The Psychology of an Abomination

[Myyrth]

I'm curious as to what some of your thoughts are on the mentality of a Myrddraal.  How do they think, what emotional and intellectual capacity do they have?

 

I for one see a Myrddraal as something that is at least partly human, yet has some essential human component severed from it both in a physical sense and a spiritual sense.  The Eyeless have no souls, and in one way or another are tainted and warped by the Dark Ones influence.  All of this is on top "being out of phase with reality as we know it" paraphrasing Aginor.

 

This to me leads me to compare them at least psychologically to a sociopath.  At least that would be a human diagnosis for the mentality, but for a creature that is so far removed from any vestige of it's potential humanity it is perhaps not appropriate.  Still I think it captures the mind state that a Myrddraal exists in.  A Fade is a thing lacking entirely in conscience or empathy.  They are predators incapable of feeling love, or compassion.  Incapable of even feeling hate as a human would understand it, they are hollow inside and thus seek to fill that hollowness with the pain of other living things.  Some part of them understands what an abomination they are and strives to fill that void.  So when a Myrddraal feels pleasure, it's not so much pleasure but a satiating of some desperate need to feel anything at all.  They are like the shadows they blend into, ragged and empty vessels thrive on base activities.

 

What are your thoughts?  This is mostly out of simple interest in how others interpret the natures of the creatures that exist in Randland.  Trollocs always struck me as simply beastial, similar in many respects to traditionally evil Orcs or other barbarous monster races.  The Myrddraal seem to have a compelling amount of psychological depth, even if what lies beneath is nothing but a horrifying and murderous abomination incapable of remorse.

[OptimusPrime]

I think they are connected somehow. They are made out to be exactly identical, production-line-like similarities. Fair enough, the immediate factors are the lack of eyes and snake-like movement, but Shaidar Haran stood out immediately to the Forsaken originally because of his height, in that it is taller than the rest. But it felt like they would have given the same reaction if he was the same height but bigger built or whatever.

 

Would love to get an explanation on exactly what it means to be out of phase with time/reality. I really wish Osan'gar got away

[Nightstrike]

I think they are twisted into being very similar to each other. No humor, and so on.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372

 

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q:  How does the idea of souls apply to constructs such as Nym and Trollocs? Could either of them be reborn?

RJ:  To whoever put this one forward, this is one of the best questions I've ever gotten! Nym and Trollocs both have souls, and either could be reborn, but since Nym were a pure construct (i.e. each of them was individually made, like hand-crafting) a Nym would not be reborn as a Nym. You might say that a Nym's soul was borrowed temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth. A Trolloc, however, bears a twisted, or corrupted soul, and would be reborn as a Trolloc. Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul.

 

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

Kurafire: What happens to the soul of someone when he becomes a Gray Man? Is his thread removed from the Pattern, or are threads and souls different things altogether?

RJ: Err, they are... Oh, uhm, no, it is gone. It is gone. And it ceases to exist in any form that you could of as real.

Kurafire: So threads and souls are the same thing?

RJ:  Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment. The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

 

[Feral]

"being out of phase with reality as we know it" paraphrasing Aginor.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be taking that in a psychological context whereas I think it was meant in a physical one eg. their ability to use shadows and the way it takes them ages to die. Could be wrong though.

 

 

[mb]

How do myrddraal think?  There is at least one POV of Shaidar Haran. (Crown of Swords Chapter 40)  Myrddraal thought might be related to that.

 

[Myyrth]

Are you implying that your physical nature doesn't affect your psychology?  I beg to differ.  I think it would have a massive effect on how you would both understand yourself and understand others.

 

I see Myrddraal psychology as intimately tied to their physical nature as a manipulated life form tainted by the True Power.  I see them as Sociopaths, at least in the way modern human psychology understands it.  Incapable of envy, by their nature selfish and manipulative.  In fact that "out of phase" statement even reinforces my opinion on this considering that I see their extra-dimensional nature to be key to that sense of separation or narcissism.

 

I also think their is a difference between being a bad guy and being evil and being a sociopath and evil.

[Kryptoith]

As far as Shaidar Haran goes, even if he is different from other myrddraal, it is mentioned once during his POV that he wishes he were free from the dark one and could make his own decisions.

 

So maybe all fades are like that, it's not that they are sociopaths and can't feel remorse and whatnot, it's that the DO has such a degree of control over them that the part of them that is human has to kind of watch what their DO controlled trolloc half does. Without the ability to make any choices the human part probably quickly accepts what it is, and might even welcome it.

 

Or that could just be Shaidar Haran.

[Myyrth]

Somehow I don't think Shaidar Haran wants to be free of the DO so he can give candy to children and walk old ladies across the street.  A thing can still be evil and desire freedom from another evil.  Just look at Padan Fain or Slayer.  Remorseless killers, not neccesarily tied to the DO.

[dapianoplay3r]

I dnt thnk they thnk that much at all. They have orders and thats what they do. I dnt thnk they even thnk bout the killing

[Myyrth]

I always felt that Myrddraal had more going on than just blind obediance.  They are described as being  aviid and experienced torturers with their own brand of "amusements."  They have thoughts, they have a social hierarchy.  They may be brutal sociopathic monsters but they still have thoughts.

[Kryptoith]

Oh I agree that they themselves are definetly pretty sick even without the DO, I just think that if the DO was removed the lack of influence by the DO might at least allow them to change. Unlike trollocs, who with or without the DO are pretty much just mindless killers, excepting Narg of course.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the DO forces them to do these evils and that since they have no choice in the matter they accept it and find as much enjoyment in it as possible. If there were no DO though I believe they would be more humanlike with both the capacity for evils or goods, and wouldn't be true sociopaths. Of course they would probably still mostly be on the wrong side of the line because of being born from trollocs and their culture.

 

P.S. You like that song in the Bayonetta commercial?

[NetSlider]

I think that the most important thing about Fades is that they were never born (wolves' name - Neverborn). Trollocs are not call that so it stands to reason that they are "born" in some fashion. Fades are "produced" i guess, which makes them some sort of "clones/robots"?

[Hallow]

As far as Shaidar Haran goes, even if he is different from other myrddraal, it is mentioned once during his POV that he wishes he were free from the dark one and could make his own decisions.

 

So maybe all fades are like that, it's not that they are sociopaths and can't feel remorse and whatnot, it's that the DO has such a degree of control over them that the part of them that is human has to kind of watch what their DO controlled trolloc half does. Without the ability to make any choices the human part probably quickly accepts what it is, and might even welcome it.

 

Or that could just be Shaidar Haran.

 

Actually his annoyance isn't with the fact that he's tied to the DO, rather that he is tied to Shayol Gul and cannot leave there for long periods of time.

[Hack n Slash]

I think that the most important thing about Fades is that they were never born (wolves' name - Neverborn). Trollocs are not call that so it stands to reason that they are "born" in some fashion. Fades are "produced" i guess, which makes them some sort of "clones/robots"?

 

I'm fairly certain that it has been stated that Myrrdraal are born to Trollocs. They are a throwback to the original human stock, with the human part stronger but the taint of evil also stronger.

[Nightstrike]

Trollocs were a failure before the myrdraal, since they couldn't be controlled (BWB).

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Dallas Borders 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting

 

Myrddraal are not Trollocs who can channel.  Their powers are totally independent from the One Power.  They really are just throwbacks to the human stock.  Harriet added that there are also animal throwbacks, but they just die.

 

Letter to Pam Korda from RJ - 1995

...

Yes, there are female Trollocs, though you don't want to know more than that...there was a clear statement of this actually--that Trollocs breed--when where Myrddraal come from was explained. Sometimes a Trolloc offspring is a throwback, but not all the way back to human, and twisted. Thus, eyeless but with keen vision, very strong indeed though not in Trolloc-class, able to vanish into shadows & reappear in other shadows...There are no female Myrddraal; not even the laddie who made the Trollocs in the first place knew why...

 

 

 

About Shaidar Haran:

WinespringBrother reporting:

 

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature - it is the Dark One in shadowy form.

 

[NetSlider]

I think that the most important thing about Fades is that they were never born (wolves' name - Neverborn). Trollocs are not call that so it stands to reason that they are "born" in some fashion. Fades are "produced" i guess, which makes them some sort of "clones/robots"?

 

I'm fairly certain that it has been stated that Myrrdraal are born to Trollocs. They are a throwback to the original human stock, with the human part stronger but the taint of evil also stronger.

 

I never heard that before. I know fades were made fairly at the same time as trollocs, and I'm sure one or the other is somewhat connected as a stepping stone for the "newer one". As far as "throwback," i don't know about that. On the other hand, though, maybe that's the difference - one is born the other one is produced.

[Nightstrike]

The first Trollocs were made by Aginor.

 

The first Myrddraal came as (unforeseen?) throwbacks.

 

No Myrddraal or Trolloc has been "artificially produced" since AoL. Both are born.