The Wording of the Third Oath (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

1. Sedai're surely as prone to superstition as anyone else when they, in defiance of all reason and oaths, refuse to accept the existence of the Black Ajah until being repeatedly beaten over the head with it.

 

That's not superstition, that's pride. Arrogance even. Both are easy falls for the highly educated, but Terez is right, superstition is not.

 

2. Our superstition is not the same as Randland superstition. An educated Sedai knows is aware that Shadowspawn exist and, if they accepted the existence of the Black Ajah, a sect of power-wielding Dark One worshipping women, that there's very little fundamental difference between the two. After all, at least a couple of the shadowspawn we're introduced to (Trollocs, maybe Fades, and Gray Men) all appear to have roots in humanity, but twisted by the power. Force a sister to face up to the reality of Black Ajah and or any other darkfriend, and you'd be surprised that they see no line between the two? Reason diminishes the line, not superstition.

 

The concept of superstition is not a variable trait. It is to have a belief about something with no basis in reason or fact. Superstitions in our world have the same qualities as superstitions in the story.

 

And Aes Sedai would not be subject to superstitions. Not as a whole. Sisters have faced up to the reality of Darkfriends, including Black Ajah, none have confused them with Shadowspawn.

 

Also it is 'Aes Sedai' not 'Sedai'. I don't know why that bugs me. I know its childish to be bugged by it. But still...

[Dakota]

Another comment, if I may.

 

Even in the very first book, the Eye of the World, we have evidence that the AS can use the power to kill Darkfriends.  I think it's when they're leaving Baerlon, or some other point where they're all trying to get out of some town before an angry mob.  Rand or one of the other kids asks Moraine if she can use the power to get rid of them, and she replies with something along the lines of "I can't because of the oaths, so unless you manage to convince me that all of them are Darkfriends, no."  I don't remember the exact quote or chapter or page, so if someone could either back me up or prove me wrong, that'd be great.

 

So regardless of the wordings of the oath and if the Darkfriend clause is supposed to be there or not, from the first book there's evidence that the AS can use the power to kill Darkfriends without being constrained by the oath.  Regardless of what the BWB says and other times the Oaths are quoted in the books, there's evidence that RJ intended this from the start.

[Luckers]

Another comment, if I may.

 

Even in the very first book, the Eye of the World, we have evidence that the AS can use the power to kill Darkfriends.  I think it's when they're leaving Baerlon, or some other point where they're all trying to get out of some town before an angry mob.  Rand or one of the other kids asks Moraine if she can use the power to get rid of them, and she replies with something along the lines of "I can't because of the oaths, so unless you manage to convince me that all of them are Darkfriends, no."  I don't remember the exact quote or chapter or page, so if someone could either back me up or prove me wrong, that'd be great.

 

So regardless of the wordings of the oath and if the Darkfriend clause is supposed to be there or not, from the first book there's evidence that the AS can use the power to kill Darkfriends without being constrained by the oath.  Regardless of what the BWB says and other times the Oaths are quoted in the books, there's evidence that RJ intended this from the start.

 

Unfortunately you are wrong, Moiraine never says anything of the sort. Darkfriends attack and burn down the Stag and Lion Inn in Baerlon. The mob is no threat to our stalwart heroes--they're already outside the town. And it is Nynaeve who attacks Moiraine, and it is on her unwillingness to go back and help people. Here is what Moiraine says.

 

"Be at ease. Wisdom, you think I can help Master Pitch and the people at the inn? Well, you are right." Nynaeve started to say something, but Moiraine waved it away and went on. "I can go back by myself and give some help. Not too much, of course. That would draw attention to those I helped, attention they would not thank me for, especially with the Children of the Light in the town. And that would leave only Lan to protect the rest of you. He is very good, but it will take more than him if a Myrddraal and a fist of Trollocs find you. Of course, we could all return, though I doubt I can get all of us back into Baerlon unnoticed. And that would expose all of you to whomever set that fire, not to mention the Whitecloaks. Which alternative would you choose, Wisdom, if you were I?"

 

"I would do something," Nynaeve muttered unwillingly.

 

"And in all probability hand the Dark One his victory," Moiraine replied. "Remember what – who - it is that he wants. We are in a war, as surely as anyone in Ghealdan, though thousands fight there and only eight of us here. I will have gold sent to Master Pitch, enough to rebuild the Stag and Lion, gold that cannot be traced to Tar Valon. And help for any who were hurt, as well. Any more than that will only endanger them. It is far from simple, you see. Lan."

 

[tEotW: 17 Watchers and Hunters]

[dholm]

Another example that I haven't seen cited is that Eldrene was able to use the One Power to destroy the dreadlords at Aemon's Field.  She was miles away at that time, so there's no chance that her life was in immediate danger.  However, she may predate the Oath against using the Power as a weapon.  We know from the discussion of age among the Kin that at least one Oath had to have been in place during the Trolloc Wars (since Aes Sedai were already dying "young" at that time), but I don't believe that we know specifically that this one was.

 

 

The Dreadlords were accompanied by Shadowspawn, plus Aemon was her Warder. I don't really think this example works.

 

I believe Dakota is mixing two events together. The one is as you referenced; the other is a thought by Rand in The Fires of Heaven, concerning Moiraine and her inability to fight the Shaido. But we've already covered Rand -- even if he believes it to be true, doesn't make it so.

 

He had not asked Moiraine—she could not use the One Power as a weapon against the Shaido, not unless they threatened her or he managed to convince her they were all Darkfriends—

[Dakota]

Another example that I haven't seen cited is that Eldrene was able to use the One Power to destroy the dreadlords at Aemon's Field.  She was miles away at that time, so there's no chance that her life was in immediate danger.  However, she may predate the Oath against using the Power as a weapon.  We know from the discussion of age among the Kin that at least one Oath had to have been in place during the Trolloc Wars (since Aes Sedai were already dying "young" at that time), but I don't believe that we know specifically that this one was.

 

 

The Dreadlords were accompanied by Shadowspawn, plus Aemon was her Warder. I don't really think this example works.

 

I believe Dakota is mixing two events together. The one is as you referenced; the other is a thought by Rand in The Fires of Heaven, concerning Moiraine and her inability to fight the Shaido. But we've already covered Rand -- even if he believes it to be true, doesn't make it so.

 

He had not asked Moiraine—she could not use the One Power as a weapon against the Shaido, not unless they threatened her or he managed to convince her they were all Darkfriends—

 

You are correct, I did mix up two different events.  So my assumption about the "Darkfriends Kill OK" bit being in the first book was mistaken.

[Bobbun]

(Regarding Eldrene)

 

The Dreadlords were accompanied by Shadowspawn, plus Aemon was her Warder. I don't really think this example works.

 

The Dreadlords were accompanied by Shadowspawn, but your claim that makes her able to kill them seems rather far fetched in my mind.  I doubt the oath against using the power as a weapon allows deliberately killing non-Shadowspawn with the power just because they're in the way.

 

As for Aemon, when Eldrene finally unleashed the power, he was dead.  We know an Aes Sedai can defend her warder with the power, but it's pretty clear she can't use it to avenge him.  This issue is specifically mentioned by Alanna, near the quote I gave earlier, by the way, and even if she turned out to be a Darkfriend herself, there's no reason for us to believe she's not speaking the truth in this regard.

 

Eldrene is a weak example, but the reason she's weak isn't the reasons you've given.  It's because she lived at a time when Aes Sedai may not have been bound by the Oath against using the power as a weapon.

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

After rereading the start of the thread, and attempting to find the in-text citations for the Three Oaths, I have to guess that Jordan either made some mistakes, couldn't make up his mind or deliberately intended for the Aes Sedai to have slight variations on the Oath:

^{"Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadow spawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister."} ~ Chapter 23, The Great Hunt

 

This, despite clear citations elsewhere that say no such thing about Darkfriends. If it were simply 'The Gathering Storm', one could blame Sanderson or suggest that Egwene was intentionally changing the Three Oaths for more latitude in the Last Battle, but that's the second book, and from another sister.

 

A mistake, or intentional? Not sure.

[AquilaInfernus]

It appears from the thread that there are a few legitimate reasons for 3rd Oath variation, both internally consistent with the story and as a result of author error (the length and complexity of the work makes it likely even numerous edits would overlook something like this).

 

I argue that the variation between 'levels' of darkfriends themselves (think the unnamed dark friend with the hot knife in EotW and compare to those who get a rude shock when on of the Forsaken actually calls on them) allows enough leeway in the AS perception to kill darkfriends in certain circumstances. A darkfriend who is actively performing the works of the DO clearly represents a greater threat, perhaps even immediate threat, to AS, both because AS are likely considered a threat to them (Niall and Rand's views confirm this) and also given the bond with the power appears to grant protection from, and awareness of the forces of the Shadow, signifying a generalised opposition between the One Power and the DO (Light and Shadow?).

 

A sister need only believe darkfriends are working to further the DO's own plans, and these plans focus on destroying the pattern or somesuch (who knows the DO's actual plan) to justify killing a known darkfriend on site.

 

I know it's a stretch, but this is far more likely to be the case with adventuring types such as Moiraine (especially Moiraine), than a tower bound Brown...

[dholm]

(Regarding Eldrene)

 

The Dreadlords were accompanied by Shadowspawn, plus Aemon was her Warder. I don't really think this example works.

 

The Dreadlords were accompanied by Shadowspawn, but your claim that makes her able to kill them seems rather far fetched in my mind.  I doubt the oath against using the power as a weapon allows deliberately killing non-Shadowspawn with the power just because they're in the way.

 

As for Aemon, when Eldrene finally unleashed the power, he was dead.  We know an Aes Sedai can defend her warder with the power, but it's pretty clear she can't use it to avenge him.  This issue is specifically mentioned by Alanna, near the quote I gave earlier, by the way, and even if she turned out to be a Darkfriend herself, there's no reason for us to believe she's not speaking the truth in this regard.

 

Eldrene is a weak example, but the reason she's weak isn't the reasons you've given.  It's because she lived at a time when Aes Sedai may not have been bound by the Oath against using the power as a weapon.

 

 

That depends. Whatever weave she used, it was clearly powerful enough to destroy the entire army gathered at what would later become Emond's Field. If she convinced herself she was attacking the Shadowspawn with it, and if she believed that thinking of it in those terms would make it work, I can see her getting past it that way.

I know they can't use it to avenge Warders -- I was the one who first brought up Alanna, remember? But are we sure Aemon was fully dead at the time? She felt him dying, yes, but do we know he was not simply mortally wounded?

 

I know there are other reasons; I simply wanted to mention the ones I thought of. I never claimed they were better.

[yoniy0]

That depends. Whatever weave she used, it was clearly powerful enough to destroy the entire army gathered at what would later become Emond's Field. If she convinced herself she was attacking the Shadowspawn with it, and if she believed that thinking of it in those terms would make it work, I can see her getting past it that way.

I know they can't use it to avenge Warders -- I was the one who first brought up Alanna, remember? But are we sure Aemon was fully dead at the time? She felt him dying, yes, but do we know he was not simply mortally wounded?

Hmm, I believe he was already dead, and in any case, she wasn't defending him by evaporating the entire battlefield. But I don't think that matters. Yes, she would probably assume that there were humans in the midst of all those throngs of trollocs, but she couldn't know that for sure, so my feeling is that she would allow herself to disregard that possibility.

I don't know why I feel that way. It does seem a bit irrational, but I just do.

 

A sister need only believe darkfriends are working to further the DO's own plans, and these plans focus on destroying the pattern or somesuch (who knows the DO's actual plan) to justify killing a known darkfriend on site.

I don't know. Only if she's convinced she can't thwart their plans in some other way. Otherwise it wouldn't be the last extreme, in my view.

 

Also it is 'Aes Sedai' not 'Sedai'. I don't know why that bugs me. I know its childish to be bugged by it. But still...

Yeah, maybe it is petty, but I felt the exact same way.

 

Edit: Oh, and Terez, thank you so much for arranging to ask BS about that. (That's the problem with not following the discussion for some time. When you do post again, to don't remember everything you meant to say).

[Random Man]

um...Eldrene died during the Trolloc Wars, which was before the Three Oaths were implemented. She wasn't bound at all when she avenged Aemon.

[Bobbun]

um...Eldrene died during the Trolloc Wars, which was before the Three Oaths were implemented. She wasn't bound at all when she avenged Aemon.

 

It's certainly possible that she wasn't bound by the Oath against using the Power as a weapon, and I have acknowledged as much.  However, the big picture of when the Three Oaths were adopted is more complicated than what you have described.  It's somewhat off topic for this thread, but I'll go ahead and post a summary of the reasoning:

 

Certainly if you take Sheriam's comments in The Great Hunt, Chapter 23, The Testing as authoritative, then you might come away with the understanding that all of the Three Oaths were adopted after the Trolloc Wars.  However, the actual timing and adoption of the Oaths is really a much more murky subject than that.  We know from a sidebar in The Big Book of Bad Art, Chapter 24, The White Tower that the Oath against making weapons using the power was the first adopted, and thus we know that not all the Oaths were adopted at the same time.  There are two lines of evidence that I know of that imply rather strongly that at least the Oath against making weapons with the Power predates the Trolloc Wars:

 

1.  In The Great Hunt, Chapter 1, The Flame of Tar Valon Lan has a rather long discussion with Rand about power wrought weapons.  Two points are pretty clear from that discussion:  One is that the Oath against making a power wrought weapon was first taken while the effects of The Breaking were still fresh in people's minds.  "When it was done, war and Age ended together, with the world shattered, with more dead unburied than there were alive and those alive fleeing, trying to find some place, any place, of safety, with every second woman weeping because she’d never see husband or sons again; when it was done, the Aes Sedai who still lived swore they would never again make a weapon for one man to kill another." 

 

Additional support for early adoption of the Oath from that same conversation is that Lan seems quite convinced that a power wrought sword could only have been made during the War of Power.  He could be mistaken, but one would expect Lan to know a great deal about weapons.  If swords had been made with the power during the Trolloc wars (and what better time to make them?) then he would probably know about it.

 

2.  In A Crown of Swords, Chapter 31, Mashiara and Chapter 37, A Note from the Palace, we have examples of Aes Sedai reaction to the Age of the Kin.  Merilille faints on hearing Reanne's age and Sareitha accuses Tamarla of lying about her age.  The explanation, as given by Elayne is that their ages aren't believed because no Aes Sedai since The Breaking has lived so long.  We know the reason for the shortened lives from various places--it's the Oath Rod.  This discussion strongly implies that at least one of the Oaths was in place shortly after The Breaking.

 

The overall implication is that Eldrene, an Aes Sedai who lived during the Trolloc Wars was bound by at least one Oath, though the only one we can be sure of is not the one we're interested in knowing about.  Unfortunately, we don't know exactly when any of the Oaths were adopted, but she might have been bound by one or both of the others as well.

 

[Terez]

um...Eldrene died during the Trolloc Wars, which was before the Three Oaths were implemented. She wasn't bound at all when she avenged Aemon.

I can't find a reference for your claim.  At the very least, we know that the Second Oath was implemented after the War of Power, over a thousand years before the Trolloc Wars, and I'm pretty sure that's the only indication we have of a time for when they were adopted, other than that it was 'since the Breaking'.  Also, Eldrene very deliberately sought out the Dreadlords and generals.  Not sure how, other than by something similar to what Rand did with Callandor in the Stone, but so the story goes.

[Terez]

um...Eldrene died during the Trolloc Wars, which was before the Three Oaths were implemented. She wasn't bound at all when she avenged Aemon.

I can't find a reference for your claim.  At the very least, we know (directly from the BWB) that the Second Oath was implemented after the War of Power, over a thousand years before the Trolloc Wars, and I'm pretty sure that's the only indication we have of a time for when they were adopted, other than that it was 'since the Breaking'.  Also, Eldrene very deliberately sought out the Dreadlords and generals.  Not sure how, other than by something similar to what Rand did with Callandor in the Stone, but so the story goes.

[yoniy0]

Also, Eldrene very deliberately sought out the Dreadlords and generals.  Not sure how, other than by something similar to what Rand did with Callandor in the Stone, but so the story goes.

 

You have to wonder though, how does anybody know what exactly went down there? I mean, if she did more damage than just kill the generals (as I seem to remember was said), who can tell her intended targets from the collateral damage?

Just teasing, pay no heed.

[Terez]

Also, Eldrene very deliberately sought out the Dreadlords and generals.  Not sure how, other than by something similar to what Rand did with Callandor in the Stone, but so the story goes.

 

You have to wonder though, how does anybody know what exactly went down there? I mean, if she did more damage than just kill the generals (as I seem to remember was said), who can tell her intended targets from the collateral damage?

Just teasing, pay no heed.

Yeah, that's why I worded it the way i did.  The argument has come up in the last couple of years on Theoryland, in reference to the amount of Power that would have been required to do what she did, and how the story could possibly be true (since Rand needed Callandor to do what he did with the Shadowspawn in the Stone).  But some of the Darkfriends did manage to escape, so there is a possibility that the story was accurately pieced together from Darkfriend testimony.  As to how she could differentiate...who knows?  How could Rand tell the difference between Shadowspawn and normal people in the Stone?  Seeking out those who could channel would probably have not proved any more difficult than seeking out Shadowspawn, and perhaps she had some way of singling out the generals as well.

[Sharaman]

Also, Eldrene very deliberately sought out the Dreadlords and generals.  Not sure how, other than by something similar to what Rand did with Callandor in the Stone, but so the story goes.

 

You have to wonder though, how does anybody know what exactly went down there? I mean, if she did more damage than just kill the generals (as I seem to remember was said), who can tell her intended targets from the collateral damage?

Just teasing, pay no heed.

Yeah, that's why I worded it the way i did.  The argument has come up in the last couple of years on Theoryland, in reference to the amount of Power that would have been required to do what she did, and how the story could possibly be true (since Rand needed Callandor to do what he did with the Shadowspawn in the Stone).  But some of the Darkfriends did manage to escape, so there is a possibility that the story was accurately pieced together from Darkfriend testimony.  As to how she could differentiate...who knows?  How could Rand tell the difference between Shadowspawn and normal people in the Stone?  Seeking out those who could channel would probably have not proved any more difficult than seeking out Shadowspawn, and perhaps she had some way of singling out the generals as well.

 

There are biological differences between Shadowspawn and humans. It's referred to time and again. SS can't go through Gates, you can ward one lot (SS) or the other (humans) but not both with the same wards (Shadard Logoth -Ways). SS were made by genetic engineering done with OP/ TP through the bad offices of Aginor. If you can build wards that specifically hit SS, you can do other weaves that specifically target SS. Callandor added power to Rand's weaves in the Stone but the weave itself was not necessarily impossible without Callandor. As to whether you can do weaves that specifically target channelers, well, we have things like the oath rod, Adam, which are useless against non-channelers. But I doubt you can target generals vs grunts - there's no biological difference between a random general and random private.

[Terez]

Well, Aes Sedai supposedly can sense Darkfriends that are far gone in the Shadow, and Fain can as well.  If it were just Fain, you could write it off as an anomaly, but it's not.  Generals at the height of the Trolloc Wars are prime candidates for having been that far gone, along with the Dreadlords, of course.

[yoniy0]

Terez, I must apologize. I was going of memory, but I was mistaken. Here is the part where Moiraine tells her story:

"In the Mountains of Mist, alone in the emptied city of Manetheren, Eldrene felt Aemon die, and her heart died with him. And where her heart had been was left only a thirst for vengeance, vengeance for her love, vengeance for her people and her land. Driven by grief she reached out to the True Source, and hurled the One Power at the Trolloc army. And there the Dreadlords died wherever they stood, whether in their secret councils or exhorting their soldiers. In the passing of a breath the Dreadlords and the generals of the Dark One's host burst into flame. Fire consumed their bodies, and terror consumed their just-victorious army.

 

"Now they ran like beasts before a wildfire in the forest, with no thought for anything but escape. North and south they fled. Thousands drowned attempting to cross the Tarendrelle without the aid of the Dreadlords, and at the Manetherendrelle they tore down the bridges in their fright at what might be following them. Where they found people, they slew and burned, but to flee was the need that gripped them. Until, at last, no one of them remained in the lands of Manetheren. They were dispersed like dust before the whirlwind. The final vengeance came more slowly, but it came, when they were hunted down by other peoples, by other armies in other lands. None was left alive of those who did murder at Aemon's Field.

So she did only seek out and killed the Dreadlords and generals. I guess a weave similar to what Rand did in the Stone of Tear is possible. That's not a real help for the purpose of this discussion, though, since I have to accept that she might not have been bound by the 3rd oath.

BTW I don't think that strength considerations have any place here. She indeed couldn't contain that much power - that's why she died, burning Manetheren to the ground. There's seem to be a provision in the books for one final act of incredible strength, if one were willing to die to achieve their goal.

[Terez]

aaaaand, this debate is over.  The girl who went to the Idaho Falls signing just reported (via PM on Facebook - if you require a screenshot, just ask, lol).

 

Brandon said he had to make sure he got the wording right for the oaths' date=' so he went back and copied it word for word from the previous books. Maria was the one that changed it saying RJ decided that Darkfriends should have always been included in the oaths. [/quote']

[Spilt-pea Soup]

Must be important for the upcoming plot that it can be used against DFs.

 

Glad that it's put to rest!

[Terez]

Well, if it was particularly important for the coming plot, you'd think Brandon would have known.  Or maybe he did, and he asked Maria about it.  Or maybe he didn't and she just told him....

[Bobbun]

Wonderful that it's all clear now.  Of course, the Oaths still have a few gaps in them.  Evidently Aes Sedai can kill Darkfriends with the power, but they can't make a weapon for one Darkfriend to kill another.  And, of course, they can use the power as a weapon against Shadowspawn and against Darkfriends, but evidently not against the Dark One himself!  ;D

[yoniy0]

Yeah, thanks, Terez

[Terez]

I should also point out, as to a point discussed earlier, that the claim that Egwene was a Darkfriend is not what gave Elaida the justification for using the Power against Egwene - that only gave her justification for expelling Egwene from the Tower, which in turn justified Elaida's use of the Power against an initiate (which is forbidden, either in punishment of novices or in the questioning of Black Ajah, as we saw with Ispan).