A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[saidarisnowtainted]

What would happen if messy went to TAR and used the oath rod ahead of time and swore that she when she spoke the 3 oaths in the waking world she would intend the opposite meaning of whatever word she used in the waking world when stating each oath?

[saidarisnowtainted]

Another possibility is based on the strength of the oath.  If I am a forsaken I can avoid the binding by speaking the oath by prefacing it in the strongest manner-i.e. "By the light and the hope of my salvation and rebirth.". I likely misquoted that.  But the point is everyone wold think she is in the light and ultimately bound when in fact she has no hope of salvation and rebirth in the light.  The oaths would only bind if she walked in the light!

[saidarisnowtainted]

Wow-"TheHaveNot" thought of my idea b/f me.  :(". I must have missed it when reading.

[Bobbun]

I've read some interesting theories on this thread, but nothing has been sufficient to convince me that the simplest answer (i.e. that Mesaana does not consider herself a mere Darkfriend or Black Ajah) is the best.

 

The best?  ROFL.  You certainly favor a popular choice, but to me that's the lamest way it could possibly be done.  There's no denying the workability of the concept.  But that implementation of Mesaana's getaway is terribly predictable, shows no creativity whatsoever, and is just generally boring.  Would you really want to read this story if it was full of such simple solutions?  The fact that the Three Oaths can be evaded creates some interest and suspense in the story, so long as the concept isn't abused.  As soon as that weakness becomes an "easy out" for significant plotlines, though, it ceases to be interesting and becomes just another cliche.

[Luckers]

If Mesaana were to swear "Under the Light and by my salvation and hope of rebirth" wouldn't that make the oaths null and void since she feels that she will live forever under the Shadow?

 

I missed this, but its an interesting idea. If she's swearing by her hope of rebirth, and has no hope of rebirth, does that make it void?

 

Frankly, I doubt it. But still a clever thought.

[Sharaman]

If Mesaana were to swear "Under the Light and by my salvation and hope of rebirth" wouldn't that make the oaths null and void since she feels that she will live forever under the Shadow?

 

I missed this, but its an interesting idea. If she's swearing by her hope of rebirth, and has no hope of rebirth, does that make it void?

 

Frankly, I doubt it. But still a clever thought.

 

Galina swearing to obey Therava and Sevanna, swore on the oath rod with precisely the same format (Light, salvation, rebirth) while thinking she had long since given up all hope of salvation and rebirth, etc.

The oath holds Galina. Why would it not hold Messi?

 

[Luckers]

Galina swearing to obey Therava and Sevanna, swore on the oath rod with precisely the same format (Light, salvation, rebirth) while thinking she had long since given up all hope of salvation and rebirth, etc.

The oath holds Galina. Why would it not hold Messi?

 

Because she actually has attained immortality--or at least believes she has.

 

But yes, I don't see this actually working.

[wasted]

Egwene is pretty smart. At least that’s what I always thought.

 

The White Tower is now free of Black's. Why doesn’t this extremely intelligent person see, that it will not be always so? Once an AS leaves the Tower she can easily forswear (or be forced to) the oaths and then again have a black AS within the Tower. Or dozens of different scenarios.

 

Why oh why, while having a gathering with all remaining AS in the Tower, doesn’t she forswear the oaths, reswear them for all to see - - - and then for the grand finale say (not on the oath rod, but by the first all will know it for truth, simply say

 

“I will never utter the words that would unbind me from the three oaths I just swore before all of you” (that includes of free will, being forced to, speaking, screaming, whispering and so on..

 

“I also swear, that I will never serve or pledge myself to the Shadow or the Dark One [insert as many synonyms as you like, GLotD ect pp]”

 

Add

 

“I swear that I will always work for the good of the Tower and the greater good of the World, which when in conflict takes precedence”

 

 

Let these exact words be sworn be everyone present, by every returning AS, order every encountered AS who has not sworn yet by the order of the Amyrlin to return to the Tower immediately [if there’s no battle going on; or something similar] and swear. Also by every newly raised AS. You get the picture.

 

What would you have? An entire Tower, which will ALWAYS work for the greater good, the good of the Tower and never serve the DO.

 

How the heck can I think of this, while it dosen't even seem to cross Egwene's mind?

How can she not see, that the WT is by no means save from the Black’s?

 

 

Now that would be a real Cleansing.

 

 

Edit: Especially when she even thinks about how Mesaana defeated the OR...

[thewalrus777]

Egwene is pretty smart. At least that’s what I always thought.

 

The White Tower is now free of Black's. Why doesn’t this extremely intelligent person see, that it will not be always so? Once an AS leaves the Tower she can easily forswear (or be forced to) the oaths and then again have a black AS within the Tower. Or dozens of different scenarios.

 

Why oh why, while having a gathering with all remaining AS in the Tower, doesn’t she forswear the oaths, reswear them for all to see - - - and then for the grand finale say (not on the oath rod, but by the first all will know it for truth, simply say

 

“I will never utter the words that would unbind me from the three oaths I just swore before all of you” (that includes of free will, being forced to, speaking, screaming, whispering and so on..

 

“I also swear, that I will never serve or pledge myself to the Shadow or the Dark One [insert as many synonyms as you like, GLotD ect pp]”

 

Add

 

“I swear that I will always work for the good of the Tower and the greater good of the World, which when in conflict takes precedence”

 

 

Let these exact words be sworn be everyone present, by every returning AS, order every encountered AS who has not sworn yet by the order of the Amyrlin to return to the Tower immediately [if there’s no battle going on; or something similar] and swear. Also by every newly raised AS. You get the picture.

 

What would you have? An entire Tower, which will ALWAYS work for the greater good, the good of the Tower and never serve the DO.

 

How the heck can I think of this, while it dosen't even seem to cross Egwene's mind?

How can she not see, that the WT is by no means save from the Black’s?

 

 

Now that would be a real Cleansing.

 

 

Edit: Especially when she even thinks about how Mesaana defeated the OR...

 

This is true. Only it's just too logical for Aes Sedai to think of. Aes Sedai always prefer to do things the hard way for some reason. And yes Egwene as smart as she is should have thought of this and presented it to the Hall. With the way she's been getting people to come around to her place as Amyrlin, she should easily be able to get the additions to the oaths added. Those additions you speak of can only add to cause of the Aes Sedai and not hinder it. And not to mention, the kingdoms of Randland would be far more trusting of the WT. I can see only good things from this.

[yoniy0]

Well, there is this little issue of whether or not to use the OR with the addition: if they do, it might shorten their lives even more. If they don't, someone might at some point find a reason why her oaths no longer apply.

But most of all, you can't write a book that way - everyone always doing the most logical thing. It won't be interesting. Plus, most of the time you can't even know what that is. What Egwene did kept betrayal from within the WT to a sporadic level during TG, and that's probably enough in her mind.

[thewalrus777]

Well, there is this little issue of whether or not to use the OR with the addition: if they do, it might shorten their lives even more. If they don't, someone might at some point find a reason why her oaths no longer apply.

But most of all, you can't write a book that way - everyone always doing the most logical thing. It won't be interesting. Plus, most of the time you can't even know what that is. What Egwene did kept betrayal from within the WT to a sporadic level during TG, and that's probably enough in her mind.

 

Also true. One persons version of what's right is usually different than anothers. So yes, technically the additions would still be able to be gotten around.

[NetSlider]

Most (if not all) ways to evade any binding oath I think have this in common:: belief

 

not speaking any untrue thing: belief in the thing being true

not making any weapon with which a man could kill another: belief that the thing does not kill and/or is not a weapon

not using One Power except against Shadowspawn or in defense of self/warder/Aes-Sedia: belief that victim is a shadowspawn and/or belief that victim threatens life of self/warder/Aes-Sedia

 

oaths of fealty: belief that the action would be something that the other would wish or would command

not betraying someone except in last hour of life: belief that death would come within an hour and/or belief that action/speech does not betray the someone

 

I dont think belief would cut it. In AoL they used binding and wasn't it Greindahl (sp) that instead of being binded has chosen the DO (at least one of the Forsaken). In any event, if it was that easy to go around the oaths what's the point for BA break the oath. It only points to the fact that BA and forsaken alike don't want to be bindded by the oaths because the binding actually works. So, the only way to avoid 3 oaths would be not to take it.

 

As far as Messeana definitely being AS, I really don't see any proof. Remember Lanfear visiting Mat in tDR, was she AS? Well, we don't know but we do know that she was in the tower and possibly without pretending being AS. I mean, Messeana does not need to be AS to do what needs to be done. She needs to be only inside the tower. She can even take on the disguise with the reverse weaves and even mask her ability to channel. It makes sense if she would have people believe to be an AS while not being one. This argument that she IS and HAS to be AS makes no sense. In other words (and i guess repeating myself again :)) she is IN THE TOWER but does not have to be AS. 

[wasted]

Well, there is this little issue of whether or not to use the OR with the addition: if they do, it might shorten their lives even more. If they don't, someone might at some point find a reason why her oaths no longer apply.

 

Well - no. With the first Oath that's all taken care of, if you would say "under no circumstances will I ever say the word 'firefighter'"

 

With the first oath intact, you will never be able to say 'firefighter'. You can say fire, you can say fighter, you can say guy who fights the fire, but never firefighter.

 

Also mental gymnastics work for both ways.

With the first oath intact, it doesnt matter if you swear to absolutly obbey the Amyrlin with or without the OR.

But in both cases if you somehow think that the Amyrlin isnt Amyrlin anymore, no method would hold you.

 

But most of all, you can't write a book that way - everyone always doing the most logical thing. It won't be interesting.

 

I agree, you can't write a book with everyone always doing the most logical thing.

But in some instances, like this cleansing, you could at least rid the white Tower of Darkfriends for good.

 

I think you didn't quite get my point. I agree, with a fully DF-free Tower and no AS as a DF, the story would be kind of lame.

 

But thats not the case here, we have AS DF's. And some will live after the LB.

Egwene will never announce to the world that some AS are DF, and here are some discriptions. Thats not the AS way.

 

But why not now that she has a chance to rid the Tower of Black's for the future take it? We still would have Black's in our World and poeple still will be killed / manipulated / ect by Blacks.

 

But at least at some point they would die out, no new Black's could be made. [Train DF channeler's elsewhere, yes; but no Black Sisters]

 

Thats my point. Why not think of the future and really cleanse the WT?

 

What Egwene did kept betrayal from within the WT to a sporadic level during TG, and that's probably enough in her mind.

 

No Way. Egwene did not think along those lines.

'Now betrayal from within is unlikely, will probably happen at some crucial point [where else would a Black Sister use the oppertunity] but thats good enough for me'

 

Again, I agree, with everyone doing the right thing everytime you can't have a good story. But every once in a while somebody doing something right would be appropriate. But alas, it would be too cool.

 

Think about it. Reading how Egwene deafeats all future hope for the Black Ajah.

 

Epic

[wasted]

Most (if not all) ways to evade any binding oath I think have this in common:: belief

 

How then would you evade an oath of absolute obedience?

[Sharaman]

@netslider

There's a whole long argument with very strong reasons given for Messi impersonating AS rather than random initiate or servant.

It's in the Mesaana thread. If you want to refute those reasons go there.

If you've discussing evading the oaths as in this thread, you're tacitly accepting that Messi is impersonating an AS. Else, she doesn't need to beat the oaths.

 

 

 

[yoniy0]

Sharaman, of course we are. That was discussed a few pages ago.

 

Well - no. With the first Oath that's all taken care of, if you would say "under no circumstances will I ever say the word 'firefighter'"

Actually, I was referring to something along the lines of what Beonin Marinye did to Egwene. She swore fealty, then went over to Elaida and taught Traveling to her (among other things) and passed over the names of the 'ferrets'. Like it or not, there are ways around promises made by someone bound by the first Oath.

 

I dont think belief would cut it.

No one's saying that belief is a way around all Oaths made on the OR. Just the first Oath. After all, Moiraine used to lie all the time, she just had no idea she was speaking untruths.

[NetSlider]

@netslider

There's a whole long argument with very strong reasons given for Messi impersonating AS rather than random initiate or servant.

It's in the Mesaana thread. If you want to refute those reasons go there.

If you've discussing evading the oaths as in this thread, you're tacitly accepting that Messi is impersonating an AS. Else, she doesn't need to beat the oaths.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the heads up, I'll take a look at the thread. While writing my last response I actually was thinking that this did not really belong here.  ;)

[wasted]

Like it or not, there are ways around promises made by someone bound by the first Oath.

 

Again, I have to disagree.

 

There is no way around an oath ob absulute obedience.

 

AS are just very careful with their wording, and we've seen many times that they can get around them.

 

But there are wordings that would make it impossible to get around someting specific.

 

See my examples above. Some oaths would be just as effective as the dominion band.

 

If you swear for incstance, that "Under no circumstances will I ever utter the words that would unbind me from any of the three oaths I took on this oarthrod 20 seconds ago"

 

If you said "Under no circumstances will I ever say the words  [...]" you could simply scream them out loud, or whisper. Clearly not the same. Wiggle room.

 

But with some oaths there is just no wiggle room; no mental gymnastics or applied force from someone else will or can make you forswear the oaths if worded correctly.

[yoniy0]

I'm not convinced. Beonin didn't wiggle out of her fealty oath to Egwene. She admitted what she did was contradictory to her oath, she just decided that her oath doesn't stand anymore (and used a very slim excuse in the process, which apparently was enough). Hence, even if your logic is infallible, someone might still one day find a reason why she shouldn't keep to her oath, thorough as it might be.

[wasted]

I'm not convinced.

 

Mh, if oaths really aren't all that binding and there's no possible way to ever have an oath which is unbreakable, why then didnt Galina Caspan simply employ whatever logic you're applying?

 

I rather think that she, beeing As since 915 NE and a Black Sister on top of that since 920 NE, would be able to if there was a way.

[Swigaro]

Adding Oaths could certainly keep the Black Ajah from comming back, but since one of Egwene’s goals is to allow AS to retire into the Kin, I think any kind of a statement that requires an AS to never forswear any oaths is just not realistic.  It wouldn’t occur to her, as it would directly negate something she is trying to implement.

[wasted]

Adding Oaths could certainly keep the Black Ajah from comming back, but since one of Egwene’s goals is to allow AS to retire into the Kin, I think any kind of a statement that requires an AS to never forswear any oaths is just not realistic.  It wouldn’t occur to her, as it would directly negate something she is trying to implement.

 

That I could unterstand. I rather like the idea of unbound AS who live for almost 1000 years.

 

But keep in mind that Egwene was convinced by her predecessor on the importance of the oaths. Don't think she'll ever impelemt retirement into the Kin with forswearing the oaths.

 

Cant know for sure though  ;D

 

[yoniy0]

Mh, if oaths really aren't all that binding and there's no possible way to ever have an oath which is unbreakable, why then didnt Galina Caspan simply employ whatever logic you're applying?

Come on, you HAVE to know I was only referring to promises and oaths (lower case 'o' to indicate they're not made on the OR) made by someone bound by the first Oath.

Of course if you swore to something on the OR itself, you could never get around that Oath before it's removed (at least not if you believed what you're doind stands in contradiction to that Oath).

 

Edit: Regarding the retirement into the Kin deal, am I the only one who thinks Egwene's logic is flawed? I don't think that just releasing yourself from the Oaths gives you back all that time you lost living bound by them. IMHO, it's more like every day you spend bound by the three Oaths (less or more Oaths could theoretically make a difference, I guess) is equal to, let's say, four days of life. If you decide to retire a day before you would have died of old age, you might spend 4 days as a member of the Kin. Big Whoop.

[Dreamwalker]

Adding Oaths could certainly keep the Black Ajah from comming back, but since one of Egwene’s goals is to allow AS to retire into the Kin, I think any kind of a statement that requires an AS to never forswear any oaths is just not realistic.  It wouldn’t occur to her, as it would directly negate something she is trying to implement.

 

That I could unterstand. I rather like the idea of unbound AS who live for almost 1000 years.

 

But keep in mind that Egwene was convinced by her predecessor on the importance of the oaths. Don't think she'll ever impelemt retirement into the Kin with forswearing the oaths.

 

Cant know for sure though  ;D

 

 

Her plan for retirement was that you forswear the oaths when you retire from being AS, just like she won't make the Kin, the Aiel, or the Windfinders take the oaths. She thinks the oaths are important for the image of AS and for the Tower to have legitimacy, but once you are no longer considered an AS because you retired, then you don't need to have the oaths anymore. That way you can live longer.

[thewalrus777]

Adding Oaths could certainly keep the Black Ajah from comming back, but since one of Egwene’s goals is to allow AS to retire into the Kin, I think any kind of a statement that requires an AS to never forswear any oaths is just not realistic.  It wouldn’t occur to her, as it would directly negate something she is trying to implement.

 

That I could unterstand. I rather like the idea of unbound AS who live for almost 1000 years.

 

But keep in mind that Egwene was convinced by her predecessor on the importance of the oaths. Don't think she'll ever impelemt retirement into the Kin with forswearing the oaths.

 

Cant know for sure though  ;D

 

 

Who can say that foreswearing the Oaths gives you extra years to your life. We know that the oaths shorten your life, but does having them removed give them years back, lost from the oaths?