Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[Luckers]

Where the frak is this guy? Go.

[maradon]

Demandred said that he had an army under his command, coupled to the fact that we haven't seen his alter ego, we can rule out some options;

• Taim and the Black Tower
  
• The Borderlander army as we met the leaders in a previous book
  
• I believe that we have met the person that hired Talmanes so that he could unite Murandy (correct me if I am wrong), so this rules out Murandy
  
• Women are in charge of the Sea Folk
  
• The Clan Chiefs all defer to Rand, and the Shaido have been broken
  
• The Seanchan are in ruins in their native country, or are under the control of Tuon
  
• Andor is under Elaynes control
  
• The WT is now under Egwenes control
  
• Ilian, Tear and Cairhien are all under Rands control
  
• Any remaining Domani troops are under the control of Ituralde
  

 

This leaves one option, Shara. What do we know of Shara? Every 4 years the King or Queen dies and the other takes over (this is controlled by the women who can channel). These women keep all men who can channel to use them to breed, then kill them at a certain age (I think it was something like 21).

 

We also know from Rhuarc (again I'm not to sure about that) that there was upheaval in Shara, which apparently never happens. This coupled to the fact that it is out of the way and Rand is not realy concentrating on it makes it a perfect place for one of the forsaken to hide and build up an army.

 

I think we may see Rand try to gain the support of the Sharan's in ToM, and consequently find Demandred and there will be a battle between them. With Demandreds hatred of Rand this would have the possiblity of being the best battle yet between the Dragon and a Chosen.

[Sentinel78]

Every 4 years the King or Queen dies and the other takes over (this is controlled by the women who can channel).

 

It's every 7 years. 

 

You left out the Legion of the Dragon -- we have no idea who is giving them their marching orders right now, just that it's comprised of Taim's rejects and is at least organized in accordance with Bashere's instructions.

[Sentinel78]

I believe that we have met the person that hired Talmanes so that he could unite Murandy (correct me if I am wrong), so this rules out Murandy

 

No, we have not met Roedran.

[imperium3]

In TGS he stated that he has armies under his command, and a secure rule. This implies that he's controlling a country. Let's see:

 

Arad Doman - Unlikely, since the place is in turmoil and until recently was Graendal's anyway.

Tarabon, Amadicia, Altara - Effectively ceased to exist since the Seanchan took over.

Ghealdan - Again, has ceased to exist

Murandy - IIRC they're in anarchy too

Illian - Controlled by Rand. Haven't heard anything from here, in ages, so I'm inclined to say Demandred ain't here.

Tear - Controlled by High Lord Darlin in Rand's name. Now this is interesting. Could Darlin be Demandred? Since most of Rand's armies are under his command, that would be a major thorn in the side of the light if it were true. I don't know what Demandred could actually get away with though, because the troops wouldn't knowingly serve the DO. So probably not likely, though would be fun if it is.

Andor - Elayne's. No chance of finding Demandred here.

Cairhien - Like Illian this place has been pretty quiet. I don't think that it's strong enough for Demandred to find it worthwhile.

Borderlands - This could explain why the Borderland armies have left the Blight. OTOH, the chances of all the Borderlanders signing up for the DO is somewhere between zero and minus infinity.

Seanchan - Not sure but I think this was Semirhage's territory. Besides, mainland Seanchan is in turmoil so not exactly "secure".

Shara - IMO quite likely. Hints have been dropped for a while that this kingdom has a part to play. Plus it's far enough away from Rand that he hasn't interfered (though IMO he might in the last two books).

Sea Folk - Unlikely. Since this is (YET another) society controlled by women where men are subservient, it might be a little tricky for Demandred to infiltrate.

 

So that leaves Tear and Shara as options for our favourite Chosen.

Have I missed anything here?

[Sentinel78]

Have I missed anything here?

 

The Isle of Madmen... but that's a real longshot.  Still, if Demandred showed up around Book 6 timeframe and said "I can protect you from the taint".... who knows.

[Luckers]

Demandred said that he had an army under his command

 

Correction, he said his rule was secure. Nothing in that states an army, or for that matter that he has directly assumed control of anything. Demandred was stated to prefer using proxies.

 

Have I missed anything here?

 

You may perhaps have missed the obvious one. The Shadow. Demandred is the single remaining great general the Shadow has. We know someone is gathering the shadowspawn--from there Demandred states his rule as secure--possibly as a reaction to someone subverting his authority and sending shadowspawn against Rand in KoD?

 

The Isle of Madmen... but that's a real longshot.  Still, if Demandred showed up around Book 6 timeframe and said "I can protect you from the taint".... who knows.

 

I waver on my opnion on this. I was the one who originally raised the issue of the Isle of the Madmen, back just after the release of the Guide which was our first realisation that it existed. Then I was fervant. I lost wind since then, yet still the arguments seem solid.

 

The reputation of men and women running mad seem very strong, and thus suggests a smokescreen. We know the Shadow is gathering and training channelers. Such a place fits.

 

Nor would it be difficult to introduce. "Demandred stalked through the halls of Blah, grimacing as thunder sounded in the distance. This inhospital little continent in the sea of storms may serve an excellent base away from the prying eyes of the Light, but the weather was terrible. One of the recruits, a fellow brought from Tear, dared to meet his eyes. Every now and then one of these fools had the gall to think they were the equal of the Chosen. They soon learned."

 

What I can do in a paragraph, Brandon could do far better in a full POV. Five pages--focusing on something other than establishing that this place exists to keep it from being a YOU NEED TO KNOW THIS chapter--and it's done. No fuss, no bother.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Darlin is going to marry Caraline.  That will make for some interesting Damodred family reunions if Darlin turns out to be Demmy.

 

Murandy and Roedran have been tossed around some, but they don't make sense.  First of all, I doubt one of the Forsaken would need the Band's help to pull together a piddly little army.  Second, what the hell has Demmy been doing for the first 7 books?  All the other Forsaken who took over a country were quick to secure their control.  The only exception is Graendal, who sowed chaos and was fostering a war between the Seanchan and Ituralde.  Murandy, on the other hand, is going in the other direction--after being a disorganized wreck for the first half of the series, it appears finally to be gaining some semblance of order.  Add that to the fact that they're far too weak for Demmy, and Murandy can be ruled out by most logical people.

 

Demmy is not with the Band or the Legion.  Both of those armies are composed of individuals highly devoted to their leaders--Mat and Rand, respectively.  Maybe a few individuals would turn against them, but the group is composed of people who came specifically to follow Mat or Rand, and they're going to remain loyal.

 

Shara and the Blight appear to be the only reasonable locations.  The whole "It's too late to introduce a new culture!" objection to Shara fails because BrS doesn't need to introduce the culture, he just needs to come up with a few hundred thousand bodies for Bashere, Mat, and co. to fight against.

[Luckers]

It took two books, with plenty of support in the three books prior, to introduce the Aiel Instance Army, and even then it was a stretch.

 

Introducing the Sharan Empire now is simply infeasible. Not in the way this story is written.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Which is why the Empire wouldn't be introduced, it would just be a flood of bodies.  How much Seanchan introduction did we get before the midpoint of TGH?  And yet there they were at Falme, pouring out into the streets, blowing things up, and chopping people to bits.

 

You give the exact quote below as "My rule is secure."  What would Demmy be "ruling" in the Blight?  If anything, the distinction between "My rule is secure" and "My army is prepared" cuts against him being in the Blight.  I do think the Blight is the second-best option, but am leaning towards Shara at this point.

[NegaWalker]

I definitely think its either:

 

1. All the Shadowspawn.

2. The Black Tower Darkfriends under Taim, with Taim being his second in command.

 

As it is, I don't think it could be either. Demandred won't bother with normal armies. He'll go for something with an edge. Trollocs and Myrdraal in an actual army controlled by Demandred's intellect will be horrifying.

 

The Black Tower is the only other likely candidate. Mesaana will probably be given the 150 Black Ajah that currently are alive and fled the tower to command.

[mossman87]

Which is why the Empire wouldn't be introduced, it would just be a flood of bodies.  How much Seanchan introduction did we get before the midpoint of TGH?  And yet there they were at Falme, pouring out into the streets, blowing things up, and chopping people to bits.

 

You give the exact quote below as "My rule is secure."  What would Demmy be "ruling" in the Blight?  If anything, the distinction between "My rule is secure" and "My army is prepared" cuts against him being in the Blight.  I do think the Blight is the second-best option, but am leaning towards Shara at this point.

 

They could pull a Lord of the Rings moment with Shara getting the Corsairs of Umbar treatment in ROTK, and surprise the Light in a flank, could be possible.

 

 

[Luckers]

Which is why the Empire wouldn't be introduced, it would just be a flood of bodies.  How much Seanchan introduction did we get before the midpoint of TGH?  And yet there they were at Falme, pouring out into the streets, blowing things up, and chopping people to bits.

 

The Seanchan at Falme served as an introduction. The Sharans cannot serve a similar purpose. It's too late.

 

You give the exact quote below as "My rule is secure."  What would Demmy be "ruling" in the Blight?  If anything, the distinction between "My rule is secure" and "My army is prepared" cuts against him being in the Blight.  I do think the Blight is the second-best option, but am leaning towards Shara at this point.

 

2. The Black Tower Darkfriends under Taim, with Taim being his second in command

 

There is considerably evidence for Taim having been raised Chosen himself. Either way Taim is his own boss.

A 'rule' is an area of authority within a greater authority. That is why it applies to the Shadowspawn--his area of authority is the armies of the Shadow, and its security has been assured in the aftermath of the subversion in KoD.

 

[imperium3]

There is considerably evidence for Taim having been raised Chosen himself. Either way Taim is his own boss.

 

I love that idea.

 

A 'rule' is an area of authority within a greater authority. That is why it applies to the Shadowspawn--his area of authority is the armies of the Shadow, and its security has been assured in the aftermath of the subversion in KoD.

 

Well yes, but what has Demandred been doing for the last 10 books? Would he be content to sit at home and mind the Trollocs while the other Chosen try to take over the world? IMO if he is not looking after the Shadow he will be working directly against Rand in some way, given his hatred of him. I would say that either he is at Tear, subverting what Rand thinks is secure, or he is in Shara, trying to make himself a bigger empire than Rand.

 

In the light of the abovementioned infeasibility of introducing Shara in anything but a supporting role, I'm sticking to my Darlin under control of Demandred theory.

 

Or maybe Weiramon is Demandred?  ;D

[Firebird]

I second the opinion that Demandred is actually the one in charge at the Black Tower. I don't buy the whole Shara thing. I just don't see a whole new culture being introduced at this stage of the story. Plus Shara is supposed to be in turmoil, yet Demandred says his rule is secure? Those statements seem to contradict each other. It is confirmed that Demandred likes to use proxies, therefore Taim working under Demandred makes the most sense to me.

[Luckers]

Quote

There is considerably evidence for Taim having been raised Chosen himself. Either way Taim is his own boss.

 

I love that idea.

 

Thanks. I was the one who suggested it--about a week after KoD came out.

 

Well yes, but what has Demandred been doing for the last 10 books? Would he be content to sit at home and mind the Trollocs while the other Chosen try to take over the world? IMO if he is not looking after the Shadow he will be working directly against Rand in some way, given his hatred of him. I would say that either he is at Tear, subverting what Rand thinks is secure, or he is in Shara, trying to make himself a bigger empire than Rand.

 

Given Demandred is stated to be a fan of using proxies I don't think he's been anywhere specific in the last ten books--he's meddling in a lot of stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to find him playing with Mesema, toying with the Borderlanders, propping up Roedan.

 

But he's not in any of those games, he's just toying them.

 

Or maybe Weiramon is Demandred?

 

Weiramon's conversation with Gedwyn does show that he is probably a darkfriend, but the pleading equality (seemingly genuine) rules out the idea that he's more than what he is... a darkfriend playing Rand by being stupid.

[imperium3]

Weiramon's conversation with Gedwyn does show that he is probably a darkfriend, but the pleading equality (seemingly genuine) rules out the idea that he's more than what he is... a darkfriend playing Rand by being stupid.

 

:o

He actually is a Darkfriend? I was joking!

 

When was this conversation? Seems I missed it.

 

EDIT:

Given Demandred is stated to be a fan of using proxies I don't think he's been anywhere specific in the last ten books--he's meddling in a lot of stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to find him playing with Mesema, toying with the Borderlanders, propping up Roedan.

 

But he's not in any of those games, he's just toying them.

 

That could work, I guess. He'd basically have taken over Ba'alzamon/Ishamael's role of Darkfriend co-ordinator? I still think he must have a base somewhere, and that isn't in the Blight.

[TBGH]

My vote is still for Taim.  With Demandred being so obsessed with Lews Therin, it makes perfect sense that when he was on his own initiative he'd try to get close to him.  And Taim did approach Rand well before Moridin took all the Forsaken in hand.

 

It also doesn't make sense that the shadow would not try to infiltrate the black tower.  I think we can safely assume that Taim is a darkfriend, the only question is if he is Demandred or just a normal guy. 

[el Nynaeve]

My vote is still for Taim.  With Demandred being so obsessed with Lews Therin, it makes perfect sense that when he was on his own initiative he'd try to get close to him.  And Taim did approach Rand well before Moridin took all the Forsaken in hand.

 

It also doesn't make sense that the shadow would not try to infiltrate the black tower.  I think we can safely assume that Taim is a darkfriend, the only question is if he is Demandred or just a normal guy. 

 

Taim is not Demandred. We have that from RJ himself. We also know that we haven't seen Demandred's alter ego yet, so that means he's not Darlin either, as someone else suggested.

 

My best guess is that he's with the Borderland army.

[Luckers]

Absorbed in one another, Weiramon and Gedwyn did not hear him riding up on them. Gedwyn was idly playing with his reins, his features cold with contempt. The Tairen was red-faced. "I don't care who you are," he was saying to the black-coated man in a low, hard voice, spittle flying, "I won't take more risk without a command direct from the lips of--"

 

Abruptly the pair became aware of Bertome, and Weiramon's mouth snapped shut. He glared as if he wanted to kill Bertome. The Asha'man's ever-present smile melted away. The wind gusted, cold and sharp as clouds drifted across the sun, but no colder than Gedwyn's sudden stare. With a small shock Bertome realized the man also wanted to strike him dead on the spot.

 

Gedwyn's icily murderous gaze did not change, but Weiramon's face underwent a remarkable transformation. The red faded slowly as he produced a smile in an instant, an oily smile with only a trace of mocking condescension.

 

Gedwyn (a known darkfriend) tries to asserts some authority over Weiramon. Weiramon denies him, asking for a higher authority. One could argue that Weiramon was speaking of Rand, yet Weiramon frequently disobeys Rand. Indeed, Weiramon speaks of taking on 'more risk' which directly defies his apparent personality in relating to Rand--he runs into risk, foolishly--thus disrupting Rand's plans.

 

Essentially if you look at Weiramon's actions, he plays the fool and in doing so frequently counter's Rand. This conversation merely shows it cleanly.

 

Quote

Given Demandred is stated to be a fan of using proxies I don't think he's been anywhere specific in the last ten books--he's meddling in a lot of stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to find him playing with Mesema, toying with the Borderlanders, propping up Roedan.

 

But he's not in any of those games, he's just toying them.

 

 

That could work, I guess. He'd basically have taken over Ba'alzamon/Ishamael's role of Darkfriend co-ordinator? I still think he must have a base somewhere, and that isn't in the Blight.

 

We know he took over Ishamael's role during book six. Moridin presumably reaserted himself, but Demdandred already would have had his fingers in many pies.

 

And I would say that if he had a focus it was the Shadowspawn, and that it was that of shich he was speaking. As for having a base--why need someone who can travel have a base?

 

 

[mike-cook]

Demandred is in the black tower. Let's see some evidence.

In the beginning of Lord of Chaos the dark one gives Demandred the order to let the lord of chaos rule. Also at the end of the book Demandred knells in the pit of doom and says "Have I not done well great lord?" implying that Demandred accomplished something in this novel to further the dark ones order of more chaos. So let's see.

1) Sammael talks to Graendal in this book and says events to the south have Demandreds mark all over them. Also Demandred always loved using proxies. Which I think to the south means the newly established black tower and the proxy would be Taim.

2) We know that Demandred, Meesana and Semirhage scheme together a lot.

3) Meesana is in the white tower and Elaida sends out an emissary to talk to Rand. Galina is leading the emissary and she is high up with the black ajah. So what i'm thinking is that Meesana gave Galina the order to kidnap Rand. Then while he's on his way back to the white tower Demandred gives Taim the order to go capture Rand. So Taim heads out gets Rand back. This is perfect for causes chaos because now Rand will never trust Aes Sedai and there will be distance between him and the white tower which it has pretty much been since then, Rand does not trust Aes Sedai not even Egwene now.

4) At the the end of Knife of Dreams Taim said "Let the lord of chaos rule..." which i'm pretty sure we've only heard Demandred say so far have we not?

5) Demandred says his rule is secure, we march for war. Is there a more deadly force in the world other then the Asha'man? Especially when pretty much every full rank Asha'man stays in Taim's palace. It is only logical that Demandred would control Taim and the black tower.

 

Any thoughts??

[Vulgir]

Demandred i have felt this whole time has been using Masma as a proxy, i know this doesnt support where he is now, but there is evidence in TGS that suggestes that Demandred was tricking Masma, also if this is the case it can rule out that Demandred is involved with the Seanchan, in regards to Sammaels comment to Graendal regaurding events to the South, i think that refferes to The Prophet and not BT, though i do think that Taim is a proxy for Demandred.

[Firebird]

Demandred is in the black tower. Let's see some evidence. (snipped)

 

I agree 100% with your reasoning. I think you've summed it up well!

[mike-cook]

It makes the most sense.

I mean if he has nothing to do with the Black Tower then what the hell did he do that was so important in Lord of Chaos?

Also with using Taim as a proxy it gives Demandred more freedom to do other things.

Such as leading the huge Trolloc army that is being gathered in the borderlands?

[imperium3]

Demandred is in the black tower. Let's see some evidence.

In the beginning of Lord of Chaos the dark one gives Demandred the order to let the lord of chaos rule. Also at the end of the book Demandred knells in the pit of doom and says "Have I not done well great lord?" implying that Demandred accomplished something in this novel to further the dark ones order of more chaos. So let's see.

1) Sammael talks to Graendal in this book and says events to the south have Demandreds mark all over them. Also Demandred always loved using proxies. Which I think to the south means the newly established black tower and the proxy would be Taim.

2) We know that Demandred, Meesana and Semirhage scheme together a lot.

3) Meesana is in the white tower and Elaida sends out an emissary to talk to Rand. Galina is leading the emissary and she is high up with the black ajah. So what i'm thinking is that Meesana gave Galina the order to kidnap Rand. Then while he's on his way back to the white tower Demandred gives Taim the order to go capture Rand. So Taim heads out gets Rand back. This is perfect for causes chaos because now Rand will never trust Aes Sedai and there will be distance between him and the white tower which it has pretty much been since then, Rand does not trust Aes Sedai not even Egwene now.

4) At the the end of Knife of Dreams Taim said "Let the lord of chaos rule..." which i'm pretty sure we've only heard Demandred say so far have we not?

5) Demandred says his rule is secure, we march for war. Is there a more deadly force in the world other then the Asha'man? Especially when pretty much every full rank Asha'man stays in Taim's palace. It is only logical that Demandred would control Taim and the black tower.

 

Any thoughts??

 

He can't be in the Black Tower. Remember, in WH Demandred didn't recognise the Asha'man for what they were, even though they had the trademark black coats. So he can't have been visiting that part of the world recently.