.

 

Yes, being a soldier means that you are willing to accept the risk of death. The people giving the orders have a responsibility to make sure that risk is reduced as much as possible. Elayne does not do that. Instead, she regularly increases the risk. On top of that, many of the those that were involved in rescuing Elayne were not soldiers. They were levies supplied by her liegemen. Common people that were given a sword and the barest of training. Not people who are anticipating lightning and balefire.

 

Edit:

One more thing. The capture of the Black Sisters resulted in the deaths of greater than 500 people dying. That is over 500 more than the sisters had murdered between them. Not a fair trade off.

 

In return they get their sovreign back and all of their hopes of their well-being as well. They have put their chips in with Trakand and losing her would be not too far from a slow death. Their Houses are made secure and so is their country. 500 lives for a chance for their families and people? Call me pragmatic, but there are pawns and then there's a king. If I lose all of my pawns to keep my king secure, I'll do it.

 

You seem to think these leigemen and women are all hopeless and ignorant in this case. They swore to their respective Houses and they understand things like duty, I imagine. Besides, Birgitte took mostly cavalry through the gate to pursue the Black Ajah. Cavalry are generally better trained and have a better ranking than a serf with a pike or pitchfork in hand. Regardless of whether they knew how to fight or not, they charged right into Balefire without even flinching. No one broke. They turned on a second's notice at the order of their leader and attacked a force twice their number and defeated them. Helpless, they are not. Bravery, is the applicable word for that.

 

I do not mean to imply that Elayne knew everything was going to be well. I was saying that you have to give her credit for being aggressive. I didn't say she was flawless in her decision making either. I do think that given her options, she was aggressive, and though the outcome came at a price, it did in fact come out well for her. She didn't know she would come out at Arymilla's flank, no, but she did recognize almost immediately, where she was and she acted without hesitation. That aggressiveness and adaptiveness lead to her victory. You have to give her credit there. I'm sorry if that is painful for you, but you just have to.

 

The position she was in was not at all secure. Luan and the other party of nobles was arriving. She was outnumbered and the bulk of her faithful forces were either stuck somewhere or afraid to be confronted by much larger forces. She knew that the gates were due at any time to be betrayed. she had a Black Ajah Aes Sedai murdering people in her palace, and the news had just come in from Hark that he found where the rest were hiding in the city. Careane would have found out within hours and would have notified the Black Sisters by the morning. Everything was teetering towards the edge anyhow, so she took a gamble. Her decision to leave the warders behind as they went into the house, although bad in the short term, in the long term, actually saved Caemlyn.

 

With Luan and the rest coming with their forces, she acted first in the interests of the larger picture. She first went against the Black Ajah. What does that imply? Common sense says that she does what she can to secure herself in Caemlyn, but no, instead she is focused on doing what she thinks is right for everyone and that is to take out the Black Ajah at any cost. Tell me, who else is there with the strength to fight the Black Ajah? She is on her own and even with Aes Sedai, she knows that one of them will betray her. Aviendha had left. She only had herself to deal with the problem and rather than wait on it, she went ahead and acted on it.

 

Let me also say that she didn't so so with the express purpose of getting two Aes Sedai, their warders and 500+ soldiers killed. She, in fact, tried to handle it on her own. Now think about it...is it selfish to risk yourself to take out an evil power? It may be foolish, but it isn't selfish and neither is it vain.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Elayne's duty is to Andor, not the White Tower. If she wants to be Queen of Andor, then it is her duty to put Andor first. Anything else is a passive subjegation of Andor to the White Tower.

 

It is not selfish to take the risk of a dangerous situation on yourself. However, that isn't what she did as she never gave Sareitha any choice or option. Her refusal to even listen to the advise and suggestions of anyone else was just plain arrogance. Good rulers listen to their advisors.

 

I'm not saying that Elayne set out to get 500 people killed. I'm saying that her foolishness and pride resulted in getting 500 people killed. You want to excuse her because she inadvertantly broke the seige of Caemlyn. I refuse to excuse her because she never considers the consequences of her actions. Instead, she just makes comments on how she knows she won't die because Min told her her babies would be born healthy. She uses the knowledge that she won't get killed to give herself license to do whatever she pleases. She doesn't spend any time thinking about how her reactions endanger others. Until she learns that there are consequences to her actions, she is unfit for leadership.

[Jonn]

Elayne's duty is to Andor, not the White Tower. If she wants to be Queen of Andor, then it is her duty to put Andor first. Anything else is a passive subjegation of Andor to the White Tower.

 

What would please you more? She could put Andor above all and that really is just an extension of what she personally thinks she's entitled to.

 

Or she can do as she had done, working with a limited timeline, make her move on the Black Ajah, the people who have committed dozens of murders all over the world, including not only Tar Valon, but Andor as well...If she had not made her move, they would have been left to plan against her or leave and go, Light knows where to commit more murders. All of it because Elayne hesitated.

 

Careane was the mole and she would have tipped off the Black Ajah sisters, and probably continued to murder Kinswomen until she could work out a way to capture or kill Elayne by herself, probably with the help of the other Black Ajah sisters. Hark's revelation forced the action. Arymilla was knocking on the door and Luan was said to be on his way and close.

 

Elayne really had no time to deal with the Black Ajah except for right then.

 

So, what should she do?

 

Leave them be in her capital city? Let one of them plot within the walls of her palace? Let Mellar arrange his men as he pleases, or lock him up, also tipping off the Black Ajah...What should she do?

 

It is not selfish to take the risk of a dangerous situation on yourself. However, that isn't what she did as she never gave Sareitha any choice or option. Her refusal to even listen to the advise and suggestions of anyone else was just plain arrogance. Good rulers listen to their advisors.

 

Good rulers also know that they must make hard decisions based on their instincts. Would you have a leader unwilling to make a decision on their own? One that must rely on advisors at every turn? Some advisors can be self-serving, but even the best can be over-cautious and over-protective of those they serve. Not always unjustifiably, but a leader has to beware of basing their decisions solely on advice.

 

Elayne shared the danger as much as any of those women did. She did learn a valuable lesson though. Just because Min said her babes would be born, doesn't mean she can't be harmed in some way or that her actions will be harmless to those around her. However, she hasn't backed away from having to make decisions that may risk the lives of those who serve her intents. A chess player is never afraid to lose a piece if they are playing to win.

 

Sareitha was Aes Sedai. She went in knowing that they would be facing Black Ajah, knowing that she might die. Sareitha wasn't helpless, however tragic her death was. She died as Aes Sedai facing the Shadow. Any Aes Sedai not willing to do the same is a disgrace only outdone by the disgrace of being a Black Ajah traitor.

 

I'm not saying that Elayne set out to get 500 people killed. I'm saying that her foolishness and pride resulted in getting 500 people killed. You want to excuse her because she inadvertantly broke the siege of Caemlyn. I refuse to excuse her because she never considers the consequences of her actions. Instead, she just makes comments on how she knows she won't die because Min told her her babies would be born healthy. She uses the knowledge that she won't get killed to give herself license to do whatever she pleases. She doesn't spend any time thinking about how her reactions endanger others. Until she learns that there are consequences to her actions, she is unfit for leadership.

 

Don't believe for a second that she didn't learn a lesson from those people dying around her, for her. She had doubts. Look at her comments and her POV in those chapters. When Sareitha and Vandene and their warders died and the tallies were counted after facing the Black Ajah, she felt a deep sadness, but didn't have time to dwell on it. She had to move on. When Luan and the other nobles were about to come in she turned to Dyelin and asked her if she would not rather be Queen in her stead, because she felt that she may have blundered too much, and had doubts. Dyelin pledged herself to Elayne in response.

 

I was always told that to interpret what a character was like in literature, you had to go by how they are regarded by the other characters in the book. Dyelin approved of Elayne's fitness to rule. Birgitte, would die for the woman....Rand loves her. Aviendha, my favorite besides Moiraine, can barely stand to part with her.

 

I think her faults and foibles, again, make her human. They make her real, not just some hottie for Rand to mate with. has she made bad decisions? Yup. Can she be forgiven? I think so. She did these things in the heart of what she thought was right. It takes strength to do that, make a mistake and to keep going, keep flowing with the blows. Her blunder at the Black Ajah headquarters didn't stop her from picking up and triumphing at the Gates of Caemlyn. Real heroes do that. They pick up and go on when they falter. They try to make things right after they go wrong. They don't spend too much time hanging their head, and distracting themselves from what they need to be doing to recover.

 

In the end, she did alright, and that should count for something.

[n00l3y]

Oh man, I feel like slapping SO many people. If I had enough hands I would slap Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne and Cadsuane first. Then the other Aes Sedai. Then Perrin and Faile for being wool-headed since Dragon Reborn. Then the Kin + Mistress Anan for being so evil to about everybody.

 

Now don't get me wrong, some of the female characters are cool (like Tuon, for instance), but those irritating women need to be spanked real hard! Oh, then there are irritating men. Rand is to be slapped, but he's generally fine cause he has a far harder life than anyone else. Lan was fine until his life was ruined by Nynaeve. Galad and Gawyn are idiots, but the latter is worse due to his excessive assumptions.

 

Don't you just love these characters...

[MsDanya]

I wanna slap Rand.. jsut because.. he's a dumba** and Perrin for being so incredably boring..

[Lews Therin Telamon]

If i was Rand i would have slapped Cadsuane when she first turned up. It bugs me how all the famous Aes Sedai arent affected as much by the Ta'Veren twist...Cadsuane, Moiraine, you know what I mean. Moiraine came round and i liked her when she started doing what Rand wanted.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

And i dont think taim should be slapped at all, i enjoy hearing about him turning the Ashaman into his own weapon. And now hes going to start working on Egwenes Aes Sedai...Mwa ha ha haaaa

[I Love Semirhage]

Only Elayne I think, most of the other major characters have had their moments. But the only time I remember liking Elayne was when she first met Rand in TEOTW.

 

Also, all the Aes Sedai who express disgust/fear at the Ash'aman, we can all clearly see how much better the Ash'aman are! (Can you imagine "Aes Sedai, kill!"?)

 

ILS

[Guest cwestervelt]

Ashaman, kill. How about Ashaman, heel. Taim sounded like he was issuing orders to a trained dog.

[I Love Semirhage]

Yep, that's one of the reasons it worked so well, can you imagine having a dog that kills on command?

 

ILS

[Marrow Rahien]

My hands would fall off before I'd gotten in just one "snap out of it" slap in on all the various members of the Forces of Light.

[Groningen]

I agree most with Zardi and Edman. *Slap* Casuane and for good measure *slap* Egwene. The first for being arrogant and bitchy to Rand (not to mention being annoying). Egwene should heve been slapped more often by Nyneve. So to correct that the second slap. She used to bne nice but how she treates everybody now...

[Guest cwestervelt]

Cadsuane has not been arrogant and bitchy to Rand, she has been teaching him to grow up and act his age. To be blunt, Rand often acts exceedingly childish. A spoiled child at that considering he thinks temper tantrums will get him what he wants. Cadsuane has done nothing more than treat him like a child when he does that. Just because that is most of the time doesn't make her bitchy, just "the stern aunt."