The Body Swap Theory - Updated. (Spoilers)

[MauricXe]

I kind of like it more to think that Rand is going to burn himself from the OP by collecting all of it (all that exists) and smashing the DO with it...

 

The OP has no limit, grabbing all of it is impossible.

[Morsmordre]

I kind of like it more to think that Rand is going to burn himself from the OP by collecting all of it (all that exists) and smashing the DO with it...

 

The OP has no limit, grabbing all of it is impossible.

 

Then Rand is screwed :)

[Knobs Mahoney]

In order for Rand to have cleansed Saidin, he would have had to channel then entire male half of the source. The taint was in the entire "well" of Saidin, so in order to remove the entire taint, the entire amount of Saidin available would have had to be cleansed via Shadar Logoth...so it isn't impossible to channel the entire male half of the True Source.

[Thews Lerin]

I was just reading Luckers' thoughts on Rand's nausea issue and the relationship to Moridin. He quotes KoD and the last quoted lines say "Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair."

Until I re-read that, I was not a fan of the "Body Swap" theory.

But that makes it seem plausible.

IIRC, the "move a hair in any direction" idea is mentioned again in TGS.

I guess we'll all have to RAFO.

 

On the subject of Rand dying and living again - What if Rand gets killed (doesn't matter by whom) and then the person who killed him is balefired shortly thereafter? This would bring him back. I guess the leading authorities (namely Luckers) see that as what happened to Mat, and that Rand's prophecy is different (i.e. dying whilst still living). So perhaps I'm way off there.

[MauricXe]

In order for Rand to have cleansed Saidin, he would have had to channel then entire male half of the source. The taint was in the entire "well" of Saidin, so in order to remove the entire taint, the entire amount of Saidin available would have had to be cleansed via Shadar Logoth...so it isn't impossible to channel the entire male half of the True Source.

 

He did not grab the entire source.

 

From http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/ FAQ section, you can go to this URL:

 

http://www.linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.16_taint-cleansing.html

 

 

Rand, using untainted saidar, formed a hollow tube, with one end touching the male half of the True Source and the other end touching Shadar Logoth. The weave did not form as he expected it to, but it worked as he intended.

 

He forced saidin through the pipe of saidar, pumping the tainted Power into Shadar Logoth. He did not, as some people thought, send all of saidin through SL, because that's impossible. What he seems to have done is pump saidin through the conduit until he felt the taint layered on top of it shift, and begin flowing into SL of its own accord, forming that huge black dome. Then he just had to hang on until all the taint went through into SL, and then collapse the conduit.

 

Basically it was a siphoning effect. Evan "Skwid" Langlinais explains: "The taint being the evil of The DO, and SL being an evil which was created to fight the DO's evil, the two attract one another like opposite magnetic polarities, and cancel one another out in the end. To get some of the taint into SL, Rand had to channel an immense amount of saidin, but this was still miniscule compared to the infinite quantity of saidin contained in the True Source. Once a sufficient quantity of taint was dumped into SL, SL consumed it at a rate greater than that of which Rand was dumping saidin into SL, and the taint was pulled along like it was being siphoned off the top."

 

 

And:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/true_source/op.html

 

The True Source cannot be used up just as a river cannot be used up by a mill wheel. (TEotW,Ch12)

 

[WolfDragonFox]

Well let me start by saying that for the most part I agree with Luckers' initial post on the theory with some additions.

 

First my main agreement point is that constantly Nynaeve reminds us of her insistence on finding a way to Heal everything except death, actual death, which cannot be healed, but I do believe that Nynaeve will find the way that the DO does soul transfer.  IMO Rand will find no choice but to "sheath the sword since both he and Moridin will be too taxed from channeling to use it any more so they will go to metal on metal Rand using Justice.  Due to his triple thick Warder bond he won't die instantly from this move but he will mortally wound and incapacitate Moridin.  Ny will do the soul transfer and presto Moridin's body wakes up as Rand.

 

This is where IMO Perrin will be needed for the second time.  I think that souls are in a special part of TAR and Perrin and Egwene will be the only ones capable of getting a dead rand soul back.  The important thing now is that Alivia will help Rand die before Moridin, she is the oldest (Ex)damane we know and prolly knows lots of crazy things we haven't seen her use yet.  So she will make rand in that almost dead state and hold him there while Ny gets ready to transfer.  So i think either we will see Egwene go get Rand and Perrin will hunt down Ishy's pesky soul and bring them to Ny who will transfer Moridin to Rand and Alivia will kill him, then Rand to Moridin and Nynaeve will heal him back to good since the soul will still be alive and in a live body too, the Warder bond will not break so he will have that extra strength to survive the process.  I disagree with Mat saving Rand because what 1/2 is he giving up there, none so this prophesy still will happen in Ghenji IMO. 

 

Thats my jumbled and quickly written way of looking at it, if it is confusing its cuz I was in a hurry and had the words in my head and wanted to get them out before I forgot how I wanted to say this....thanks for understanding and let me know what you think.

[Sentinel78]

I agree with Luckers 100%.  I only started checking/posting on the forums a few months ago but started to think about the body-swap after reading Book 8, and actually thought I'd be the only one who thought of this.  Presumptuous, I know.

 

The only additional items I'll add to Lucker's excellent synopsis are:

 

(1) Draghkar are another examples of souls migrating; i.e., they consume the soul first, and life second.

(2) While not exactly evidence, the physical similarities between Rand/Moridin, the fact that Moridin essentially has an undamaged body (except for saa?) vs. Rand's very damaged body, and the possibility that Moridin's soul may not be as firmly entrenched in his body as a soul that has not undergone transmigration lends further support to the body-swap theory.

(3) It is very unlikely the Dark One will anticipate a body-swap.  After the swap, Rand (as Moridin) may be granted unfettered access to the Bore by the Dark One which may be the edge he needs to beat the Dark One.  Otherwise, there's little chance the Dark One's direct influence won't be able to stop an approach by Rand into the Pit of Doom, where he allegedly has to go to free men from the Shadow.

[cleantoe]

Since as far as we know only the DO can transmigrate souls, do you guys think that Rand or Alivia or someone will have to use the TP to do it?

[cleantoe]

Also, it seems Rand's connection to Moridin only intensifies when he's under great stress.

 

Do you guys think that in order to establish a full on link to swap bodies that Alivia will basically torture Rand to death?

[ed2funy]

No..

Firstly, I don't think it will happen (I am ready to be wrong though), but I think if someone was going to do it intentionally, then it would be Rand.

 

He can channel the TP...

No one else...

 

I think, if it happens, it will happen when they are fighting.

[Luckers]

Since as far as we know only the DO can transmigrate souls, do you guys think that Rand or Alivia or someone will have to use the TP to do it?

 

From the original post.

 

One of the commonly raised objections/questions about the Body Swap is the question of the basis for suggesting a swap to even be possible. They point out that only the Dark One's been seen doing that sort of things, and ask what basis there is to suggest Rand and Moridin could even swap intentionally, much less accidentally without effort. The reply to that is that it’s a misconception to think the Dark One is the only one playing with souls. In fact Soul Manipulation is relatively common within the series. Here, off the top of my head.

 

1. Mordeth's soul survives his body’s death and inserts itself into Fain's body--and should have been able to oust Fain except for the Dark One's taint in him.

2. Dreamwalkers/Wolves--from when Perrin stayed in the Dream too long when hunting Faile we know that Dreamwalkers souls actually leave their body to enter TAR. As do Wolves when they sleep or die.

3. Ter’angreal--the above obviously means that the dream ter'angreal can pull peoples souls out of their bodies. Also the hedgehog that captured Faile captured her soul and pulled it almost all the way out of her body.

4. Machin Shin devours soul’s whole.

 

Of course none of these are specifically what we're suggesting here, they simply serve to establish that the sort of soul manipulation and transferral were talking about is not out of the norm for the Wheel of Time. They cumulatively establish precedent for the general art of Soul Transferral.

 

 

 

[ed2funy]

I thought you were going to sleep....

 

o.0

[cleantoe]

@luckers:

 

Thanks. I read the original post awhile ago but forgot about it.

 

@ed2funy:

 

I really hope to God this doesn't happen. Swapping bodies will be stupid mainly for one reason. Because RJ/BS have this dreamy vision of relationships and Rand's harem will still love him in his new body.

 

In real life, if someone swaps bodies, I'm sorry, but they are going to freak the hell out and take off. If this happens, then I will be happy to see a body swap as long as there is SOME realism in the consequences.

 

I think they need to hire George RR Martin to write the last book. ;)

[Luckers]

I thought you were going to sleep....

 

o.0

 

Maybe I am asleep. Maybe, even unconcious, my mind permeates the interweb and controls its ebb and flow.

[ed2funy]

lmao....

 

Sure Luckers...

 

*Calls Asylum*

[cleantoe]

I thought you were going to sleep....

 

o.0

 

Maybe I am asleep. Maybe, even unconcious, my mind permeates the interweb and controls its ebb and flow.

 

Luckers is a Dreamer.

[thewalrus777]

@luckers:

 

Thanks. I read the original post awhile ago but forgot about it.

 

@ed2funy:

 

I really hope to God this doesn't happen. Swapping bodies will be stupid mainly for one reason. Because RJ/BS have this dreamy vision of relationships and Rand's harem will still love him in his new body.

 

In real life, if someone swaps bodies, I'm sorry, but they are going to freak the hell out and take off. If this happens, then I will be happy to see a body swap as long as there is SOME realism in the consequences.

 

I think they need to hire George RR Martin to write the last book. ;)

 

 

Really?  If George R.R. Martin were to write the last books, than the main characters wouldn't even survive to be at TG. Matter of fact, he would only take a paragraph to kill each one of them off.

 

 

"Perrin was riding at the head of the column of Two Rivers men, when suddenly an arrow out of nowhere struck him dead in the head." The End. That was the only thing i absolutely HATED about his writing.

[cleantoe]

@luckers:

 

Thanks. I read the original post awhile ago but forgot about it.

 

@ed2funy:

 

I really hope to God this doesn't happen. Swapping bodies will be stupid mainly for one reason. Because RJ/BS have this dreamy vision of relationships and Rand's harem will still love him in his new body.

 

In real life, if someone swaps bodies, I'm sorry, but they are going to freak the hell out and take off. If this happens, then I will be happy to see a body swap as long as there is SOME realism in the consequences.

 

I think they need to hire George RR Martin to write the last book. ;)

 

 

Really?  If George R.R. Martin were to write the last books, than the main characters wouldn't even survive to be at TG. Matter of fact, he would only take a paragraph to kill each one of them off.

 

 

"Perrin was riding at the head of the column of Two Rivers men, when suddenly an arrow out of nowhere struck him dead in the head." The End. That was the only thing i absolutely HATED about his writing.

 

LOL

 

I know. Just when you really start to like someone, GRRM will kill that person off, and the people you hate survive the whole time.

 

But aside from the mystical aspects of the book, I find it to be much more realistic when it comes to relationships, power, revenge...etc

 

I mean it's dumb that in the WoT ALL the major good guys have survived. It's so lame. Let's see some major good guys die in the next book, like Min, Thom and Egwene! Actually, I hope Min survives because I don't want to read an entire book about Rand whining about his stupid list.

[MauricXe]

@luckers:

 

Thanks. I read the original post awhile ago but forgot about it.

 

@ed2funy:

 

I really hope to God this doesn't happen. Swapping bodies will be stupid mainly for one reason. Because RJ/BS have this dreamy vision of relationships and Rand's harem will still love him in his new body.

 

In real life, if someone swaps bodies, I'm sorry, but they are going to freak the hell out and take off. If this happens, then I will be happy to see a body swap as long as there is SOME realism in the consequences.

 

I think they need to hire George RR Martin to write the last book. ;)

 

second

[lillcheese]

I mean it's dumb that in the WoT ALL the major good guys have survived. It's so lame.

 

Most of the bad guys don't die/stay dead either.  At least there is symmetry.

[Bastor]

Hmm....I think that the "to have a chance of living you must die" prophecy has already been shown and done in Veins of Gold. For him to have a chance to live a shot at victory he must accept LTT and use his plan and not his own (the CK that is destined to fail) that means that Rand must accept that he and LTT are one and in a way die so they can both live. Something that is sort of proven when he brakes the CK. He already knows of LTTs plan which is now his own.

 

Moridin's body is very corrupt and has little life time left in it IMHO since using the TP is said to decrease your life substantially....so why would Rand take a corrupt by the TP body that will anyway die soon....

[WolfTwins]

Moridin's body is very corrupt and has little life time left in it IMHO since using the TP is said to decrease your life substantially....so why would Rand take a corrupt by the TP body that will anyway die soon....

Is not the matter what Rand want, the DO is traying from the beginnig to attract Rand to his side. I think that in DO vision the Lord of Chaos shall be Rand. Maybe Moridin will tray to merge with Rand so they become the Lord of Chaos.

[Knobs Mahoney]

Ixnay on the GRRM writing the WoT. If I wanted all of my characters to just die willy-nilly, I'd re-read Raymond Feist. Nothing like a main character dying of a broken hip from falling...wtf. Sorcerers can't fix a broken hip? Why be a sorcerer if you're never going to cast a spell.

 

It's like Gandalf. All through LOTR he just walks around all "Fear me, I R WIZARD", but he never casts a single spell that I can remember. Lame.

[thewalrus777]

Ixnay on the GRRM writing the WoT. If I wanted all of my characters to just die willy-nilly, I'd re-read Raymond Feist. Nothing like a main character dying of a broken hip from falling...wtf. Sorcerers can't fix a broken hip? Why be a sorcerer if you're never going to cast a spell.

 

It's like Gandalf. All through LOTR he just walks around all "Fear me, I R WIZARD", but he never casts a single spell that I can remember. Lame.

 

Hey man, there's nothing like seeing what you think is the Main character, alive one sentence and then dead the next. It's a complete breath of fresh FU from the author. Eddard was gonna be a badass, but wasn't even in the books for atleast 2-3 chapters. LAME INDEED.

 

And yes Gandalf was kinda lame in the movies. Not in the books, but definitely the movies.

[WolfDragonFox]

Ganalf was not lame, and this isnt really the place for that anyway but he was kicking Orc tail with Glamdring and his staff and he threw magic in when necessary.  He was trying to lead in the age of men because he knew the other beings of the world were withdrawing to the undying lands.  If he just blasted everyone with fireballs the world of men wouldn't have earned it for themselves and that was kind of the point.  Representatives from all the races help bring about the dominion of mankind.  The final piece to that transition ends when the last of the 9 companions sets sail to the Gray Havens.

 

Went on with that a little more than intended but I tend to do so very often...lol.