A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

Another similar ter'angreal-type possibility occurred to me - we know at least one more OR still exists and maybe there are more floating around. There may be some "cancellation effect" perhaps, where if you channel spirit into two ORs simultaneously (one is concealed) - the binding effect is negated.

 

Semi and Balty definitely didn't know of a foolproof way to evade the OR.

Neither did Sammy or Graendal, going by their conversations.

That means if such means existed, it was not at all well-known in the AoL itself.

The current AS and other channelers have found a lot of new weaves including "unweaves".

But none has subjected the OR to intensive study. Most don't know or suspect that it cuts lifespan so dramatically.

 

If there is any such means to block/ bypass the OR's effects, (other than fast talking), Messi is perhaps the only one who knows it. True, she was a scholar but she wasn't considered a very good one - she was refused a researcher's post.

 

The ter'angreal in the WT is a definite possibility but she complained earlier at a Chosen meeting that these are warded and under constant guard. So she may have issues with access to those.

She has also acquired a vast store of "dreamweavers" so maybe TAR has something to do with the bypass?

@ed2funy - that's cool. 

 

[ed2funy]

I thought she was refused a post because they didn't agree with her experiments. :-\

 

I know I am. ;)

;D

 

I am gonna settle on the TAR one for now (we have seen Egwene shield someone from within TAR), but I don't know what else there is. Besides a Ter'angreal...

[Luckers]

Cleantoe said:

 

''Verin says there is a Chosen masquerading as an Aes Sedai in the White Tower.

 

There is always a chance she's wrong, but I doubt it.''

 

Yeah, exactly. She COULD be wrong, but, I wouldn't bet against Verin on this one - or on anything, really, especially when it comes to knowledge of something.

 

Fish

 

 

Verin can be wrong, but in this case she is not. Graendal states that Mesaana is masquerading as an Aes Sedai, and that she has been having her watched--which means she knows who, and is not just guessing.

[metaphor]

I think the simplest answer is that she's a Chosen, and not a Black Ajah, and os she had no problem saying that(you have ta actually join the BA, so even a darkfriend AS could truthfully say she's not BA if she had never managed to meet up and join them)

But you could reason that words are neither true nor false, it's phrases that are. True, there is the risk that you believe no word is true and thus you are unable to talk at all, but if you convince yourself that all the words are true you could say anything you want.

 

 

Actually it would be funny to see the AS suddenly become unable to speak as they realize that no word can be considered as true.

[The Fisher King]

Youre absolutely right, metaphoe - IF you are simply concerning yourself with a member of THE CHOSEN getting around The Oaths.

 

However, I agree with Luckers and Others here putting it forth that Mr Sanderson was implying ways around them for NOT only just a Chosen but 'regular' Aes Sedai as well.

 

Which brings us back to Luckers' original question - Full Circle.

 

Nice. :)

 

 

Fish

[metaphor]

well yes, if there is a way for everyone to get around the oaths then it's a different thing.

Mesaana is much more culturally advanced than any Aes Sedai. She could have seen right away that you can't assign categories like true or false to single words, but only to statements. Thus, by saying  " I will not speak any untrue word" she could easily lie and say whatever she wants, since there are no untrue words.

I'd be surprised that no one in 3000 years had reached the same conclusion, not even some of the White Ajah who seem to have advanced enough mathematic knowledge to calculate how much the Dark One is touching the worlds.

[Morsmordre]

Somebody asked if Compulsion is stronger than an Oath. I think it is. Reasons? Take a look at the places where people describe how they feel when they are under Compulsion. Take a look at the chapter in FoH where Liandrin tries to Compel Moghedien but instead Moghedien Compels her. If somebody believes deep in their heart that what they say is true, it is. Isn't that one of the theories about Mesaana going around the Oath Rod? That she believes she is not a Darkfriend or a Black Ajah - she is a Chosen.

However, the idea of Compelling the Sister she is representing to be (or any other Sister) looks like a risk to me. If she had sent the Sister she is representing to be, this Sister would have acted strange and somebody would have noticed. Especially Egweene, as she knows that she's looking for something suspicious.

However Mesaana got past the Oath Rod, it wasn't through the Power, at least to me. No matter how much we try to evade it and invent other things to get past it, I think it is the most obvious question - that she believes not to be a DF or a BA. Asmodean said to Rand that the Oaths had thousands of flaws but, personally, I think the answer is the most obvious.

 

[The Fisher King]

Somebody asked if Compulsion is stronger than an Oath.

 

That was ME lol!! And I agree with your reasons - you explained them better than i could have.

 

 

Fish

[slimmy]

I can think of a number of ways to get around the oath rod.      In particular to swear what you say is true, then state you are not a darkfriend.

 

1. The most obvious being tricking others to think you have sworn on the rod when in fact you did not (either with illusion or compulsion).

 

2. Mesaana can really believe she is not a darkfiend.    I think a clue to this is given in TDR chapter 20 – Visitations.    Here Mat asks Lanfear (in the form of Selene) if she is a darkfriend.  She answers (paraphrased) No – she is not a flowerer of Ishamael/Ba’alzamon.  My speculations is that the darkfriend community in the 3rd age has been setup by Ishamael during is periods of freedom over the ages.  As Mesaana is not part of this (she is from the old order) she can truthfully answer that she is not a darkfriend.

 

If she does use the second approach (or something similar) then she is actually stuck with the three oaths.  Obviously she would not want to – so it makes sense that she will unswear ASAP.  We know that only sitters have access to this ter'angreal.  As such I think this strengthens the likelihood that she is a sitter.

[Charlz Fel]

Somebody asked if Compulsion is stronger than an Oath. I think it is. Reasons? Take a look at the places where people describe how they feel when they are under Compulsion. Take a look at the chapter in FoH where Liandrin tries to Compel Moghedien but instead Moghedien Compels her. If somebody believes deep in their heart that what they say is true, it is. Isn't that one of the theories about Mesaana going around the Oath Rod? That she believes she is not a Darkfriend or a Black Ajah - she is a Chosen.

However, the idea of Compelling the Sister she is representing to be (or any other Sister) looks like a risk to me. If she had sent the Sister she is representing to be, this Sister would have acted strange and somebody would have noticed. Especially Egweene, as she knows that she's looking for something suspicious.

However Mesaana got past the Oath Rod, it wasn't through the Power, at least to me. No matter how much we try to evade it and invent other things to get past it, I think it is the most obvious question - that she believes not to be a DF or a BA. Asmodean said to Rand that the Oaths had thousands of flaws but, personally, I think the answer is the most obvious.

 

 

Within its narrow domain of controlling physical actions (including speech), the Oath Rod is absolute.  I very much doubt that you could Compel an Aes Sedai to lie or otherwise violate any Oath she had sworn; if you tried to do this directly, the best you could produce would be an overwhelming urge/desire to violate the Oath.  However, Compulsion is much more flexible than Oaths.  Unlike the Oath Rod, Compulsion can be used to change someone's beliefs, so you could, theoretically, Compel a BA Aes Sedai to forget she's a Darkfriend.  Then, she could pass the Oath Rod test, since she believes she is telling the truth in saying "I am not a Darkfriend."  However, I imagine the required level of Compulsion to make someone forget something so far-reaching would be quite damaging to the subject.

[yoniy0]

First of all, Charlz Fel, I agree with everything you said.

 

Now:

If she does use the second approach (or something similar) then she is actually stuck with the three oaths.  Obviously she would not want to – so it makes sense that she will unswear ASAP.  We know that only sitters have access to this ter'angreal.  As such I think this strengthens the likelihood that she is a sitter.

That's a good argument. I do think that she could find other means to do that, however, be it low-order Compulsion on one of the Sitters (like what Moghedien did to Elayne and Nynaeve), or simply acquiring another OR like Sammael was able to do.

 

I have one more loony idea. I don't actually believe it myself. As I said before, I'm rooting for the "really not a DF/saying she's not BA" theory, and I don't think BS's words imply anything else.

But, did we ever see how the OR is used to remove an Oath? IIRC, every time that we get to that part with the BA hunters/Egwene's efforts in tGS, the narrator just say they 'remove' the Oath, then swear again. Perhaps, it's just a matter of swearing again the exact Oath (i.e. an odd number of exact vows bind you, an even number releases you). If so, she could prepare in advance by taking the Oaths, then publicly take them again (effectively releasing herself from them) and claim whatever the hell she wants.

[Shmuel Goldberg]

What about, say a mask of mirrors or some kind of illusion? The AS has to hold the oath rod for it to work. What if Mesaana makes a 'hand' with an inverted weave which 'holds' the rod, but actually never touches it while saying the words? Or maybe she's holding the rod, but not actually saying the words (it's an illusion much like a recording).

 

The point I'm making is the following: when swearing on the rod, usually, a different AS channels spirit into the rod, not the one taking the oath. Most likely because it's a punitive measure and the person was shielded anyway. But maybe it was also to avoid a simple trick with illusion to get around the oath.

[ed2funy]

To yoniy0: if iirc, they say 'I forsake all Oaths' or some such, and then reawear. I believe we have  POV of someone (not sure who) swearing the Oaths again and that they feel the tighness of the Oath settling into their skin.

I don't think odd and even counts matter.

 

To the guy before me (if no one took the spot, sorry but I am on my phone), that clould be possible, but she would have to have the weave inverted and ready. Yes that is possible, but would she be able to control it?

We have only seen the MoM once like that from Moiraine.

[Icefyre]

I'm probably completely wrong on this, but the idea occurred to me that if she were able to unbind herself from the oaths of the Black Ajah, in TAR, possibly or, possible as well, never took them, being a Forsaken, would she be able to appear to be releasing the oaths, but make some silent oath, then when appearing to take the oaths, actually unbind them, allowing the appearance of having told the truth, while actually lying.  There are probably holes in this, I'm not sure if the weaves are basically the same, just to activate the ter'angreal, but not able to tell what exactly you do with it.  In any case there are probably enough holes to drive a truck through, I just haven't noticed as I haven't re-read the series in a while.

[ed2funy]

She could, if she knew it (which I doubt), invert the weave that captures words (from the Aiel sister ceremony), and release the words so that she doesn't actually say them.

And at the same time capture the words saying something else.

But of course, people would see her lips moving different.

:-\

[Luckers]

She could, if she knew it (which I doubt), invert the weave that captures words (from the Aiel sister ceremony), and release the words so that she doesn't actually say them.

And at the same time capture the words saying something else.

But of course, people would see her lips moving different.

:-\

 

That's a really interesting thought. We know the Age of Legenders knew ways of recording sound. The Aiel show it can be effective...

 

Interesting.

[ed2funy]

:o

Luckers took interest?

*dances a jig*

:D :P

[Luckers]

Lol. I had a weak moment.  :P

 

I gotta say the reason I like my original idea is that it presents no risk to Mesaana. Mesaana is a bit of a coward, I don't see her risking being exposed in a situation where Aes Sedai (children or not) are ready to overwhelm her. There have been several very clever ideas in this thread, but they all hold the chance of failure.

 

Having the Aes Sedai she replaced take the Oath both allows the woman to swear herself as not a Darkfriend, and presents no risk to Mesaana. She simply steps back in once the swearing is done.

[ed2funy]

That would be a complicated though. :-\

 

That would be "Go take the Oaths, swear you are not a DF, and come back here".

But what if someone stopped to talk to her, or tried to come into her room with her?

 

[Luckers]

That would be a complicated though. :-\

 

That would be "Go take the Oaths, swear you are not a DF, and come back here".

But what if someone stopped to talk to her, or tried to come into her room with her?

 

 

It seems likely Mesaana would have chosen someone who didn't have many friends to begin with. From there all she needed to say was 'Go take the Oaths, swear you are not a darkfriends. Act normal and don't give anything away by action or gesture'.

 

Even if someone did talk to her, the attack on the Tower and learning of the Black Ajah is enough to explain away any weird behaviour, and who would try and follow her back to her rooms? That would be an invasion of privacy, and that is strictly forbidden by custom.

[ed2funy]

"or omission"

Just saying...you forgot that. :P

 

If she has not very many friends, she still has people in her Ajah. We have seen many sisters going all crazy under Elaida (sounds wrong :P), and some may not be over their normal behavior.

 

You get me?

[Dakota]

Here's a thought, that might lead Messy, or even some other Black Ajahs, to escape the purge.

 

At one point, Egwyne made a speech about how it was the three oaths that -made- them Aes Sedai, rather than just women who could channel mucking about the affairs of the world, that the three oaths was what made them who they are.

 

It could also be argued that the three BA oaths were what -made- them Black Ajah.

 

A black sister forswears all her oaths and reswears the normal oaths, namely the one to speak no word that is not true.

 

"I am not Black Ajah" she says, while thinking to herself that she indeed isn't Black Ajah at that very moment because she was not sworn to the Black Ajah oaths.

 

It depends on if they were made to swear "I am not a Darkfriend" or just "I am not Black Ajah" if something like this would fly or not.  The second could have definately worked for Messy if that's all she said, since she wasn't a member of the Black Ajah, or any ajah for that matter.

 

Thoughts?  And forgive me if this has been suggested already and I didn't catch it.

[ed2funy]

OOOOO...he made a good point.

[Luckers]

He does indeed. The issue is simply that Brandon seems to be directing us at ways to evade the power of the Oath Rod, not mental gymnastics around them.

 

 

[yoniy0]

Here's a thought, that might lead Messy, or even some other Black Ajahs, to escape the purge.

 

At one point, Egwyne made a speech about how it was the three oaths that -made- them Aes Sedai, rather than just women who could channel mucking about the affairs of the world, that the three oaths was what made them who they are.

 

It could also be argued that the three BA oaths were what -made- them Black Ajah.

 

A black sister forswears all her oaths and reswears the normal oaths, namely the one to speak no word that is not true.

 

"I am not Black Ajah" she says, while thinking to herself that she indeed isn't Black Ajah at that very moment because she was not sworn to the Black Ajah oaths.

 

It depends on if they were made to swear "I am not a Darkfriend" or just "I am not Black Ajah" if something like this would fly or not.  The second could have definately worked for Messy if that's all she said, since she wasn't a member of the Black Ajah, or any ajah for that matter.

 

Thoughts?  And forgive me if this has been suggested already and I didn't catch it.

 

Well, actually it has been sggested by several people. I don't see a problem with that, she is in fact NOT Black Ajah as I see things (you have to be AS first - she no longer is, I believe - and then you have to be admitted/recruited to it, which of course she wasn't), but Luckers was suggesting what BS said implies she didn't get around the Oath with something as mundane as this. BTW, as I said before, I don't necessarily agree with that.