What's Going on at the Black Tower? (Full Spoilers)

[BladeDancer]

Theory

 

It is a good theory. Taim may always have been working for the Shadow.

 

On the Demandred Thread they are still arguing whether Taim is Demandred. LOL.

 

I believe you are right or at least partially right. I think that a Forsaken has to have taken some measure of interest in the Black Tower - I reckon Demandred as Dashiva is embedded with Rand. The POV of Raefar Kisman in WH reveals that he is in contact with Demandred after being ordered by Taim to kill Rand. It seems a bit unlikely to me that Taim (a Darkfriend) gives an order to another Darkfriend (Kisman) to kill Rand and then one of the Forsaken (never mind two) finds this out randomly. Surely Demandred could only know that Kisman had been exposed as a Darkfriend and where to find him because he was monitoring Taim at the Black Tower. Demandred then spoke to Kisman and gave him some instructions (which elaborated on his existing order from Taim). Similarly for Moridin - how would he know that Kisman attacked Rand in Cairhien, failed and was ordered to kill him by Taim? Moridin also must be monitoring Taim at the Black Tower - although he does not really want Kisman to kill Rand but asks him to retrieve Rand's belongings for him.

 

This whole incident only serves to reinforce my belief that Taim at the Black Tower is working with (or at least being covertly monitored by) Demandred.

[thewalrus777]

Theory

 

It is a good theory. Taim may always have been working for the Shadow.

 

On the Demandred Thread they are still arguing whether Taim is Demandred. LOL.

 

I believe you are right or at least partially right. I think that a Forsaken has to have taken some measure of interest in the Black Tower - I reckon Demandred as Dashiva is embedded with Rand. The POV of Raefar Kisman in WH reveals that he is in contact with Demandred after being ordered by Taim to kill Rand. It seems a bit unlikely to me that Taim (a Darkfriend) gives an order to another Darkfriend (Kisman) to kill Rand and then one of the Forsaken (never mind two) finds this out randomly. Surely Demandred could only know that Kisman had been exposed as a Darkfriend and where to find him because he was monitoring Taim at the Black Tower. Demandred then spoke to Kisman and gave him some instructions (which elaborated on his existing order from Taim). Similarly for Moridin - how would he know that Kisman attacked Rand in Cairhien, failed and was ordered to kill him by Taim? Moridin also must be monitoring Taim at the Black Tower - although he does not really want Kisman to kill Rand but asks him to retrieve Rand's belongings for him.

 

This whole incident only serves to reinforce my belief that Taim at the Black Tower is working with (or at least being covertly monitored by) Demandred.

 

Remember Dashiva was Aran'gar, and is now dead. So we did have an actual Forsaken for sure in the BT. Demandred isn't directly connected to the BT IMO. I believe he dabbles with the BT but isn't fully invested in it. Dashiva was as he was the Forsaken that was there on a full time basis.

 

Also, I too believe Taim to have always been a DF. Like RJ said regarding Taim,"He was never a nice guy." Not to mention, it would just be to tempting for one of the Forsaken to not want be involved with Taim, especially now with Taim supposedly running the BT.

[Luckers]

I've long thought Taim's been a darkfriend all along. From my work for the FAQ update on the Attack on Algarin's mannor.

 

....

 

Firstly according to RJ he is 28 years of age in LoC, and the earliest a man can spark is 18*. This means that currently Taim has been channeling a minimum of 6 years and a maximum of around 11 years (a year has passed since LoC).

 

We also know something of what he was doing during the time prior to his announcing himself Dragon 2 years ago--he says that he found five men over the years who could channel, though the only one who had the courage to go beyond the training went mad after 2 years. That two years, along with the comment of 'over the years' plus the 2 years after he announced himself Dragon is why I set up the 6 year minimum, though in truth I believe it to be longer.

 

Now even 6 years is a long time for Taim not to be showing signs of the Taint--both the mental instability, and the physical rotting. It’s not impossible of course, and some suggest that Taim's emotional instability and hubris might be a form of highly functional insanity, but even so, it seems a long time.

 

This is what I suggest. Around fifteen or sixteen years ago we know that Ishamael was in one of his free cycles (he personally physically forced Jarna Milari into the ter'angreal that killed her) and that he knew at the time that the Dragon Reborn had been born, and that Tarmon Gai'don was fast approaching. At this time I believe that he set out to gather channelers--beginning by testing and training men himself directly (and probably having women trained as well, Liandrin certainly infers as much in tFoH), and then setting them to go out and train men.

 

Why do I believe Taim is one such? For starters we know that Ishamael did it before, during the Trolloc Wars, so it makes sense that he would do it again. Secondly we have Taim's mannerisms--comments like 'so-called Aiel', the use of the lightning bolt sigil favoured by Sammael and Be'lal, the colouring of the tiles, the use of the Lord of Chaos comment--all of which imply significant long term exposure to the Forsaken and their mannerisms.

 

Beyond which he actually states it, he says he found five men--he claims only one of those men went beyond the testing, and that man went mad in two years, yet this almost certainly must be a lie because we know Taim is a darkfriend--one way or another he IS a darkfriend. Thirdly, he comments to Rand that if you use too much power in testing a man for the ability, the resonance MIGHT kill him, yet if he learned this through personal experience then one of those five men died, and there is no 'might' about it. His knowledge is too exactly technical.

 

So that, according to this theory, is Taim's origins. From there I believe he was commanded to announce himself Dragon by Ishamael and perform atrocities to spread and heighten fear of the Dragon. Certainly that’s implied by the few comments we have about his actions in that time, of what he did to Bashere's emissaries.

[BladeDancer]

We also know something of what he was doing during the time prior to his announcing himself Dragon 2 years ago--he says that he found five men over the years who could channel, though the only one who had the courage to go beyond the training went mad after 2 years. That two years, along with the comment of 'over the years' plus the 2 years after he announced himself Dragon is why I set up the 6 year minimum, though in truth I believe it to be longer.

 

Now even 6 years is a long time for Taim not to be showing signs of the Taint--both the mental instability, and the physical rotting. It’s not impossible of course, and some suggest that Taim's emotional instability and hubris might be a form of highly functional insanity, but even so, it seems a long time.

 

This is what I suggest. Around fifteen or sixteen years ago we know that Ishamael was in one of his free cycles (he personally physically forced Jarna Milari into the ter'angreal that killed her) and that he knew at the time that the Dragon Reborn had been born, and that Tarmon Gai'don was fast approaching. At this time I believe that he set out to gather channelers--beginning by testing and training men himself directly (and probably having women trained as well, Liandrin certainly infers as much in tFoH), and then setting them to go out and train men.

 

 

Beyond which he actually states it, he says he found five men--he claims only one of those men went beyond the testing, and that man went mad in two years, yet this almost certainly must be a lie because we know Taim is a darkfriend--one way or another he IS a darkfriend. Thirdly, he comments to Rand that if you use too much power in testing a man for the ability, the resonance MIGHT kill him, yet if he learned this through personal experience then one of those five men died, and there is no 'might' about it. His knowledge is too exactly technical.

 

Also in LOC, Taim makes a wager with Rand - "I'll make you a wager. You name the price. The first day I recruit, I will find as many men who can learn as walk into Caemlyn in a month on their own. Once Flinn and some of the others are ready to go out without me....".

 

Taim is extremely confident that he can find men channellers (or at least ones who can learn). This seems to imply he knows exactly where to find some. This could likely be reference to either Male Channellers that Taim has trained or encountered before or Darkfriends/Dreadlords plus Dashiva that he knows where to find. At the time he says this, Taim is training Flinn plus 6 other new (soon to be) Asha'man. None of the 7 students can yet Travel, so before they learn this, Taim can easily Travel by himself to the location of these known Darkfriends/Dreadlords and explain the situation to them - namely a plan to infiltrate the Black Tower. They would be able to get their cover stories straight and plan to appear new to channelling. Taim could then return with these Darkfriends and claim he just randomly recruited them or they could set up a later date in a week or so for Taim and Flinn to 'randomly' recruit them.

 

Of course Taim could just be extremely confident in his recruiting abilities when making the wager.

 

 

[nategator]

While doing a reread of some of the Foresaken stuff to try to get hints on what Demandred and the DO balefire plan might be, I had a thought from the beginning of TGS.  Check out the description of where the Foresaken meet, and tell me that it doesn't sound like the Black Tower, especially since she had no idea where she was:

 

It was distractingly hot on the other side of the gateway. She immediately wove Air and Water, cooling the air around her. She was in a black stone building, with ruddy light coming in the windows. They had no glass in them. That reddish tint implied a sunset, but it was barely midafternoon back in Arad Doman. Surely she hadn't traveled that far, had she?

The room was furnished only with hard chairs of the deepest black wood. Moridin certainly was lacking in imagination lately.

Everything of black and red, and all focused on killing those fool boys from the village of Rand al'Thor. Was she the only one who saw that al'Thor himself was the real threat? Why not just kill him and be done with it?

The most obvious answer to that question—that none of them so far had proven strong enough to defeat him—was one she didnot enjoy contemplating.

She walked to the window and found the reason for the rust-colored light. Outside, the claylike ground was stained red from the iron in the soil. She was on the second level of a deep black tower, the stones drawing in the burning heat of the sky. Very little vegetation sprouted outside, and that which did was spotted with black. So, it was the deep northeastern Blight. It had been some time since she'd been here. Moridin seemed to have located a fortress, of all things.

A collection of shoddy huts stood in the shadow of the  fortress, and a  few patches of blightstrain crops marked  fields in the distance. They were probably trying a new strain, coaxing it to grow in the area. Perhaps several different crops; that would explain the patches. Guards prowled the area, wearing black uniforms despite the heat. Soldiers were necessary to fight off

attacks from the various Shadowspawn that inhabited the lands this deep within the Blight. Those creatures obeyed no master save for the Great Lord himself. What was Moridin doing all the way out here?

 

Admittedly, it's thin.  But think about it for a second.  Everything is black and red, just like the description of inside the black tower when the Red Aes Sedai visited.  It's a "black tower" and not high, just deep.  Also, she cannot see the crops, instead she just assumes they are blightstrain.  But how can they be growing blightstrain when their magical genetic engineer got smoked by balefire?  Finally there are soldiers "wearing black uniforms despite the heat."  And the huts, that's the barracks or where Logain and his crew crashed.  Sure, it could be darkfriends...or Asha'man with weaves of air and water to keep themselves cool.  Finally, the question is tauning us "What was Moridin doing all the way out here?"  Um, running the black tower maybe? 

 

Ok, counter-evidence please.

[Sharaman]

While doing a reread of some of the Foresaken stuff to try to get hints on what Demandred and the DO balefire plan might be, I had a thought from the beginning of TGS.  Check out the description of where the Foresaken meet, and tell me that it doesn't sound like the Black Tower, especially since she had no idea where she was:

 

It was distractingly hot on the other side of the gateway. She immediately wove Air and Water, cooling the air around her. She was in a black stone building, with ruddy light coming in the windows. They had no glass in them. That reddish tint implied a sunset, but it was barely midafternoon back in Arad Doman. Surely she hadn't traveled that far, had she?

The room was furnished only with hard chairs of the deepest black wood. Moridin certainly was lacking in imagination lately.

Everything of black and red, and all focused on killing those fool boys from the village of Rand al'Thor. Was she the only one who saw that al'Thor himself was the real threat? Why not just kill him and be done with it?

The most obvious answer to that question—that none of them so far had proven strong enough to defeat him—was one she didnot enjoy contemplating.

She walked to the window and found the reason for the rust-colored light. Outside, the claylike ground was stained red from the iron in the soil. She was on the second level of a deep black tower, the stones drawing in the burning heat of the sky. Very little vegetation sprouted outside, and that which did was spotted with black. So, it was the deep northeastern Blight. It had been some time since she'd been here. Moridin seemed to have located a fortress, of all things.

A collection of shoddy huts stood in the shadow of the  fortress, and a  few patches of blightstrain crops marked  fields in the distance. They were probably trying a new strain, coaxing it to grow in the area. Perhaps several different crops; that would explain the patches. Guards prowled the area, wearing black uniforms despite the heat. Soldiers were necessary to fight off

attacks from the various Shadowspawn that inhabited the lands this deep within the Blight. Those creatures obeyed no master save for the Great Lord himself. What was Moridin doing all the way out here?

 

Admittedly, it's thin.  But think about it for a second.  Everything is black and red, just like the description of inside the black tower when the Red Aes Sedai visited.  It's a "black tower" and not high, just deep.  Also, she cannot see the crops, instead she just assumes they are blightstrain.  But how can they be growing blightstrain when their magical genetic engineer got smoked by balefire?  Finally there are soldiers "wearing black uniforms despite the heat."  And the huts, that's the barracks or where Logain and his crew crashed.  Sure, it could be darkfriends...or Asha'man with weaves of air and water to keep themselves cool.  Finally, the question is tauning us "What was Moridin doing all the way out here?"  Um, running the black tower maybe? 

 

Ok, counter-evidence please.

 

The geographical and weather descriptions don't fit. The BT is near Caemlyn. That is East of Arad Doman but not that far East for local time to be 2-3 hours ahead. (The vibe is 6 minutes/degree of longitude so she's talking about 25-30 degrees of longitude - we don't know how many kms that translates into, without knowing the latitudes). It's not particularly hot in Caemlyn at the time (early summer?) though it would always be hotter than Graendal's mountain palace.

Other than that, you could be right.

 

Also it doesn't require a genius to perpetuate already-known lines of research in terms of blightstrain crops, or anything else. We know zilch about food logistics of the Blight - this has come up a lot when people have been trying to assess the size of GLoD's hidden forces. Quite possible that they've been experimenting for 3K years - even Fades and Trollocs need to eat and we know that trollocs are advanced enough to have a tribal society with writing and Fades are apparently as bright as normal human beings. Like other tribal societies at that level, they may grow crops either for their own consumption, or for that of meat animals. She does say the vegetation is spotted with black, which again argues in favour of the Blight.

 

There is always the chance that Taim has borrowed his architectural plans and landscaping layout from Moridin?

 

[nategator]

While doing a reread of some of the Foresaken stuff to try to get hints on what Demandred and the DO balefire plan might be, I had a thought from the beginning of TGS.  Check out the description of where the Foresaken meet, and tell me that it doesn't sound like the Black Tower, especially since she had no idea where she was:

 

It was distractingly hot on the other side of the gateway. She immediately wove Air and Water, cooling the air around her. She was in a black stone building, with ruddy light coming in the windows. They had no glass in them. That reddish tint implied a sunset, but it was barely midafternoon back in Arad Doman. Surely she hadn't traveled that far, had she?

The room was furnished only with hard chairs of the deepest black wood. Moridin certainly was lacking in imagination lately.

Everything of black and red, and all focused on killing those fool boys from the village of Rand al'Thor. Was she the only one who saw that al'Thor himself was the real threat? Why not just kill him and be done with it?

The most obvious answer to that question—that none of them so far had proven strong enough to defeat him—was one she didnot enjoy contemplating.

She walked to the window and found the reason for the rust-colored light. Outside, the claylike ground was stained red from the iron in the soil. She was on the second level of a deep black tower, the stones drawing in the burning heat of the sky. Very little vegetation sprouted outside, and that which did was spotted with black. So, it was the deep northeastern Blight. It had been some time since she'd been here. Moridin seemed to have located a fortress, of all things.

A collection of shoddy huts stood in the shadow of the  fortress, and a  few patches of blightstrain crops marked  fields in the distance. They were probably trying a new strain, coaxing it to grow in the area. Perhaps several different crops; that would explain the patches. Guards prowled the area, wearing black uniforms despite the heat. Soldiers were necessary to fight off

attacks from the various Shadowspawn that inhabited the lands this deep within the Blight. Those creatures obeyed no master save for the Great Lord himself. What was Moridin doing all the way out here?

 

Admittedly, it's thin.  But think about it for a second.  Everything is black and red, just like the description of inside the black tower when the Red Aes Sedai visited.  It's a "black tower" and not high, just deep.  Also, she cannot see the crops, instead she just assumes they are blightstrain.  But how can they be growing blightstrain when their magical genetic engineer got smoked by balefire?  Finally there are soldiers "wearing black uniforms despite the heat."  And the huts, that's the barracks or where Logain and his crew crashed.  Sure, it could be darkfriends...or Asha'man with weaves of air and water to keep themselves cool.  Finally, the question is tauning us "What was Moridin doing all the way out here?"  Um, running the black tower maybe?  

 

Ok, counter-evidence please.

 

The geographical and weather descriptions don't fit. The BT is near Caemlyn. That is East of Arad Doman but not that far East for local time to be 2-3 hours ahead. (The vibe is 6 minutes/degree of longitude so she's talking about 25-30 degrees of longitude - we don't know how many kms that translates into, without knowing the latitudes). It's not particularly hot in Caemlyn at the time (early summer?) though it would always be hotter than Graendal's mountain palace.

Other than that, you could be right.

 

Also it doesn't require a genius to perpetuate already-known lines of research in terms of blightstrain crops, or anything else. We know zilch about food logistics of the Blight - this has come up a lot when people have been trying to assess the size of GLoD's hidden forces. Quite possible that they've been experimenting for 3K years - even Fades and Trollocs need to eat and we know that trollocs are advanced enough to have a tribal society with writing and Fades are apparently as bright as normal human beings. Like other tribal societies at that level, they may grow crops either for their own consumption, or for that of meat animals. She does say the vegetation is spotted with black, which again argues in favour of the Blight.

 

There is always the chance that Taim has borrowed his architectural plans and landscaping layout from Moridin?

 

 

I don't consider the light to be evidence of a time shift.  She states that she at first thought it was sundown which made no sense, so she went to the window, and realized that the sundownish light was caused by reflecting off of the claylike ground because it was red from (what she believed) was a high iron content.  Or, if you prefer a pun, the red light is a red herring.

 

Also, one of the beginning LOC chapters and 42, both scenes where Rand visits the BT, had Rand noticing how hot it was, people were sweating, etc.  In fact, Rand has a conversation with Taim where he wonders why one of the serving wives was sweating so much and asked why the wives hadn't been taught the mental trick to not notice the heat.  Taim replied that many refused to learn it from their husbands/partners because they were afraid it had something to do with the one power.  Finally, it's worth noting that Greandal did not feel the surrounding temperature.  She felt the temperature on the second level of "a deep black tower, the stones drawing in the burning heat of the sky."

 

Good points about the Trollocs and Fades, but why wouldn't a Moridin complex have them guarding the area rather than darkfriends?  He's supposed to be gathering them together in preparation of the last battle.  Granted, I wouldn't let them near my pad either since they smell bad, but it seems odd.

 

I do like that you connected the blightstrain crops with the population density issues of Trollocs and Fades.  The Foresaken burn through 100k of them in KoD like it was nothing, if I remember correctly it was a group that came up missing or something.  I suspect that the Shadow has Shadowspawn reserves close to double whatever human/Ogier/wolf troops the Light can field.  Would only make sense since RJ kept on saying that the Light was losing badly towards the end of the series.

 

"spotted with black" is the toughest one to argue against.  All I can say is that they had to use the one power to construct a black tower, so black dust got sprayed all over the place.  It could be, for example, black oxide particals that were used in a coating process to create the black for the black tower.  And/or maybe some leaching of whatever chemicals or substances from the stone to make it black caused the red claylike ground to form.

 

I would love to hear what a geologist thinks would happen if you extracted/leached only black material from the ground or stone to make the tower.  Would it possibly leave the surrounding area forming a clay like material, maybe red color?  Sounds like something an author would research, find out, and include as an easter egg in the book.  Maybe it's a byproduct of creating black oxide coating for zinc (I don't know if you can do a black oxide coating for general "stone" and I don't think the BT would be created out of steel,regardless of the magic can do anything possibility).

[Sharaman]

I don't consider the light to be evidence of a time shift.  She states that she at first thought it was sundown which made no sense, so she went to the window, and realized that the sundownish light was caused by reflecting off of the claylike ground because it was red from (what she believed) was a high iron content.  Or, if you prefer a pun, the red light is a red herring.

 

Also, one of the beginning LOC chapters and 42, both scenes where Rand visits the BT, had Rand noticing how hot it was, people were sweating, etc.  In fact, Rand has a conversation with Taim where he wonders why one of the serving wives was sweating so much and asked why the wives hadn't been taught the mental trick to not notice the heat.  Taim replied that many refused to learn it from their husbands/partners because they were afraid it had something to do with the one power.

 

Good points about the Trollocs and Fades, but why wouldn't a Moridin complex have them guarding the area rather than darkfriends?  He's supposed to be gathering them together in preparation of the last battle.  Granted, I wouldn't let them near my pad either since they smell bad, but it seems odd.

 

I do like that you connected the blightstrain crops with the population density issues of Trollocs and Fades.  The Foresaken burn through 100k of them in KoD like it was nothing, if I remember correctly it was a group that came up missing or something.  I suspect that the Shadow has Shadowspawn reserves close to double whatever human/Ogier/wolf troops the Light can field.  Would only make sense since RJ kept on saying that the Light was losing badly towards the end of the series.

 

"spotted with black" is the toughest one to argue against.  All I can say is that they had to use the one power to construct a black tower, so black dust got sprayed all over the place.  That and maybe some leaching of whatever chemicals or substances from the stone to make it black caused the red claylike ground to form.

 

I would love to hear what a geologist thinks would happen if you extracted/leached only black material from the ground or stone to make the tower.  Would it possibly leave the surrounding area forming a clay like material, maybe red color?  Sounds like something an author would research, find out, and include as an easter egg in the book.

 

 

Dropping your and my previous posts.

Your red light reflection thought is reasonable. I considered that and I've lived in red sandstone country (Great Indian Desert) and I guess it may fool somebody who's not used to it, but the angles would be wrong. Anyhow assume that your time shift factor is catered for by red ground, good point.

 

LoC was the year before TGS. Then GLoD was searing the world with unnatural heat that continued deep into what should have been autumn and winter. It was only corrected when the Bowl of the Winds was used in TPoD.

Subsequently, there's been a very harsh winter (WH- KoD) and Westland is now in spring, early summer (two references in the prologue itself - Borderland farmer PoV- early spring planting and - random conversation between Seanchan soldiers about trees that don't bud in spring). The weather has corrected though crops are still not growing properly.

It's not unnaturally hot anymore according to most descriptions.

 

There's several specific timelines posted at various sites. http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl1000.htm#book11 for instance - says it may be April.

 

You could very easily find an area with basalt (black stones) and red sand/clay laterites (sometimes called "red cotton soil"). No, I'm guessing the spotting effect wouldn't happen or rather it won't be black but red.  If you have a common combination of basalt (black rock), which contains ferric oxides (red iron) and laterites (again iron-rich), the powder from those would be predominantly red (hence red soil) while the unweathered stone was black. So black tower, red soil is totally possible but black spotted dust is unusual.

In case, you're wondering, I'm not a geologist but I worked on archaeological digs as a student in laterite country and later I've worked in offshore petro exploration (as a marine engineer not geologist). So I'm guessing from experience, rather than knowledge, and I could very well be wrong.

 

The absence of trolloc and fades is as you say, strange. But there are no women either and no apparent sign of guards channeling.

 

[nategator]

This is why I love forums sometimes, you can get expert level input from people in fields you slept through in college.  (I took rocks for jocks - i.e. Geology 101 and can't remember a damn thing other than it was easy).  I agree that this theory is a stretch but can still happen especially if we get some details about the BT and surrounding area during the BT rumble many of us are expecting.  Something like, as Logain enters the ground he thinks about how hot it always is and how nothing grows in the red claylike area surrounding the tower.

 

Also, isn't the area around the Pit of Doom cold?  I remember that description during LoC I think.  How was the temperature of the blight during the EotW invasion?  

About the heat - while the surrounding area is described as hot, Greandal also notes that she felt the temperature on the second level of "a deep black tower, the stones drawing in the burning heat of the sky."  So, she might have been thrown off with how hot it was, and spring time conditions are in the surrounding area.  

 

The absence of women supports that it's the BT in my opinion, since only men would be providing security.  Most of the women stay in the village area and I bet none of Taim's special students who live in the Tower are married.  I'm also pretty sure conventional wisdom on the forums is that Taim isn't letting any Aes Sedai / Asha'man pairing involving his faction.

 

Lack of channeling is a problem.  I don't want to research what is the theoretical distance one needs to sense channeling.  That, or Greandal might have sensed light-level channeling, but assumed that Ishy was building a darkfriend army in the blight so didn't even bother to think about it.

 

Anyways, the similarities to the dark tower, whether or not it is the dark tower, supports the still out-there theory that Taim = Ishy, not Taim = minion.  Ishy did like to pervert the light from the insider (during Hawking and arguably before the War of Light when he announced he was going with the DO in the Hall of Servants, causing riots and defections)

[Luckers]

Graendal doesn't guess they're in the blight as a way to explain the black spots on the vegetation, she states that those black spots means that they are in the Blight.

 

She walked to the window and found the reason for the rust-colored light. Outside, the claylike ground was stained red from the iron in the soil. She was on the second level of a deep black tower, the stones drawing in the burning heat of the sky. Very little vegetation sprouted outside, and that which did was spotted with black. So, it was the deep northeastern Blight.

 

To presume Graendal is mistaken about that--especially when she specifies where in the Blight, thus showing detailed knowledge--seems unsustainable to me.

 

Also, isn't the area around the Pit of Doom cold?  I remember that description during LoC I think.  How was the temperature of the blight during the EotW invasion?

 

Sweltering.

[Sharaman]

This is why I love forums sometimes, you can get expert level input from people in fields you slept through in college.  (I took rocks for jocks - i.e. Geology 101 and can't remember a damn thing other than it was easy).  I agree that this theory is a stretch but can still happen especially if we get some details about the BT and surrounding area during the BT rumble many of us are expecting.  Something like, as Logain enters the ground he thinks about how hot it always is and how nothing grows in the red claylike area surrounding the tower.

 

Also, isn't the area around the Pit of Doom cold?  I remember that description during LoC I think.  How was the temperature of the blight during the EotW invasion? 

About the heat - while the surrounding area is described as hot, Greandal also notes that she felt the temperature on the second level of "a deep black tower, the stones drawing in the burning heat of the sky."  So, she might have been thrown off with how hot it was, and spring time conditions are in the surrounding area. 

 

The absence of women supports that it's the BT in my opinion, since only men would be providing security.  Most of the women stay in the village area and I bet none of Taim's special students who live in the Tower are married.  I'm also pretty sure conventional wisdom on the forums is that Taim isn't letting any Aes Sedai / Asha'man pairing involving his faction.

 

Lack of channeling is a problem.  I don't want to research what is the theoretical distance one needs to sense channeling.  That, or Greandal might have sensed light-level channeling, but assumed that Ishy was building a darkfriend army in the blight so didn't even bother to think about it.

 

Anyways, the similarities to the dark tower, whether or not it is the dark tower, supports the still out-there theory that Taim = Ishy, not Taim = minion.  Ishy did like to pervert the light from the insider (during Hawking and arguably before the War of Light when he announced he was going with the DO in the Hall of Servants, causing riots and defections)

 

Not an expert as I pointed out :)  Area around SG is very cold but the Blight in general is unnaturally hot or at least it has unnaturally hot patches of dense tropical (mutated) jungle in EotW. Unnatural because it's far North and there are mountains etc. Yeah, stone can draw heat or not - it depends a lot on the stone and how it's put together. But thick stone walls tend to actually even outside temperature - cooler in the heat and hotter in the cool.

 

Lack of women could be taken either way but who's tending the crops?

 

No - she wouldn't necessarily sense channeling especially Saidin but she might see its effects. I don't think there was any and she doesn't even consider it - not even when the pretty boy fetches her via Gate. She considered Compulsion and she would know that it doesn't work on somebody holding Saidin. Anyway small point - there may / may not be any channeling and she may/ may not see or sense it.

 

The Moridin= Taim theory doesn't work on a fairly simple level. Moridin is not using Mask of Mirrors - he lost TP when the Balefire crossed in Shadar Logoth and he and Rand held hands (physical contact disturbs MoM). So Moridin is his real appearance - he's a big guy, blue eyes, same height as Rand.

Taim is shorter than Rand (above average height but noticeably shorter than Rand), black eyes, etc. When Taim meets Rand, there are four Saldaean swords poking him hard enough to draw blood, then he hands over the seals (possible physical contact with Rand) and then he holds Flinn while testing him. His appearance doesn't change. So he's not using MoM either.

 

I like the Taim= disciple of Ishamel (not minion) theory. Luckers articulated it pretty well.

 

I don't like the Moridin's Tower = Black Tower or Moridin's Tower = Malkier for similar reasons.

 

One small point - anybody who Travels extensively (Graendal) is likely to develop a very good internal clock for sensing local time especially if the sun is clearly up or stars are visible and reconciling it with internal body clock. Trust me on this one - I was a sailor :).

 

 

 

 

 

[nategator]

Either the black stone is sucking in heat, thus causing the tower to be hotter, or the description got it wrong and it's actually the same temperature.  Either way, it puts Greandal's perspective into question.

 

About the internal clock - I guess I'm reading the passage as a stream of consciousness.  She sees red, thinking it's sundown, no wait, the red is caused by the ground.  Weird, the whole entire room is red and black, the black doesn't show much creativity...Ok, so where is she?  She thinks it's pretty warm, and notices black spots on the plants.  Hmm must be the northeastern Blight.  And there are guys in black patrolling the area.  Ok, well that makes sense because you need security.  And there seems to be stuff growing, well that could be because they are developing new strains.  But what's Mor doing here and how did he find a fortres...[Others come in, she stops thinking about it]

 

Fair enough.  Heck she's more likely to be right than wrong since (unlike any of us) she has presumably been to the northeastern blight.  But it's just the way she's trying to fill in the blanks and figure out where the heck she is, rather than just expository describe it to us (as in she immediately recognizes XXXXX cathedral in the Northeastern blight, etc.) leads me to believe there maybe something here.  But whatever, the facts are we have such little knowledge of a 4 square mile area known as the BT that has hundreds of channelers to modify it to the extent they can channel and no good intel on the northeastern blight, there's no way that this issue can be conclusively proven or, in my humble opinion, disproven.  So, I'll leave it at this: if BS never refers to the area when the rumble at the BT occurs then I agree it's Ishyland. Or if we visit Ishyland and here's the magic 2nd black tower (newer! better! with more red and black!) with black clothed dudes (who put the black in black tower) then I'll concede defeat, at least it killed some time before the next book comes out.  But if my 1% chance is correct when we visit the BT, I win.

[Diederichos]

Did BS confirm if he'd be leaving out Pevara's section or if he'd include it?

[wingedearth]

I think Moridin being involved with the Black Tower is a good theory. I mean, it would explain what he's been up to. It would be pretty disappointing if, after 3,000 of plotting, Ishamael's only strategy is to appear in Rand's dreams and yell, "You shall never win!!!"

[wingedearth]

I think Moridin being involved with the Black Tower is a good theory. I mean, it would explain what he's been up to. It would be pretty disappointing if, after 3,000 of plotting, Ishamael's only strategy is to appear in Rand's dreams and yell, "You shall never win!!!"

 

Well, okay so so Ishamael has also been running the Darkfriends and Black Ajah, though apparently he quickly lost the Black Ajah to Moghedian and Mesanna once he died in TDR. And what good (or evil) have the Friends of the Dark been to Ishamael, really? Not much at all.

 

The most successful of the Forsaken appear to have been Mesanna, Demandred, and Semirhage. They're the ones that really got Rand to distrust the Aes Sedai, to build a dark, angry Black Tower, and to use the True Power.  I think Ishamael must have been involved with these, and with the Black Tower as one cohesive plan to split Rand from the Aes Sedai and, left to his own attempt at hardening himself, to be attracted to power.  I think maybe this is the plan given by the Dark One to Demandred and the others in LoC, and Moridin was sent in to make sure they stuck to the plan (and he punished Semirhage when she didn't).

 

At this point, I think Demandred is directing Taim (in LoC someone said Demandred likes to work through proxies), and Moridin is directing Demandred and Mesanna. The Black Tower (minus Logain's supporters) is Demandred's army, and the Black Ajah is Mesanna's army.

[Durinax]

Well heres how I think things are going. Moridin/Ishimael is the main general and he started many things in motion (including finding an apprentice (taim), and later allowing another forsaken to oversee the project), he also started teh BA to hunt for rand and anyone who knew of his existance, he has been organizing the trolloc and myrrdraal, searching out DF networks (and informing other forsaken of their locations so that they could use them), corrupted the Seanchan Prophecies, and the Children of the Light. he is a pretty successful guy, personnally I think he got named Nae'blis is because he manipulated the other forsaken into taking over projects he started.

 

And as for the BT I think that Taim got sent to Demandred for further training (helps explain his absense in the world) and how he learned to test males for the spark. Now demandred is using him as a proxy and king Roedran (whom is a darkfriend, I cannot recall whether he suddenly appeared out of the woodwork). He also has something big planned in the far south. . . I believe he has been corrupting generals in many different areas including the seanchan, tear, and illian, (I am just praying he hasnt taken any Aiel leaders). Now no one knows how many people taim has in his special classes, as I think he is using them to send messages to secret meetings around randland on behalf of demandred. As for the new dreadlords, I think they will be very few, maybe around 12-25 channellers, taim being the most prominate among them (maybe elaidas old keeper will be among them) and the rest of the channellers will be used as shock troops and to move information from battlefront to battlefront

[mb]

I guess this is a speculation thread.

 

 

rebel's envoy, they might have accompanied their Ashamen during the Ashamen recruiting trips; after they were done bonding.

 

Red Ajah envoy, maybe the same thing.

 

Or perhaps both envoys took their Ashamen to private locations.

 

The non-bonded Ashamen, they probably are continuing their training.

 

 

Maybe the Ashamen factions fought with each other some time after the last bonding and the envoys helped their Ashamen through it.

 

[wingedearth]

I just re-read Lord of Chaos, and it seems obvious that the Dumai's Well incident was a culmination of a plan by Demandred and Mesanna and maybe Semirrage (whom we know to be working together). Galina and Sevanna must have received orders from them, and the incident was what is was because of the intervention of the Ashaman.  Rand told the Aes Sedai to kneel, but it was Mazrim Taim who made them swear fealty to the Dragon.  We know Mesanna is in the White Tower directing the Black Ajah at this point, which explains Galina, so Taim is either Demandred or is being directed by him. Demandred brags about all this to the Dark One.

 

If Demandred is not Taim and is not directing Taim, then he must be directing the Shaido and Sevanna. Likely, Demandred is the "strange man" that Sevanna met with, who gave her a cubic box (I think it's stasis box).  That's the only other explanation that makes sense. So Demandred's army is either the Shaido or the Ashaman or both.

[Javonite]

My first post at the forums. Hello everyone.

 

Like others have posted before I too believe, that all the Asha'man in Taim's palace are indeed Darkfriends. It's also not unlikely that a large group of Black Sisters will end up in the BT soon. (Alviarin / Meesana might send them there for instance.)

 

As for those who argue that Taim doesn't have the resources to start turning sisters, I don't quite agree. The BT compound is very large, splitting the AS up in smaller groups and picking them off one by one, should be feasible, and then there's Forkroot. Obstacles would be Warders, and not being able to form circles with men only. The timing would be good too, Taim should show his true colours soon anyway and a good "excuse" to rent the tower in blood and fire.

 

wingedearth - Your post made me realise something (probably nothing which haven't been thought of / mentioned before). It seems to me that the Demandred - Mesaana - Semirhage trinity have attached themselves to three major channeler factions: Black Tower - White Tower - Seanchan / Damane; played them out against each other, and between them pushed Rand farther and farther away from his humanity.

 

[BladeDancer]

 

If Demandred is not Taim and is not directing Taim, then he must be directing the Shaido and Sevanna. Likely, Demandred is the "strange man" that Sevanna met with, who gave her a cubic box (I think it's stasis box).  That's the only other explanation that makes sense. So Demandred's army is either the Shaido or the Ashaman or both.

 

In A Crown of Swords it is clarified that Sevanna has been dealing with a man who is actually Sammael in disguise. The cube when used with channelling was a communication device/beacon allowing Sevanna to speak to Sammael and act as a location beacon. Sammael was enticing Sevanna to renege on her deal with Galina's Aes Sedai party and steal a captive Rand from them. Hence Dumai's Wells. Sammael was then planning to take Rand from Sevanna or kill him.

 

Mesaana's plan was for Rand to be delivered to the White Tower by Galina and her party. Then she could have access to a shielded Dragon Reborn to do whatever she wanted. I am suspicious as to how and when the Asha'man intervened in the battle. They only appeared when it seemed the Shaido were on the verge of winning (as Rand was knocking out the Aes Sedai from behind). Maybe Taim genuinely was there to rescue Rand and only located him and were only able to Travel there at that moment. But if Taim is working with/for Demandred then this would show that Taim was there to prevent the Shaido from taking Rand (and possibly killing him). It is unlikely that Sammael's dealings with Sevanna were known to anyone else at that point (apart from possibly Graendal or maybe Moridin). Demandred might have been involved in rescuing Rand and thus foiling Mesaana's plan but Demandred would at least have succeeded in making Rand harder and distrusting of Aes Sedai. Mesaana was an ally with Demandred and Semirhage however the alliance is fairly loose and Demandred would not want Mesaana as Nae'blis so would not be crying about seeing her plan to capture Rand fail.

 

Having thought about it, why would Galina and her crew make a deal with Sevanna anyway? The Shaido would not have known about them having Rand captive otherwise and the Shaido would not normally attack the Aes Sedai without a proper incentive. The only reason I can think of is that Galina (and possibly Elaida) wanted Gawyn and the Younglings killed but in a way where they could deny responsibility to the Tower Guard and Andor. Galina wanted the Shaido to do this and thus absolve her responsibility for this event. Did Galina think that Perrin and Rhuarc would figure out they had grabbed Rand and would come after them and needed the Shaido to fend off a retrieval operation? At this time, the Aes Sedai discounted the Asha'man as significant. Galina's party (including Younglings) would have been able to fend off a rescue party on their own unless Rhuarc brought virtually all the Aiel and even then as long as they shielded Rand they would still hold their own - unless the Wise Ones broke their normal behaviour and joined in the battle.

[RMosack]

The title of the next book in WOT is called the Towers of Midnight. This is an indicator that the Black Tower will feature heavily (as will the Tower of Ghenji and Tuon allying with Rand).

 

 

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere here that the next book is planned to be Towers of Midnight, but The Three Towers was also possibility.  Well, which three?  The White Tower and the Black Tower are obvious.  Which is the third? 

 

Since the AS have reunited, there's really no more Rebel Tower.  I can't think of any sort of "tower" that applies to the Seanchan or anyone else.  To me, that leaves the Tower of Gengi. 

 

That seems like three clear tower storylines for that next book.  I can't wait to see what happens in the Black Tower. 

[Crael123]

The title of the next book in WOT is called the Towers of Midnight. This is an indicator that the Black Tower will feature heavily (as will the Tower of Ghenji and Tuon allying with Rand).

 

 

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere here that the next book is planned to be Towers of Midnight, but The Three Towers was also possibility.  Well, which three?  The White Tower and the Black Tower are obvious.  Which is the third? 

 

Since the AS have reunited, there's really no more Rebel Tower.  I can't think of any sort of "tower" that applies to the Seanchan or anyone else.  To me, that leaves the Tower of Gengi. 

 

That seems like three clear tower storylines for that next book.  I can't wait to see what happens in the Black Tower. 

 

me dos its guna be epic

[thewalrus777]

The title of the next book in WOT is called the Towers of Midnight. This is an indicator that the Black Tower will feature heavily (as will the Tower of Ghenji and Tuon allying with Rand).

 

 

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere here that the next book is planned to be Towers of Midnight, but The Three Towers was also possibility.  Well, which three?  The White Tower and the Black Tower are obvious.  Which is the third? 

 

Since the AS have reunited, there's really no more Rebel Tower.  I can't think of any sort of "tower" that applies to the Seanchan or anyone else.  To me, that leaves the Tower of Gengi. 

 

That seems like three clear tower storylines for that next book.  I can't wait to see what happens in the Black Tower. 

 

There are the Towers of Midnight in Seanchan. The city they are located in is Imfaral. The Towers of Midnight are basically a fortress that served as the original base of operations for Luthair when his conquest began. It was also his original capitol before he took Seandar as his capitol. Actually the Towers of Midnight hold a very significant place in Seanchan history. Oh, we'll still see plotlines involving the White and Black Towers. And also the ToG flushed out as well. But we will probably also see some flashes of Seanchan involving the actual ToM.

[Ashaman Kovan]

The title of the next book in WOT is called the Towers of Midnight. This is an indicator that the Black Tower will feature heavily (as will the Tower of Ghenji and Tuon allying with Rand).

 

 

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere here that the next book is planned to be Towers of Midnight, but The Three Towers was also possibility.  Well, which three?  The White Tower and the Black Tower are obvious.  Which is the third? 

 

Since the AS have reunited, there's really no more Rebel Tower.  I can't think of any sort of "tower" that applies to the Seanchan or anyone else.  To me, that leaves the Tower of Gengi. 

 

That seems like three clear tower storylines for that next book.  I can't wait to see what happens in the Black Tower. 

 

There are the Towers of Midnight in Seanchan. The city they are located in is Imfaral. The Towers of Midnight are basically a fortress that served as the original base of operations for Luthair when his conquest began. It was also his original capitol before he took Seandar as his capitol. Actually the Towers of Midnight hold a very significant place in Seanchan history. Oh, we'll still see plotlines involving the White and Black Towers. And also the ToG flushed out as well. But we will probably also see some flashes of Seanchan involving the actual ToM.

 

RJ said we would ever see the mainland of Seanchan again in the main series.

[thewalrus777]

The title of the next book in WOT is called the Towers of Midnight. This is an indicator that the Black Tower will feature heavily (as will the Tower of Ghenji and Tuon allying with Rand).

 

 

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere here that the next book is planned to be Towers of Midnight, but The Three Towers was also possibility.  Well, which three?  The White Tower and the Black Tower are obvious.  Which is the third? 

 

Since the AS have reunited, there's really no more Rebel Tower.  I can't think of any sort of "tower" that applies to the Seanchan or anyone else.  To me, that leaves the Tower of Gengi. 

 

That seems like three clear tower storylines for that next book.  I can't wait to see what happens in the Black Tower. 

 

There are the Towers of Midnight in Seanchan. The city they are located in is Imfaral. The Towers of Midnight are basically a fortress that served as the original base of operations for Luthair when his conquest began. It was also his original capitol before he took Seandar as his capitol. Actually the Towers of Midnight hold a very significant place in Seanchan history. Oh, we'll still see plotlines involving the White and Black Towers. And also the ToG flushed out as well. But we will probably also see some flashes of Seanchan involving the actual ToM.

 

RJ said we would ever see the mainland of Seanchan again in the main series.

 

Hey, it's only wishful thinking...