Lord of Chaos

[Bidne Gaidin]

Ok, maybe I have totally missed a point in the story, but I cant figure out the meaning of the Lord of Chaos.

In the ending of book 11, Logain says: Remember the old saying; let the lord of chaos rule, or something like that.

 

Can someone please explain me the meaning?

 

thanks

[JRyan]

It's a reference used by the forsaken (possibly Demandred it's been a while since I read that far back) and basically what Taim is saying (as I see it) is he's on the DO's side. Definitely. For me he might still have his whole little agenda going but Taim and the 'special students' in the Black Tower are initiates of the Dark One.

 

Jeff

[Guest cwestervelt]

Not another witch hunt...

 

Read it as "Let Chaos Reign" and you should get a good idea of what is meant.

 

From the BWB (The Wheel of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, page 290)

The Feast of Fools

Celebrated in Tammaz (in Arad Doman and the Borderlands) or Saven (everywhere else), the exact day varying according to locality. A day in which all order is deliberately inverted; the high perform low tasks (running errands, serving at table, etc.) while the low do no work and give orders to their usual superiors. In many villages and towns the most foolish person is given a title such as Lord/Lady of Unreason/Misrule/Chaos or King/Queen of Fools. Not an honor sought, but for that one day everyone has to obey whatever orders, however foolish, are given by the chosen one. (Called the Festival of Unreason in Saldaea; the Festival of Fools in Kandor; Foolday in Baerlon and the Two Rivers.) Note: In Tear, Illian, and the souther half of Altara, the time between the Feast of Abram and the Feast of Fools is considered the most propitious for a wedding.

 

As seen by the quoted passage, it isn't just a phrase used by the Foresaken and their underlings. It has its basis in a 3rd Age holiday. Therefore, it is a phrase familiar to at least part of the general populace. People who aren't convinced of Taim's "blackness" should be able to see the double entendre when Taim uses the phrase. He is the victim of his own attempt at being witty. He is "leading" his faction solely because he is the biggest fool. His "underlings" can cause all the trouble they want and everyone will blaim Taim. That is why they thought his use of the phrase so hilarious. Taim is unable to comprehend the real joke.

[padainfain]

I wonder if Cenn Buie wins foolday everytime in two rivers?

[Guest cwestervelt]

I would say the honor goes to either a Coplin or a Congar. Their fools enough to actually believe it is an honor.

[padainfain]

hahaha, this is true, funny if they're the smartest one's in the village they just put up a stupid / inbred front for gossiping / personal amusement. So they can hear the wispers and rumours about their families and have a jolly good chuckle.

[Bidne Gaidin]

Thanks guys :D

[Rylliar]

To go back to the original question, I get the feeling that the Dark One is always striving for chaos, just as the Creator (or his minions) seems to be striving for order, and cooperation between humans. In my mind, the Dark One's goal is something that none of his minions really expect...they know that he wants the breaking of the Wheel, but I'm not sure they really conceive of what that would mean. They see it as a way to carve out a world/universe in their image, something they can shape to their desires. I get the feeling, however, that breaking the Wheel would mean the breaking of EVERYTHING, the unmaking of order. Chaos feeds the Dark One's purpose/existence.

 

If you want to correlate it to historical/mythological sources (which seem to be the basis for most of RJ's entire story), refer to most creation myths. In general, the "beginning" in most creation myths is a father god/goddess creating order out of Chaos (sometimes embodied by another god/goddess, although not always). Chaos and Law are often portrayed as two oppposing, titanic forces that dominate the universe and humanity. I really see this theme in the Wheel of Time universe, and feel that the Dark One is the embodiment of Chaos, and strives to disrupt creation. While manipulating the Pattern to cause ripples and odd "designs" serves his purpose in the short term, his ultimate goal is more broad. By saying "Let the Lord of Chaos rule", he is saying let the Dragon, a ta'veren by his very nature, do his thing. As ta'veren, the Dragon has the ability to bend chance and increase Chaos, and his efforts to unite people are easily disrupted by already existing forces (current hierarchies within each nation, nobles being nobles, etc.). In addition, all the forces of Dark really need to do is push people a little bit towards something contrary to Dragon's will, and then do the same for hundreds of little groups with different agendas. Not much work in the short term, and causes SCORES of problems in the long run.

 

Just MY 2 cents. :)

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

Herid Fel's last message to Rand was a note, it said "Belief and order give strength" in it. He said he would elaborate later on it, but he was assassinated before he could. In that same note he mentions clearing rubble before building. The thing is, his comment about belief and order giving strength came before clearing rubble (breaking the seals), which means it's more important than that.

 

The opposite of order is chaos, so obviously this balance is key to the last battle, but how exactly it works is anyone's guess. Probably goes with the north/east south/west as one prophecy.

[Kaznen]

And remember that "order burns to clear his path" was said in the profiecies. But to achive that order will require him to issue order by force. Look at how he brought order to Carahien and Illian, he sent armies. And what is he doing in KoD, sending an army to Arad Doman.

[prophetman]

First off, just a slight clarification here, Taim said "Let the LOC rule" not Logain.

 

Second, this is probably not a reference to a festival day, but it is clever to catch that meaning of it. Taim is unquestionably a DF, and this whole scene does not bode well for the reds.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The precise phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" first appears in the prologue of Lord of Chaos (The First Message, p.59) Demandred says it, as a quote of his instructions from the Dark One. Semirhage and Mazrim Taim both use the exact phrase in Kinfe of Dreams. (This is additional evidence, if any were needed, that Mazrim Taim is a Darkfriend, and probably Chosen, perhaps as replacement for Asmodean or Rahvin). My understanding is that Rand al'Thor is the Lord of Chaos, inasmuch as his actions create Chaos in the Pattern. The Dark One has always tried to subvert people (threads) in the pattern, and a ta'veren as powerful as Rand al'Thor would be invaluable. The Dark One could use such a person to tear the Pattern apart, breaking the Wheel and opening his prison fully. The instructions given seem to be directed at forcing Rand into becoming less than human, then leaving him free to wreak havoc, turning the Light's champion into the Dark's workhorse. Certainly the incidents at Dumai's Wells (at the end of Lord of Chaos) led Rand in that direction, and in the epilogue we see Demandred and the Dark One gleefully laughing over their success.

[Lord of Cleveland]

I'm only on CoS so if theres any proof against this, dont tell me, just say that its a wrong idea or something!

 

But I belive that Mazrim Taim is Demandred! Cause all the Forsaken can disguize themselves! And I always thought it was fishy when Taim agreed to Rand so quickly, if he was ordered by the DO to get into Rands ranks no matter what, he would definately submit to Rand if his desires failed!

 

And please dont give spoilers, just tell me if I'm wrong or not, I do not know if there is any proof in latter books so dont spoil please!

[RobertAlexWillis]

Mazrim Taim is definitely not Demandred. I thought so too for a while, but RJ has explicitly denied it on more than one occasion. I personally believe he is a new Chosen to replace Asmodean, but that is just an opinion.

[Toy and Minion]

Dang! that would have been awesome to have Taim say "Hi, guess what, I'm your greatest enemy, time to die!"

 

And Rand's like, "I knew there was something wrong with you, die!" Then they fight and Rand wins because he has calandor

 

and the DO like, "Haha! I knew that would happen, that's why I have even more Chosen that you don't even know about and they're not who you expect!"

 

oh, sorry that was a dream I had, but it would have been cool!

[jb_kal]

Something has been bothering me about when Semirhage said this in KoD. Thus far, the few times (including Taim at the end of KoD) "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" has been said it has been in reference to letting the different machinations/plots continue uninhibited in Randland and/or to letting Rand live and him cause all the Chaos in the world himself. However, when Semi says this, it is tied to her sowing of rebellion/uprising in Seanchan and I really don't see how Rand probably had much to do with that directly?

 

Or am I just missing something?

 

(by the way, I'm new here /wave)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Semirhage is using the information about the Empire to encourage Suroth to kill Tuon, in order to proclaim herself Empress. But killing Tuon would help in Semihage's plan to prevent a Seanchan treaty with Rand al'Thor. Having Suroth kill Tuon and proclaim herself Empress would leave the Seanchan in Randland under a Darkfriend Empress, and permanently prevent that treaty.

 

 

This is a side thought, that hopefully won't lead to rabid arguing, but do we have independent confirmation of Semirhage's tale about the Seanchan Imperial family? The ship that brought the news to Ebou Dar was "arranged" for by Semirhage ... do we know if she's telling the truth? It would certainly add to the chaos if she was lying.

[Jellybelly]

We know that she is telling the truth, yes. In the epilogue of KoD, when Tuon returns from her road trip with Mat, we learn that the ship did indeed arrive with the news from Seanchan.

[Kaznen]

I think the point RobertAlexWillis is trying to make is the ship bringing the news isn't a reliable source of information.

 

She could have traveled to the ship, tortured/brainwashed/ordered so they would say the Empress is dead along with the whole Imperial family in Seachan.

 

But the truth is that the Empress and the rest are okay and have no idea what is going on in Randland.

 

Did I get it right, Bob?

 

However, I think it's a bit to elaborate a deception for Semi to under take. Not that she could, but it's to much trouble for so little gain. It all hinges on Tuon being alive or dead.

 

If she was dead then then Randland Seanchan (neat, that ryhmes) would be thrown into chaos fighting for who leads this expidition reducing their effectivness in the last battle. But if she is alive, they now see her as the empress instead of the empresses chosen heir.

 

It would be to much effort for to little gain.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That is indeed the question I was trying to raise ... and I hate being called Bob. I'm sure you didn't mean anything personal, I just find it irritating.

 

Ahem.

 

Anyway, I wasn't saying I firmly believe that is what happened, I was raising the possibility and asking if there was anything in the way of independent confirmation.

 

Arranging for one ship to bring news would hardly be a lot of effort for Semirhage. And if it all hinges on Tuon being alive or dead .... how did Semirhage get Suroth to send out Elbar with orders to find and kill Tuon? By giving her the news about the Empress.

 

That said, it probably is the truth anyway. I was just wondering if anything else confirmed it.

[Kaznen]

I was goning to say Bobby, but I thought that would be going to far. :D

[RobertAlexWillis]

Indeed.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Kaznen: I think the point RobertAlexWillis is trying to make is the ship bringing the news isn't a reliable source of information.

 

She could have traveled to the ship, tortured/brainwashed/ordered so they would say the Empress is dead along with the whole Imperial family in Seachan.

 

But the truth is that the Empress and the rest are okay and have no idea what is going on in Randland.

 

Did I get it right, Bob?

 

However, I think it's a bit to elaborate a deception for Semi to under take. Not that she could, but it's to much trouble for so little gain. It all hinges on Tuon being alive or dead.

 

If she was dead then then Randland Seanchan (neat, that ryhmes) would be thrown into chaos fighting for who leads this expidition reducing their effectivness in the last battle. But if she is alive, they now see her as the empress instead of the empresses chosen heir.

 

It would be to much effort for to little gain

 

Considering where Tarmon Gaidon is going to occur, throwing Seanchan itself doesn't really gain much. All she really needed was to make those on the east side of the Aryth Ocean beleive the Empire was in chaos. Semirhage did make a series attempt to have Tuon killed after all.

[Xeonicus]

It was my understanding that "Lord of Chaos" was the name of the Nae'blis, the Dark One's chosen. I think this title originally belonged to Ishmael, but more recently it belongs to Moridin. Who knows for sure as to whether Moridin is Ishmael reincarnated, but I think he is.

 

Anyways, when Taim says, "Let the Lord of Chaos rule", I think he is either praising the Nae'blis/Ishmael/Moridin or he himself is him in disguise. There has been a theory I saw about that, but I'm not sure about it yet. At the very least, Taim is a darkfriend or atleast an ignorant puppet of Moridin.

[demonspawn]

Hi! This is my first post on this forum so bear with me. My theory on the whole 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' is that it is not a reference to a particular person more that with everyone fighting each other they wont be able to prepare for tarmon gaidon. Also with the Seanchan Empress dead the seanchan will be in turmoil.

 

On the subject of Mazrim Taim I dont think he is Demandred, or that he started out as a DF. More likely that he was frustrated by his role as a teacher to the asha'man and was turned by one of the forsaken because he was promised power which I think is what he has always craved hence declaring himself the Dragon Reborn