Who Do You Think WILL and SHOULD Sound The Horn of Valere at The Last Battle???!

[Majsju]

Drekka Mort (and, to a lesser extent, Maj)

 

: Then WHY was the prophecy fullfilled???!

 

 

Fish

 

Keep in mind who told Mat about this. The Aelfinn. Non-human beings with unexplored abilities to read the Pattern.

The true question is WHY Suian thought that the first , who blows the Horn will be linked with it . RJ himself said that the Horn was never used before since , may be , two Ages ( as Majsju said may be Odin was the last hornblower till Mat ) , so no one could be sure about link , it's the myth at best .

 So , I think that the key of calling the Heroes is not the link with Horn , but the Need of the Pattern ( remember , not for Glory think , just for Salvation thing ) .

 My theory is based on similarity of the words " Valere " and " al'Vere " . Also , the Horn is now in the WT , Mesaana is also here and the 13/13 trick for turn a channeler for Shadow still waits their hour ... So , I think , Egwene will be the next one , who will call the Heroes of the Horn to save her , the Amyrlin Seat and one of the key players during TG from being turning to the Dark Side .

 

 

Considering the emphasis Birgitte put on the title (not word, but title) Hornsounder during her drunk chat with Mat in Ebou Dar, I would say there is no way he is not linked to the Horn by being the one sounding it. Birgitte of all people should know, yes?

 

Furthermore, there is no way RJ would spend so much effort establishing a link between Mat and the Horn, only to have a random character play that part instead during TG.

 

And if the 13+13 trick comes into play, it will not be in the WT. Look further south to see where the chance is greatest of that being attempted...

[bronnt]

LOL - Not at ALL!!!

 

And that was a REALLY good explanation of the situation - as was Maj's - I still just disagree a little bit about the technicalities of it though LOL!!! - But thats what its all about! :)

 

Bronnt...when you say a word twist...do you mean by The Pattern, by The Finns or by RJ himself lol? ;)

 

Fish

 

The Finns and RJ, by proxy.  Prophecies are always obscure so that they don't mean exactly what they seem.  The BF exemption in this case isn't a literal death and rebirth, but since prophecies aren't always to be taken literally, this qualified for it.

 

I don't take it to mean that Mat's truly living a new life, or that he's "Mat Reborn."  His thread was broken, and now it's unbroken.  As long as his thread is intact, it ties him to the Horn.

[OptimusPrime]

Furthermore, there is no way RJ would spend so much effort establishing a link between Mat and the Horn, only to have a random character play that part instead during TG.

 

I disagree with this way of thinking, there is such a thing as a plot twist; there are things we are led to believe for a looong time in this series that turn out to be a misjudgement on the characters part. I will give you the best example I can think of.

 

I am 100% sure that RJ said that Rand, as the Creators champion, is a Hero of the Horn. Birgitte, also a Hero of the Horn, remembers sections of her past lives, even though she currently exists at a time where she hasnt been spun out.

 

Rand thinks its because he is mad. I think he is wrong. I do not at all think RJ put a load of effort into this bit just for us to think it would be Mat. Remember, he DID go out of his way to prove that Aes Sedai dont know everything they think they know.

 

 

Edit. Seriously, what part of No TGS Spoilers is so hard to understand?

[MikeRiley]

The true question is WHY Suian thought that the first , who blows the Horn will be linked with it . RJ himself said that the Horn was never used before since , may be , two Ages ( as Majsju said may be Odin was the last hornblower till Mat ) , so no one could be sure about link , it's the myth at best .

 

I wouldn't say it's a myth. After it was discovered that Mat had sounded the Horn of Valere at Falme, there was some argument over whether or not he should be Healed. The idea was that they weren't sure if the horn would work for another person now that one had sounded it, or if it was tied to Mat. Such a connection would obviously break upon his death. We never got a straight up answer on whether or not he's truly linked to the Horn but we can make a fairly good assumption that he still is.

 

Even if he's not, though, everybody who knows where the Horn of Valere is still believes it of him. To them it would be pointless to sound the Horn for any other reason than to sound a horn.

[Saguin Venart]

I think it would be cool for Birgette to sound the horn. Have a hero from the age of legends summon heroes from the age of legends.

[OptimusPrime]

I think IF anyone else blows the Horn I want it to be Fain. He would not think of glory OR salvation, but revenge against the people the Horn fight for. Theres got to be some way he could exploit the fact that the Dragon and the Heroes synchronize.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Taim. So we can have a four way fight at the end. Rand v Dark One/Moridin v Padain Fain/Mordeth/Shadar Powers v Taim/Hereos of the Horn v disgruntled fans

[elilou]

Hello,

 

I'm pretty new to the WOT series and this is my first post so I apologise if this isn't the place to post this.

 

I was reading this thread and note that Mat's link to the horn was severed when Rahvin killed him and the others. Some seem to think that he may have regained his link after Rand used balefire.... Anyway....

 

I've been thinking about this and note that Mr Jordan himself has said that death severs the link and it was also detailed in book 3. If this is the case, then didn't Mat have the link severed in Rhiudean? When he was hanged.

 

Like  I said,I'm new to WOT please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

 

[Majsju]

Hello,

 

I'm pretty new to the WOT series and this is my first post so I apologise if this isn't the place to post this.

 

I was reading this thread and note that Mat's link to the horn was severed when Rahvin killed him and the others. Some seem to think that he may have regained his link after Rand used balefire.... Anyway....

 

I've been thinking about this and note that Mr Jordan himself has said that death severs the link and it was also detailed in book 3. If this is the case, then didn't Mat have the link severed in Rhiudean? When he was hanged.

 

Like  I said,I'm new to WOT please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

Mat did not die in Rhuidean. Confirmed by RJ.

[The Fisher King]

But he DID die when Rhavin toasted him ;)

 

Here is how I view Balefire in that situation.

 

I view it as one of them CPR Machines that medical folks have to bring people back that have stopped breathing or heart beating for a minute.

 

Rand's BF does NOT change the fact that Mat DIED!!!

 

It only changes that fact that Mat is STILL dead.

 

The fact that he is alive again now, thanks to the BF, doesn't mean that he didn't die.

 

He died. Coded. Flatlined. Beep Beep Beep.

 

Rand then used BF like a doctor would use a CPR Machine to bring someone back.

 

So Mats now alive again.

 

But he still died. (And the connection to The Horn is still severed).

 

Fish

[budgemano]

But he DID die when Rhavin toasted him ;)

 

Here is how I view Balefire in that situation.

 

I view it as one of them CPR Machines that medical folks have to bring people back that have stopped breathing or heart beating for a minute.

 

Rand's BF does NOT change the fact that Mat DIED!!!

 

It only changes that fact that Mat is STILL dead.

 

The fact that he is alive again now, thanks to the BF, doesn't mean that he didn't die.

 

He died. Coded. Flatlined. Beep Beep Beep.

 

Rand then used BF like a doctor would use a CPR Machine to bring someone back.

 

So Mats now alive again.

 

But he still died. (And the connection to The Horn is still severed).

 

Fish

 

It doesn't work like that. Balefire is a paradox, you can't really apply any real world situations to it. Anyway, based on WOT theology in the case you described the thread in the pattern is obviously still intact if they can bring them back, so though the body is "dead" by our medical terminology the soul is still there. So now, in your case, Mat isn't Pattern dead as it were.

 

I think your issue is the conflict between dying and living again via the 'Finns and dying to break the link to the horn. I think (maybe not...) we can all agree that Rahvin killed Mat. Smoking boots and all. The BF changed that so Mat and co are no longer dead. So Mat dies, his link to the horn is severed, then oops in an instant Mat is no longer dead, never was dead, and as such his link to the horn is back. In essence it never went away.

 

Now the die and live again thing. Perhaps the 'Finns have greater pattern reading skills than we give them credit for, and were able to read down two lines of the Worlds of If. So they know Mat will die and a create a reality without Mat, but they also can see that Rand will BF Rahvin and split that into a timeline where he didn't die. Idk how they do it, they are supposed to be mysterious.

 

Kind of rehashing the same arguments everyone else made her, but to me it just seems intuitively obvious ;)

[OptimusPrime]

But he DID die when Rhavin toasted him ;)

 

Here is how I view Balefire in that situation.

 

I view it as one of them CPR Machines that medical folks have to bring people back that have stopped breathing or heart beating for a minute.

 

Rand's BF does NOT change the fact that Mat DIED!!!

 

It only changes that fact that Mat is STILL dead.

 

The fact that he is alive again now, thanks to the BF, doesn't mean that he didn't die.

 

He died. Coded. Flatlined. Beep Beep Beep.

 

Rand then used BF like a doctor would use a CPR Machine to bring someone back.

 

So Mats now alive again.

 

But he still died. (And the connection to The Horn is still severed).

 

Fish

 

Noooooooo.

 

The only reason the connection can break is if Mat died. The death no longer happened because Mat is alive; what broke the connection? Mats death certainly didnt because it no longer happened. Why is Mats medallion still working even though Rahvin melted it? Because Rahvin no longer did anything to Mat. Or Aviendha, or Asmodean.

[The Fisher King]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh man.

 

This is where I think so many years of misperception have come from concerning Balefire.

 

BF did NOT mean that Mat ''no longer died.''

He did. Still. Post-Balefire it is still an accurate statement to say ''Mat died.''

It is the EFFECT of his dying (him being DEAD) that got Balefired out of The Pattern. And this is straight out of The Creator's mouth.

 

So, because of Balefire, Mat is no longer DEAD (hes alive again now), but, he DID still 'die.'

 

No two ways about it lol. ;)

 

 

Fish

[OptimusPrime]

It is the EFFECT of his dying (him being DEAD) that got Balefired out of The Pattern. And this is straight out of The Creator's mouth

 

Mat being DEAD was what broke the connection to the Horn. Since that was balefired out of the Pattern, the breaking of the connection was also balefired out of the Pattern. There is nothing in the books to make you think otherwise Fish.

 

What you are saying, basically, is that if I use Compulsion on someone and then get balefired, the Compulsion is removed, but the effect of the Compulsion (ie the Compulsion) is not removed.

 

You cannot prove your theory right; if something happened because of someones death, and then that persons death was balefired out of the Pattern, the thing that happened because of their death wont happen either. Hence the reason why entire cities were burnt out of the Pattern in the past.

[The Fisher King]

What you are saying, basically, is that if I use Compulsion on someone and then get balefired, the Compulsion is removed, but the effect of the Compulsion (ie the Compulsion) is not removed.

 

Correct Drekka Prime ;)

 

That IS how I have always viewed it.

 

I mean, Im not trying to argue...Im just saying that: I have been reading these books for many, many years and that is just how *I* have always percieved it.

 

 

Fish

[Asgard Thorin]

Mat. Mat,MatMat. Matrim Mat. Will and should. He'll only not sound it if he stays dead, which he won't 'cause he's the coolest of the three boys-and the story would kinda collapse if he died. He also was hanged and dead at Rhuidean, but he didn't stay dead there either. I'm really looking forward to what he does about Thom's letter, and Tuon's reaction when she finds out her betrothed is the Hornsounder.

[Som1else]

I always thought the dying and being born again was that mat was going to die before the horn was sounded at the last battle, be bound to the wheel, and come back when the horn was sounded again by someone else. i thought him dying in camylin was more of dying and being revived not born again.

[redarm]

He also was hanged and dead at Rhuidean, but he didn't stay dead there either.

 

He did not die when hung from the tree.  He was near death when Rand found him.  I believe RJ stated this in an interview.  Don't have a quote, just remember seeing it.

[The Fisher King]

Nooo.

 

He was D.E.A.D. when The Finns hung him in The Waste.

 

D.E.A.D. ;)

 

RJ did intimate though that, while he WAS dead, he hadn't been dead LONG ENOUGH to where it would have been impossible for rand to revive him and bring him back.

 

Basicall, Rand ''Resuccitated'' him - same exact as when paramedics resuccistate someone that has stopped breathing for a moment - same deal.

 

 

Fish

[bronnt]

Nooo.

 

He was D.E.A.D. when The Finns hung him in The Waste.

 

D.E.A.D. ;)

 

RJ did intimate though that, while he WAS dead, he hadn't been dead LONG ENOUGH to where it would have been impossible for rand to revive him and bring him back.

 

Basicall, Rand ''Resuccitated'' him - same exact as when paramedics resuccistate someone that has stopped breathing for a moment - same deal.

 

 

Fish

 

Oh dear.  First page of the thread.  Mat's dying and living again is what happened in Caemlyn.  Direct from RJ.  He did not die while hanging.  He was not dead, nor was he D.E.A.D.  Nor was he departed, deceased, expired, extinct, burned toast, worm food, mincemeat, pushing up daisies, or biting the dust.

[jaldy3]

All of this debate on BF is interesting. However, if the link between Mat and the Horn is broken, it was done when Mat was carried from the second doorway at Ruidean and was hung. Rand found him with no heartbeat and no breathing. DEAD!!!.Crude CPR brought him back thus "die and live again"

 

 

Also, Mat had no connection to the Horn when He first blew it at Falme, and the Heroes came. So if his connection is severed there is still no reason he could not sound it again.

Just my 2 cents

[OptimusPrime]

Mat didnt die at Rhuidean. He was unconscious. Rand revived him through CPR.

[jaldy3]

quoted from the last paragraph of pg 437 of The Shadow Rising.

"Letting sword and Power go, he ripped the rope away from Mat's neck and pressed an ear to his friend's chest. Nothing. Desparately, he tore open Mat's coat and shirt, breaking the leather cord that held a silver medallion on Mat's chest. He tossed the medallion aside,listened again. Nothing. No heartbeat. Dead. No! He'd be all right if I had'nt let him follow me here. I can't let him be dead!

 

 

I don't know how you might define dead, for me this does it rather nicely.

No heartbeat, no breath, you cant get any deader. Also, this condition lasted far longer than the almost instanaeous moment he was dead before Rahvin was Balefired. So if the link to the horn is broken this is the moment it happened.

It is intirely possible that RJ forgot at the moment the question was asked that this incident took place. Making Mat's death at the hands of Rahvin, seem to be the moment of the Finn proclamation.

 

 

[The Fisher King]

Yup.

 

No heartbeat = D.E.A.D.

 

;)

 

 

Fish

 

 

 

''Treasures. Dealings. Lots of things in books.''

 

 

 

[FarShainMael]

You'd have to ask the 'finns what they mean by 'die'.. they aren't part of the Randland universe, after all!

 

(Hmm. What did they mean when they said to Rand: 'to live, you must die'?)