A Question of Possibility

[Nightstrike]

Is it possible to turn balefire against yourself? No, probably not.

[OptimusPrime]

The oddity I was talking about is the connection between Rand and Moridin.

So what?

 

??? Let me get this straight. You ask me which oddity I spoke of, I say the connection, and you say SO WHAT. In case you didnt notice, this is supposed to be a debate, not something where you act like a prick.

 

You know what? Im not going to bother discussing this with you. Have fun thinking you know it all

[Nightstrike]

Wouldnt it create some oddity like it did with Moridin and Rand? In my oppinion, the question "Whos balefire wins?" was unanswerable which is why the unusual connection was formed.

That wasn't the same thing. That was OP & TP streams crossing each other. Not two people balefiring each other.

Proof please? My theory is that the sickness is the side effect of the True Power being involved but the connection itself would be there even if it was two Saidar streams.

What oddity are we talking about? There's only been one incident with OP & TP streams crossing. We know what happens when someone is balefired. Their weaves become erased. There's your proof.

 

[Talmanes]

First off as I recall one cannot use a weave on one's self. For example you can't heal yourself. So the weave would probably dissipate. If we say that theoretically it does work, the person would die, because balefire is permanent. Once you are balefired your thread is erased from the pattern for good. There is no coming back. Your actions of balefireing yourself would undo leaving you alive, because you no longer exist. It wouldn't be able to cancel out, because you would already be erased. What I think is interesting, though, is what would happen if someone balefired Matt? I wonder if the medallion is strong enough to stop it.

[Nightstrike]

Mat's, Asmodean's & Aviendha's threads were gone for perhaps 15 minutes, before Rahvin got dead before they became dead. Oh, and balefire isn't permanent.

 

You can't only not use a weave on yourself, but 2 people can't simultaneously lift each other. RJ said so. So there is some sort of "source sensitivity" - or whatever it should be called?

 

I don't think balefire is a weave in itself. So I don't think Mat's medallion would stop it.

 

[Talmanes]

First off where exactly do you get the opinion that balefire isn't permanent.

 

And second of course balefire is a weave. It is a weave of the True Source. The only way to use it is with weaves. What else could it possibly be?

[Nightstrike]

First off where exactly do you get the opinion that balefire isn't permanent.

Q: "If person A balefires person B, then person C balefires person A, what happens?"

RJ: Depends on how strong the balefire was....

Balefire does not exist once it's woven. If the person is erased, then the effects of balefire are erased. Eliminating that paradox.

 

(The Wheel rearranges reality after the Balefire.)

 

And second of course balefire is a weave. It is a weave of the True Source. The only way to use it is with weaves. What else could it possibly be?

It could be an effect. Like lightning, or something like that.

 

 

[mb]

Your actions of balefireing yourself would undo leaving you alive, because you no longer exist.

Only if the balefire's time is more than the time for the weave to hit.

 

[Talmanes]

The oddity I was talking about is the connection between Rand and Moridin.

So what?

 

??? Let me get this straight. You ask me which oddity I spoke of, I say the connection, and you say SO WHAT. In case you didnt notice, this is supposed to be a debate, not something where you act like a prick.

 

You know what? Im not going to bother discussing this with you. Have fun thinking you know it all

It is not supposed to be a debate it is supposed to be a discussion. And rude remarks and personal attacks are not necessary.

[Nightstrike]

Your actions of balefireing yourself would undo leaving you alive, because you no longer exist.

Only if the balefire's time is more than the time for the weave to hit.

OK, let's assume that it is possible to turn it against yourself. When weaving a Gateway, it takes a certain strength to make the weave work. It probably works the same way in this case. Rand with angreal took Rahvin out 15 minutes backwards. Let's say 7 minutes without angreal. Light speed is 300 000 km per second - that's probably the speed that balefire travels by as well.

 

Shooting an  infinitesimally thin Balefire stream (if it's possible to make it that thin) through a Gateway, and hitting yourself would be hard to achieve without hitting a speck of dust or some large molecule along the way. Even if you were lucky/unlucky enough to do it, you'd probably only erase a dead skin cell. :D

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

Q: If I were to open a gateway in front of me that opened behind me, and I balefired myself, what would happen?

 

RJ: Young lady, you are entirely too obsessed and have far too much time. You need to get some sort of life. I suggest you go have an intense love affair. Doesn’t matter with who, be it man, woman, or German Shepard.

I guess RJ thought we should go get laid.  :D

 

 

[Casabamelon]

Mat's, Asmodean's & Aviendha's threads were gone for perhaps 15 minutes, before Rahvin got dead before they became dead. Oh, and balefire isn't permanent.

 

No their threads were not gone. They still exist, they're just dead. Balefire actually destroys a person's thread in the pattern. All things have a thread in the pattern, people, animals, clothing, buildings. A dead body is still a thread in the pattern.

[Nightstrike]

No, both your soul and your thread are gone once you're dead. Remove only the soul, and you get Troial (the Ogier without a soul).

 

Balefire means that you're dead before your "apparent" death. Death=the thread of your life is gone from the Pattern.

 

Everything has a thread in the Pattern, but now we're talking about the thread of the living person. Not the thread of his physical body.

[Casabamelon]

No, both your soul and your thread are gone once you're dead. Remove only the soul, and you get Troial (the Ogier without a soul).

 

Balefire means that you're dead before your "apparent" death. Death=the thread of your life is gone from the Pattern.

 

Everything has a thread in the Pattern, but now we're talking about the thread of the living person. Not the thread of his physical body.

 

You've got the thread that is the physical body and the soul (no thread). Neither is "gone" they are just separated. A dead body is an inanimate object, just like a column or a boat hull. We have seen columns and boat hulls get balefired, balefire acts on the thread in the pattern, ergo inanimate objects have a thread in the pattern. Since a person's soul can't be destroyed (else how would they be reborn?), death is a separation of the soul and the body. If balefire causes a body to be brought back to life, the soul still exists to be reattached. If a person is baledfired, and then the balefiree is balefired, the original body's thread no longer exists, so there is nothing for the soul to reattach to.

 

If your thread was gone after you just any old death, then there would be no difference between a sword to the gut (or lightning from the sky) and balefire. Either one would be enough. There has to still be a thread for someone to come back to life.

[Nightstrike]

You've got the thread that is the physical body and the soul (no thread).

You've got the thread that is the physical body, the thread that is the life & you also have the soul. Soulless (but living) have the first & the second. Those that are dead have the first or none.

 

There has to still be a thread for someone to come back to life.

Not if your killer is balefired.

[Casabamelon]

There has to still be a thread for someone to come back to life.

Not if your killer is balefired.

 

Then where does the thread come from if you become un-balefired? The thread has burned backwards. Are you saying that the wheel just takes the burned stub and weaves it back where it would have been? If the wheel can self repair thusly, when why is balefire a big deal?

[OptimusPrime]

There has to still be a thread for someone to come back to life.

Not if your killer is balefired.

 

Then where does the thread come from if you become un-balefired? The thread has burned backwards. Are you saying that the wheel just takes the burned stub and weaves it back where it would have been? If the wheel can self repair thusly, when why is balefire a big deal?

 

The theory is that if your balefire-calculated death was ten minutes ago, and then your killer was balefired, the strength of the balefire would need to go back further than your calculated death. Your killers actions actually killed you ten minutes ago, so the balefire that kills the person who killed you would have to be incredibly strong. Its a similar retraint to the Dark Ones ability to catch a soul, but in this instance, the more time that passes the harder it becomes because the required balefire strength to bring you back from balefire grows with every passing second.

 

Extreme example; Moiraine balefires Bel'al, Rand immediately balefires Moiraine with Callandor maxing it out, Bel'al lives.

[Casabamelon]

There has to still be a thread for someone to come back to life.

Not if your killer is balefired.

 

Then where does the thread come from if you become un-balefired? The thread has burned backwards. Are you saying that the wheel just takes the burned stub and weaves it back where it would have been? If the wheel can self repair thusly, when why is balefire a big deal?

 

The theory is that if your balefire-calculated death was ten minutes ago, and then your killer was balefired, the strength of the balefire would need to go back further than your calculated death. Your killers actions actually killed you ten minutes ago, so the balefire that kills the person who killed you would have to be incredibly strong. Its a similar retraint to the Dark Ones ability to catch a soul, but in this instance, the more time that passes the harder it becomes because the required balefire strength to bring you back from balefire grows with every passing second.

 

Extreme example; Moiraine balefires Bel'al, Rand immediately balefires Moiraine with Callandor maxing it out, Bel'al lives.

 

So what happens if two people balefire each other at the same time? Assume the distance between the two is enough that the weave fully made and the bar of light is generated, the strength is enough to burn back greater than the time it takes for the balefire to travel, and both people are struck at exactly the same time.

 

What happens?

[OptimusPrime]

There is no way to be sure. But Im not buying the idea that both people die normally. Maybe their threads become connected like Rands and Moridins

[Nightstrike]

So what happens if two people balefire each other at the same time? Assume the distance between the two is enough that the weave fully made and the bar of light is generated, the strength is enough to burn back greater than the time it takes for the balefire to travel, and both people are struck at exactly the same time.

Is that even possible? Exactly the same time? I don't think it is...

 

Theoretically, if it had been possible, it would be the stronger weave that beats the weaker one.

[Azrael Maravaile]

I think the most important thing to remember on this topic is that everytime you balefire yourself, the Dark One kills a kitten

[Casabamelon]

So what happens if two people balefire each other at the same time? Assume the distance between the two is enough that the weave fully made and the bar of light is generated, the strength is enough to burn back greater than the time it takes for the balefire to travel, and both people are struck at exactly the same time.

Is that even possible? Exactly the same time? I don't think it is...

 

Theoretically, if it had been possible, it would be the stronger weave that beats the weaker one.

Why not?

 

And it's a thought exercise. What if both weaves are made with the same strength?

 

Impossible? Why?

[jaldy3]

When Balefire is used the target is erased from the pattern, almost as though they never existed, the people or things are remembered but they no longer exist to be re-born into the pattern at a later date. Anything they did in the 1 or 2 seconds before being balefired is undone.

 

If you could balefire yourself, you would cease to exist almost as if you never were and anything you did immediately prior to that act would be undone, but you would no longer exist.

 

If it worked like some are claiming. The person balefired would come back a second or 2 prior to being balefired and we know that is not the case.

All the Darkhounds and people balefired are gone almost as though they never existed.

[rubbernilly]

When Balefire is used the target is erased from the pattern, almost as though they never existed, the people or things are remembered but they no longer exist to be re-born into the pattern at a later date.

 

No, a person who is balefired can be reborn. RJ has said so, and it is explicitly stated in the text, although because this is a spoiler free board, I can't quote it.

 

The balefire simply makes it difficult/impossible for the DO to claim the soul (since the person died before the moment that the DO could have claimed it), so there is no recycling a balefired-darkfriend or balefired-Chosen.

[mb]

About spoilers, only Gathering Storm content is currently disallowed.

If I remember correctly, the implied statement was not in Gathering Storm.

 

 

Anything they did in the 1 or 2 seconds before being balefired is undone.

That actually depends on the balefire's strength.

Moiraine told that her balefire could undo no more than 2 seconds of the target's actions.  She implied that Rand's could undo much more.

 

[Nightstrike]

I think Moiraine might be mistaken. Where would her info have come from?

 

Moggy managed minutes with her balefire.