The Luckers Official tGS Review (Full of Spoilers and Hubris)

[Luckers]

Since I'm going mad in creating threads today I decided it was time to abuse my power and create one for myself--though actually people have asked, probably because of that 'A Memory of Light--the Plot' prediction thread I wrote. I avoided writing a review when the book came out because I like to give myself time to adjust, then do a re-read, before I make up my mind. I'm glad I did, because things did change between the first and second read. But here we go.

 

I hope people enjoy this, if not ignore it with glee!

 

General Comments

 

I really loved this book. Rand's madness and the White Tower division/Seanchan attack were probably the two plot-lines I've been wanting to see since... well, about the release of Winter's Heart. So a long time.

 

And it was brilliantly handled. The Seanchan attack for instance--I argued long and hard that the Seanchan were going to conquer the Tower and entrench themselves because I believed that something needed to break the Aes Sedai arrogance of their position within it--someone, in effect, needed to shatter the image of the Tower. Losing it to the Seanchan was my answer. Simply raiding in and stealing a few Aes Sedai, I claimed, would not be enough.

 

Boy was I wrong. The imagery of giant holes being blown in the Tower itself, of to'raken cralling accross its sides like insects on a corpse, was just brilliant. In fact Egwene's scene fighting back is probably one of the most iconic scene in the series. Same goes for Rand on top of Dragonmount wrestling with his demons, a ray of sunshine breaking the clouds for the first time in weeks to halo his victory. Those two scenes are two of my favourite scenes in the series, up there with the Cleansing, Dumai's Wells and Moiraine's 'death'.

 

There was, in fact, not a single story-line I disliked--oh, there were aspects of story-lines I had problems with, but no plot did I dislike. And that has happened in the past--Nynaeve and Elayne's trip to Salidar from Tarabon, for instance. (This by the way is where the second read comes in, because in my first I disliked Perrin's storyline. I'll cover why, and why that changed, later).

 

Writing Style

 

I suppose it is inevitable that people will compare RJ and Brandon's writing styles, but I didn't have a problem with the difference. I know Brandon said that he wasn't going to emmulate RJ's style, and I agreed with that point--but to a certain degree I think he did try to match RJ--in description of clothing, for instance. This was good, and I can see why he wouldn't want to speak of it--it would just increase the likelihood of comparisons being made--but to my mind he did an admirable job of walking the fine line between matching the style of the previous books so as not to make for a jarring change, and in retaining his own style, thereby maintaining the integrity (and quality) of the writing.

 

My only problem with the writing is that Brandon too often had characters think on their reasons for doing something--and more than just think on it, link that reasoning to their past actions or experiences. This, by the way, is something of a good point disguised as a negative point. What it shows is that Brandon has put considerable effort into the study of the characters and their history to see how that history informs their current actions and decisions. And that is a very, very good thing.

 

But in having them relay it so often I feel he's showing insecurity--that he is worried we will judge him on characters decisions, blame him for 'changing the character'. It's understandable under the circumstances--and WoT fans certainly are a rabid and scary bunch--but I do think he needs to tone it down. For one thing it breaks the cardinal rule of 'show, don't tell'. By having the characters rationalize their actions with specific references to past experience he gives the impression that he is appealing to the older books for legitimization.

 

He can't do that. Oh it's reasonable, even decent, that he is concerned about this--and it is a good thing that he is making the effort to ensure his characters ARE on line with the characters in the older books, but he can't show us. It's too much of a magician revealing his tricks. At this stage he needs to commit fully to the book. Not in the sense of putting in his full effort--it's clear he already is, and succeeding--no, in the sense that he needs to have to confidence to say (to himself) 'this is a Wheel of Time book. I wrote it, but it is not fan fiction. It is book twelve.'

 

These small moments, though they come from a good place, and reveal that Brandon is putting in all the care and effort that we could possibly hope for, are jarring, and break the reader out of the story.

 

The Characters

 

Rand

 

Rand's portrayal was solid. And that must have been difficult--Getting into Rand's head and staying there as he at first grows harder, then begins to soften, then turns to cuendillar, then finally breaks... it cannot have been easy. Yet Brandon pulled it off perfectly. The subtle consistancy of Rand's wavering was perfect, and I absolutely loved 'cuendillar Rand'. Indeed, I'd been getting worried in KoD with the question of how possibly Rand could escalate further without becoming such a raving loon (or a caricature) that no one could even pretend to follow him, Dragon Reborn or no. But Brandon got it. I cannot wait to see Rand's post-laugh personality. I've been waiting for years to see 'cool Rand' and thanks to tGS I have every confidence that it will be as awesome as I imagine. Time for Rand to be a hero again, Wooo!

 

But poor Hurin. I hope Agelmar thought to give him a hug when he got back to the borderlanders!

 

Egwene

 

I know alot of people have a problem with Egwene as a character. She is very sure of herself, and can be exacting in her judgements of people, but she is also fair. Take for instance her judgement of Rand for allowing Taim to bond Asha'men. I know alot of posters had issues with that. She judges him for something he had no role in, and attempted to repair when he did learn of it--because it was done by his servants.

 

People get up in arms about how unfair that it--but the fact is what she is judging is not him letting Aes Sedai be bonded, but the failure of his leadership that allowed it to happen. And she applies that same stricture to herself when Siuan 'rescued' her, and as harshly. Egwene is not unreasonable--she thinks and rethinks her positions constantly--she's just unwilling to bend in the judgements that result from that. And that is what a leader must be. People complain that she doesn't give Rand the respect he's due, but its not so much that she is dismissing him, just holding him up to the same standards she holds herself. And yes, she is prejudiced towards what should and should not be done to Aes Sedai--but hey, she's Amyrlin. If she weren't then she doesn't deserve the job. And that doesn't go back to that old sense of Aes Sedai manifest destiny, it's just simple--she should believe in what she is doing.

 

That, I think, is the true core of Egwene's arc in this book. She is stepping into the position where no one restrains her power--where before it was the Hall trying to use her as a puppet, or Elaida trying to squash her down. Where the Wise Ones were teaching her, or Nynaeve was trying to mother her--in this book she is stepping past the last of those restrictions. And learning to place restrictions on herself. She doesn't always get it right, but she is getting there.

 

All together I thought her protrayal was perhaps even more nuanced than Rand's and very well pulled off.

 

Fortuona

 

In general I loved her. The way she dealt with Beslan was great, and her strength, the strength she displays in facing Rand, is one of the things I love about her character. Also it neatly set up the irony of her refusing to name herself Empress in order to meet Rand as an equal. I wonder if she will ever realise that naming herself the Nine Moons was what opened her to being bound to serve Rand.

 

I will say, though, that there was something of a... reversion... about her character. In KoD she makes clear realisations about Mat's true character, but in the meeting with Rand she seems surprised to come to those realisations again. It seemed to me a convenient way to show that Tuon was confused by her growing love for Mat. I mean it'd make sense, realising his good qualities and all that--except she did it last book. Brandon needed to continue from that basis, not reset it.

 

Mat

 

What can I say. Didn't love him. Don't get me wrong, I know what Brandon said about him being offbalance due to his marriage, his worry for Tuon, and the fact that she left--but I still don't buy it. The humour was not the humour of an 'off-step Mat'. It was banter. Word play. One poster remarked that Mat was a rogue, not a jester, and thats true even of an off-beat rogue. And that elaborate plan for finding the woman in Trustair...

 

So what's the plus side in all this? It's that Mat was still there--the inner core, that solidity that defines Mat's nature, can be seen in the Gathering Storm. Brandon knows Mat. He's got him there. He just needs to dust him off a bit better.

 

Perrin

 

Perrin was the big change for me in the re-read. My first read I was so hell-bent on what happened next that Perrin's chapters seemed distractions. Nothing important happened, so why weren't they left for the next book? The second re-read reveals some important things about what's going on in Perrin's head. Of his struggle to figure himself out post-Malden but before Tarmon Gai'don. Given the hints we have about what comes next for Perrin he needs this time, and we need to see him taking this time.

 

So, following my re-read I believe these chapters were not only necessary, but perfect. There were some weird jarring though with revelations about what Perrin was up to from Rand and Tam. Brandon may have been better served to simply leave out references to Morgase and Galad--but that's just personal opinion.

 

Aviendha and the Aiel

 

Not much to say except that given he stated he struggled with the Aiel, I thought Brandon got their voices nicely. Especially Aviendha, which I know some of you disagree with. I just thought her struggle, and the individuation of her voice, were very strong given she's been something of a side-line character (for one of the harem). *shrug*

 

Sorilea too I thought was well done--especially consider...

 

Cadsuane

 

Did not love her either. I won't speak much on her, but in my opinion she lost a great deal of the subtlety and integrity--not to meantion craftiness--that informed everything she does. Before when she bullied, she was a subtle and skillful bully. That's why so many hate her, because she was good at what she did. The Cadsuane of tGS was just blunt. It was dissapointing.

 

And just to be clear, this is not me upset that she failed, or was called out by Tam, this was me upset that she had to get dumbed down in order for either to happen. A scene that should have been epic--Tam's greatest moment--instead was just average.

 

Unlike Mat there's no silver lining to this one. Brandon's been clear about his feelings towards Cadsuane, and I doubt that will change. I'll just have to suck it up, I guess.  :)

 

Verin

 

Well Caddy was my unpleasent and ungrateful whinge at a man whose done so much for the WoT community, so I left the lovely lady Verin to follow.

 

It was so frickan epic! I loved her. That moment at the end when she was trying to assure Egwene that her soul was Brown--that is possibly the only truly honest thing she does in the series, but it so underpins everything that is great about her character. It was in fact a bit heartbreaking.

 

Egwene was right, her soul truly was of the most pure white, and I hope she gets added to the heroes for her sacrifice.

 

Rest in peace Verin. You will be missed!

 

Gawyn

 

He was enjoyably thick headed without being made into a caricature (which, by the way, kudos to Brandon. His whiny self-absorbed personality practically screams that he should be a cardboard cut out, but Brandon managed to avoid that completely). His wavering was some of the best writing in the book--for all that he's an annoying character.

 

Elaida

 

I loved her. Particularily how she managed to pull herself back at times and show some of her old cunning. Beyond that... Suffa will be a good damane. ;D

 

Although I would have liked to see her leashed. That might have been a restriction in RJ's notes though. Still maybe we'll see it in a flashback, like when Moghedian got free from Egwene.

 

Nah, I might take that back. I really think Elaida needs to be out of the story. I wouldn't mind seeing Suffa kneeling in the background at some stage, but as a destinct and active character I think Elaida needs to go. *shrug*

 

Side Characters

 

At times several of the side characters turn into caricatures and sounding boards for the main characters, which I think Brandon needs to watch. Joline with Mat, for instance--her sudden stupidity about horse travel when she's lived her entire life in a world that uses horses to travel, and thus should have a fair understanding of the logistics--seemed only to exist to provide fodder for Mat to reply to.

 

Flinn does this for Rand too, with his 'but my Lord Dragon, your completely free!' and several Aes Sedai do it for Egwene at various stages throughout the book (Adelorna's comment after Egwene saves her pops most strongly to mind). It's not a huge deal--in fact a lot of them I only noticed when doing my detailed re-read--but it did distract.

 

Also, that being said, several side characters becomes so much stronger in this book. Beslan for instance. Tylee. And let's forget Tam. Damn! (see what I did there?)

 

Conclusions

 

I thought this was a really solid addition to the series with some of the most amazing moments from the entire series within it. In particular I was happy to be proven wrong in several of my expectations, and INSANELY glad that there were surprises that I didn't even have the slightest idea were coming. My problems were few, and usually nitpicky--which says something about the quality of the book in itself.

 

Thank you Brandon. Keep up the good work!

[Luckers]

Aww. No one cares what I think. *hangs head and wanders away*

 

[ed2funy]

I care....

*doesn't lie very well*

 

:D

 

I like all the book, all the characters.....

I don't critique, i submerge and become....

:)

 

Though, Avi seemed a little off...Stilled liked her, but her line of thought didn't seem exactly straight on...

[USURP888]

I agree with you about Fortuona's strength when she confronted Rand. I read a poster brushing off that confrontation by saying that it's just part of the pattern and the prophecies that made her say no. That's like saying everything everybody did in the whole series isn't attributable to each of the character's strength but was pre-destined.

 

I disagree though about fortuona's reversion as far as her realization on her feelings about Mat. In KOD, she's come to see her more than 'TOY', but a general and a man of honor, someone to respect..but in KOD she made it clear that she married Mat not out of love but out of duty to the empire. For her to finally admit to herself she misses Mat is a big step in finally admitting that maybe she indeed has fallen in love with him.

 

I agree with you regarding Mat, the way he was written in TGS seemed wrong. I loved the chapters about him yes, I laughed at the absurdity of the stories he's written but it all feels wrong somehow. Mat is my favorite character in the whole series and I hope Brandon Sanderson gives us back the "rogue" Mat and not the "chatty wise cracking" Mat.

 

I have to say the best chapters were about Egwene, her rise to power and the way she handled the Seanchan raid were perfectly written in my opinion. It was a fantastic read and I have reread those chapters at least 5 times since I got the book. However, I still feel like Egwene is still the same Femi-Nazi I've disliked since the early part of the series. What she dislike in Rand, the stubborness, the inability to accept bullying are the same traits she used in her rise to power and yet like most of the Aes Sedai, she thinks she needs to guide and handle Rand as if getting a shawl automatically confers wisdom.

 

The chapters about Rand was so good, Thank the light he pulled through. I loved the way Brandon Sanderson managed to show us the lowest Rand could go and yet when finally he re-discovered how to laugh..it was so perfectly done.

 

Last 2 quick things:

Cadsuane is a bully, good intentioned yes, but still a bully.

Talmanes was really off. I felt he was handled so poorly by Brandon.

 

 

 

 

[clu7ch]

Brownie points to ya luckers!

[Luckers]

I disagree though about fortuona's reversion as far as her realization on her feelings about Mat. In KOD, she's come to see her more than 'TOY', but a general and a man of honor, someone to respect..but in KOD she made it clear that she married Mat not out of love but out of duty to the empire. For her to finally admit to herself she misses Mat is a big step in finally admitting that maybe she indeed has fallen in love with him.

 

That's the point though, she seems startled that people defend him as a man of honour. She effectively makes the same realisations she made in KoD.

 

Cadsuane is a bully, good intentioned yes, but still a bully.

 

I actually disagree. Cadsuane is a woman who bullies, not a bully. She only does it when its effective for her purpose, not because she enjoys crushing people or anything. It's a subtle distinction, but a significant one.

 

Irrespective, that's not the point I was making. Whether she is a bully or not, she lost subtlety and skill in her bullying. Consider the scene after Rand kills Semirhage--it almost directly parallels the first scene where she meets Rand. She comes in uncertain of him and tries to guage his state. Then she was clever and crafty, adjusting her responses to get a rise from him, and studying that rise. This time she just bulled on stupidly, seeming startled when he reacts badly.

 

And more significantly, the point I was making is that even if you hate Cadsuane this doesn't serve. Making her an idiot in order that someone can call her an idiot is in no way as gratifying as having her being her usual strong self, and still pulling her up.

 

I maintain that scene with Tam and Cadsuane could have been one of the most amazing in the series, but because Cadsuane was cheapened, so too was the pay off from having Tam shoot her down.

[ed2funy]

I quite frankly loved it when she said, "eat the f**ken beans b**ch! Eat them off the F**ken floor!!!"

 

Ok....might not have been that....

I need to sleep....

IS that considered past PG-13....

Might need to modify that....

[Luckers]

I'm willing to allow it. For posterity.

 

I'm so gonna get fired.

 

 

[ed2funy]

lmao.....

No...Bela will protect you.

;)

[thewalrus777]

LMAO!

[Luckers]

lmao.....

No...Bela will protect you.

;)

 

*drags ed2funny out the back and disembowls him*

 

Hey... I warned him. Now he can live without his intestinal tract.

[ed2funy]

*shakes head*

Another one spelled it wrong....

 

P.S. I made this before your other post.... :P

post facto and all that good stuff... ;)

[Luckers]

I'm dyslexic, and I'm sure as hell not giving your intestines back.

[ed2funy]

damn...worth a try....

*hopes its safe to say:*

I will go ask Bela for more.....

:D

[Teslan]

 

I don't critique, i submerge and become....

:)

 

Pretty much.  

 

Bouncing around at the Seachen attack in the same manner I did 9 years ago reading Dumai.... Loved the regression to childhood levels of *squeee*

 

(e.g. OMG I am so excited I have to stop reading and bounce around the room for a moment to expend energy and then go back to reading)

 

(Now 25 years old, Ha - maturity!)

[ed2funy]

lmao...

[Mr. Insane]

  I agree with your conclusions Luckers. I just didn't respond last night because I didn't think I could resist bringing up the things I'd nitpick out as problems, and didn't think it'd leave me with a positive contribution to your thread.

[Luckers]

No feel free. Hubris aside I was hoping this thread could provide for a renewel of discussions--most being done to death due to the lock on the board.

 

I was, in fact, hoping that my comments would allow a structured response to individual aspects--characters, writing etc.

 

Probably my ego at work--but please, go for gold!

 

And people I WANT to know your thoughts on my thoughts. Agree, disagree--please let me know!

 

God damn I'm drunk. MERRY MERRY JOY JOY!

[ed2funy]

I highly disagree...

If only because you wrote it.

;)

[Mr. Insane]

   I thought characters stated the obvious a few too many times.  Mainly like how everyone in the white tower decided to tell Egwene that she really is the Amyrlin.  I felt like that sort of thought would have mostly been held back and not spoken.  

 

   It also felt like too many of the points Egwene used to gain influence over Eladia's loyalists Egwene herself was guilty of.  Egwene made sisters swear an oath of fealty, then used Eladia's thoughts about considering a fourth oath against her.  Egwene promoted 4 sisters from Accepted to Aes Sedai.  Eladia's demotion of one sister was a major factor in Egwene subverting Silvania and who knows how many other sisters. I didn't realy like how hypocritical Egwene looked, but could forgive that for how awesome her saving the tower from the seanchan attack was.

[Luckers]

Good points. The bit about the oaths occured to me--there is some forgiveness in that oaths of fealty have ways around them--oaths of obediance on the Oath Rod are more problematic.

 

I agree though that the whole deal was hypocritical.

 

The inverse of Egwene raising and Elaida demoting sisters didn't occur to me, but it's a good point.

[Lilbaz]

Merry X-mas everyone. Loved the book and can't wait for the next 2. Agree the book may have seemed blunt and some of the scenes could have been a little rushed. I think this may have something to do with how long it's been since the last book. Tor wanted the book out there and with it I think maybe there wasn't as much re writes/edits as in previous books. Think Cadsuane may change drastically in the next 2 books as she finaly gets the Dragon she's been waiting to serve (bit arogant I agree){Also hope we get a POV of what she thinks when she realises that the young insane man who she has just pissed off is at the top of Dragon Mount channeling enough sadin to destroy creation, maybe we'll see some laughter and tears from her  ;D}. The whole thing with Semihage (spelling) breaking over a spanking? Does that mean that Egwene is 20 times the woman that Cadsuane and Semi are. Felt weak to me and Rands fulfilling of the beggar prophesy, well blink and you miss it. Though they could do with some more time him seeing properly how his rule is effecting people and that even if he did win the last battle the world he'd leave behind wouldn't be worth living in.

 

That said Jordan had 20 years practice getting these charchters and story right in his head. Brandon has done a great job, ofcourse it will not be as good as if Jordan had wrote it (that would be impossible) but I do think he is the second best man to write the last 2 books and with a bit of the expectation and rush out of the way I believe he will do magnificently.

[dbo -WoT-]

Luckers-

I think whether a reader thinks Cadsuane was the same or less skilled and crafty in her "bullying/leading" doesn't diminish the Tam/Cadsuane scene at all.

First, I must admit I HATE that there are so many who think they need to guide Rand. Of course, this is coming from the readers POV where we know Rand's thoughts and actions. Egwene, for example, doesn't hear Rand's thoughts and hardly experiences any of his actions besides the results, and, of course, she is biased towards some of those results. As USURP888 said, it seems she thinks Rand needs to be “handled” and “guided” as soon as she obtains the shawl. It is true she, as Amyrlin, has obtained much power and will be a large influence on how the world is nurtured towards the last battle. However, she is as new to being Amyrlin as Rand is to being the Dragon Reborn. Newer in fact. Rand was the declared Dragon Reborn in book 3; Egwene wasn’t raised as the rebel Amyrlin, or the real Amyrlin, until after that. The fact that she thinks she knows better than Rand what Rand needs to do irritates me. Now, I don’t disagree with what you said about Egwene’s character. I wrote this to preface Cadsuane.

 

I, as many others do, have always disliked Cadsuane’s character. I dislike her for the simple reason she thinks she can guide Rand. True, she may have more experience than almost every other person living, if not every other, but she is going to use her own methods to guide Rand. Whether or not she is crafty or subtle, that doesn’t change that, over the books she is present in, she was continually leading Rand in the wrong direction. Their personalities conflict too much. Instead of adapting to the subject at hand, she tests and prods at him to see how he will react. Then based on what she discovers about him, she goads him in the direction she wants. Whether she is crafty in her testing or not, we know Rand doesn’t want to be tested. You can argue the scenes would have flowed differently if she retained her tact in TGS. However, I don’t think that would have influenced her final scene at all. Either way, she was going to eventually lead Tam to Rand. I knew this was coming long before I read this book. Many others will probably agree that Tam seemed the obvious and only “tool” Cadsuane could use to place Rand back on track. However, I was vastly wrong on thinking Tam would be the feather that would finally break “dark Rand’s” back and cause him to start avalanche-ing in the right direction. It was, instead, Cadsuane. Sure, Tam was the catalyst, but Rand was finally so fed up with Cadsuane trying to control him that he finally lost in when he saw her control extending beyond him to his father. HIS FATHER. We all know how Rand feels about Tam after leaving the Two Rivers in tEotW. This is what finally drove Rand so insane that he was “pushed out the other side,” so to say. This, and the Semirhage/Min scene of course. Anyways, after seeing his son go off the loony end, of course Tam is going to confront Cadsuane. She was meant to be that feather all along. Sure, you can argue the scene, again, may have flowed differently. This doesn’t change the power of that scene. Tam, a father standing up for HIS son, finally putting Cadsuane in her place. She needed it. It was going to happen. Whether or not the words would have flowed differently doesn’t change Tam finally rebuking the person who had actually broken his son. You may like or dislike the words that flowed from Cadsuane, depending on your personal feelings towards Cadsuane, but the meat and power of that scene was seeing Cadsuane finally being set down by Tam. I don’t see Cadsuane being able to craftily dig and probe at a furious Tam. The build up in TGS may not be the best, but the end result is the same. Cadsuane was bullying Rand. Deftly or not, it wouldn’t change the way Tam reacted to it. Tam didn’t care about her craftiness or subtlety; Tam cared about his son.

 

Of course, I do have bias towards Cadsuane. That’s just how I saw that scene. Regardless of whether Cadsuane was “on,” I feel that scene was very “on.”

 

Please let me know your thoughts regarding this. Maybe my bias is affecting my view of that scene too much.

 

[dbo -WoT-]

Merry X-mas everyone. Loved the book and can't wait for the next 2. Agree the book may have seemed blunt and some of the scenes could have been a little rushed. I think this may have something to do with how long it's been since the last book. Tor wanted the book out there and with it I think maybe there wasn't as much re writes/edits as in previous books. Think Cadsuane may change drastically in the next 2 books as she finaly gets the Dragon she's been waiting to serve (bit arogant I agree){Also hope we get a POV of what she thinks when she realises that the young insane man who she has just pissed off is at the top of Dragon Mount channeling enough sadin to destroy creation, maybe we'll see some laughter and tears from her  ;D}. The whole thing with Semihage (spelling) breaking over a spanking? Does that mean that Egwene is 20 times the woman that Cadsuane and Semi are. Felt weak to me and Rands fulfilling of the beggar prophesy, well blink and you miss it. Though they could do with some more time him seeing properly how his rule is effecting people and that even if he did win the last battle the world he'd leave behind wouldn't be worth living in.

 

That said Jordan had 20 years practice getting these charchters and story right in his head. Brandon has done a great job, ofcourse it will not be as good as if Jordan had wrote it (that would be impossible) but I do think he is the second best man to write the last 2 books and with a bit of the expectation and rush out of the way I believe he will do magnificently.

 

I agree with the Semirhage scene. I read it and thought, "Really? No, really?" Then, after reading the Cadsuane scene, which was vastly more powerful, I thought back to the Semirhage scene and thought, "No, come on. Really?" It took some of the biggest occurances in the series for Cadsuane to even be verbally put in her place. Semirhage needed a spanking. I know many found that scene hilarious. I just thought so much more could have been done with it and it was uncreative at best.

[Luckers]

Too drunk to respond to any of this, but please keep in mind that my review covered more than Cadsuane.