Herid Fel

[danis]

I reckon Herid knew more than that Rand had to break all the seals in order to fight the Dark One. Surely it would be advantageous to the DO if he were free. Why would the DO send a gholam to kill Herid if Herid's knowledge would help him break free?

[The Traveler]

I've personally believed for a long time that sealing the bore has nothing to do with Rand's ability to channel and everything to do with his Pattern guiding abilities as Ta'veren.

 

This requires a much more physical concept of the pattern than is usually taken. Here's the idea:

 

The pattern itself is the DO's Prison, walls woven of lives and actions that seal the DO (without) from the Wheel & OP (within). When the bore was created it formed a hole or passage through this wall that allowed the DO access.

 

Since LTT used the OP to seal it, it held the bore in place but couldn't heal it. It also allowed a moment of access directly to Saidin, hence the taint.

 

In the Last Battle Rand has to use his Thread pulling abilities to gather as many people as possible and move their life threads to the site of the bore after removing the imperfect Saidin seal.

 

Then he has to die. (or at least lose his Ta'Veren abilities) in accordance with the Die to Live and blood on the rock references. Doing so will release these bunched up life threads to expand and spread over the gap, remaking the seal as perfect as the Creator.

 

 

As a side not, I think the reason Trollocs, Gholoms, etc. can't go through gateways is due to their weak connection to the pattern. While Humans are tightly bound to the fabric the threads of these dark creations are more or less just laid on top of the weave as loose strings that are easily snapped and lost by jumping across it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Excellent points, The Traveler. Let me add a few more in support.

 

The imperfect seal formed by Saidin is probably actually blocking the Bore open at this point. Herid Fel said that the rubble must be cleared before building.

 

Also, regarding the importance of ta'veren[/i} in defeating the Dark One ... Moridin's only instructions to the Chosen at their last meeting involved killing ... tada ... the other two strong ta'veren who incidentally must be at Tar'mon Gaidon in order for Rand to win. Belief and ORDER give strength. The Pattern embodies order, and ta'veren are its tools for restoring order when the weave has become chaotic.

 

It seems clear that the Pattern itself is the Dark One's prison. Otherwise, why would he want to break the Wheel? Which brings up my favorite point. The people being deceived the worst are the Chosen themselves, Moridin excepted. They think they will rule when the Dark One is victorious. But they will simply be among the last destroyed. He's not called the Father of Lies for nothing. That's why Moridin/Ishamael is best suited to be Nae'blis. He's insane. He probably knows he'll cease to exist and he doesn't care. Look at the titles of the books written by Elan Morin Tedronai ... "Analysis of Percieved Meaning" "Reality and the Absence of Meaning" "Disassembly of Reason". Not exactly perky, and implying a heavy leaning toward a belief that existence is meaningless. Since he's over the out bonkers, he would be ok with the destrustion of reality. Which is, I think, the Dark One's plan.

[The Traveler]

IIRC Nae'Blis translates to 'Last to Die' which would be indicative that the entire pattern must be wiped out for the Dark One to escape completely.

[cannon]

IIRC Nae'Blis translates to 'Last to Die' which would be indicative that the entire pattern must be wiped out for the Dark One to escape completely.

 

That translation of Nae'blis is nothing more than a theory, proposed as part of the larger theory that the pattern is the DO's prison. You can find it near the end of the FAQ section on the seals.

 

Please do not start adopting supposition as fact. It only breeds ignorance.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, that translation is based on speculation, I've neither seen nor read any "authoritative" translation of it. In fact, I doubt thats what it means. The "Chosen" all speak the Old Tongue, so they would know, and that would sort of be like posting a sign "YOU WILL BE BETRAYED AND KILLED". I DO think that that will be the EFFECT of having that position, though. As to Rand remaking the Wheel, thats ridiculous. He's TIED to the Wheel. He can't really destroy and remake something that he is part of. The Wheel is self repairing. Rand's contribution will be to clear away the block, and somehow keep the Dark One from interfering while the Pattern self corrects.

 

Now HERE's some speculation.

 

Maybe Rand has to fight the Dark One WHILE HE'S DEAD. The Dark One is the Lord of the Grave after all. Maybe once the patch is clear, Rand dies and holds the Dark One's attention wherever dead people hang out while the Pattern fixes itself. I'm really not sure how he'll get back though. Unless ....

 

Here's some REALLY wild speculation.

 

Maybe he dies, and gets spun right back out again as Elayne's son. Wouldn't THAT be creepy.

[racha_giurgiu]

"Analysis of Percieved Meaning" "Reality and the Absence of Meaning" "Disassembly of Reason".

 

Has anyone done a comparison analysis of Moridin and Frederich Nietzche? They are both fairly existential minded people and it would be itereseting to compare Moridin to some of the existential philosophers.

[Luckers]

As good a writer as RJ is, one of his characters is no compitition for the obscurity of the mind of Friedrich Nietzsche. He wasn't really an existentialists either. He might be called a pre-cursor to postmodernism, though thats not really accurate either.

[racha_giurgiu]

Techinically Nietzsche was considered one of the first existentialists. He inspired Soren Kirkegaard, Satre, and several others in their writings along the same lines. I spent way too much time in school studying philosophy to let that one slip by.

 

Anyway, i was specifically looking at the book by Moridin in AOL "Reality and the Absence of Meaning." Nietzsche explored how existing was meaning enough. Which strikes me very much like Moridin. Nietszche and Moridin have more interest in the here and now in comparison to the afterlife. After reality there is an absence of meaning. I think it's a fairly small step to deduce that they go hand in hand.

 

The theory goes that only Ishy/Moridin is crazy enough to suppose that there wil be nothing left after that last Battle. I don't think Moridin goes as far as nihilism because he doesn't have that "Let's just give up." way of thinking. It's about the present.

[Luckers]

He inspired hitler, doesn't make him a Nazi. I'm sorry, i just don't see how you can tie him in with existentialism... in any branch. That those writers would have been massively influenced i dont doubt, but that nietzsche would have fit in any of the branches of existentialism... its not only implausible, its a complete betrayal of his position. I mean two of those branches are strongly christian for pity's sake...

 

His strongest influence is, and remains, in the postmodern paradigm. Roland Barthes, Baulldriard, Michel Foucault, but even that doesn't fit. He instigated a number of ideologies, but in truth belongs to none.

 

The nature of his treatise on the will to power, including both Beyond Good and Evil and Thus Spake Tharasthustra, completely defies Moridin's stance. Nietzsche would concider Moridin the most foolish of creatures. A person who acted in a manner opposite to their own best interest. Moreover, to their own continued survival. Moridin's stance, that the over all philosophical fulfilment, would be a complete anathma to Nietzschean philosophy--don't mistake his toying with nihilism to be anything other then what it is. Toying.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It doesn't really make sense to correlate Moridin's actions/attitudes with any real earth philosopher's because Moridin has been exposed to the Dark One. I don't believe that Moridin is a creature of entirely free will. In aCoS when he is spying on Sammael and Graendal, they do something, he ponders a decision, saa run across his eyes, and then he decides. I think his will is being subsumed.

 

Other than that, it is premature to conclude what the basis of his theology/philosophy is based simply on the titles of three books.

[racha_giurgiu]

i wasn't basing his whole philosphy on it. i was noting a similarity that struck me. it got out of hand and I apologize. I spent some time reading Nietszche and what I read in the forum about Moridin made me think of a similarity. Nothing beyond this life, nothing beyond existing. Both were okay with that realization and that is all i wanted to point out.

[Luckers]

Lol, no need to apologise. Tell me im wrong and idiot if you think so. :)

 

I'm kinda overly-passionate about some things. It gets bad. Sorry.

 

Robert, I actually like the idea of Moridin being totally aware of what he is doing, and totally free to choose it. It makes him infinitely more interesting.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah I agree that it would be more interesting, I just don't think its the case.

[Guest Majsju]

Nietzsche would concider Moridin the most foolish of creatures. A person who acted in a manner opposite to their own best interest. Moreover, to their own continued survival. Moridin's stance, that the over all philosophical fulfilment, would be a complete anathma to Nietzschean philosophy--don't mistake his toying with nihilism to be anything other then what it is. Toying.

 

You seem to base that on your own theory what the DO actually plans. However, nothing in the books suggests that the DO plans to destroy the world.

 

On the contrary, what we do know is that the DO plans to destroy the Wheel, and remake the world in his own image. Now, what sense would it be to remake the world if everyone is dead? Ruling over an empty world seems like...a not so interseting concept, not even for a deity like the DO.

 

So, it is highly likely that a good number of people will live, and that would mean that the position as Nae'blis would continue to carry a lot of power, although quite different from what it is now.

[RobertAlexWillis]

On the contrary, what we do know is that the DO plans to destroy the Wheel, and remake the world in his own image. Now, what sense would it be to remake the world if everyone is dead? Ruling over an empty world seems like...a not so interseting concept, not even for a deity like the DO.

 

Actually, for a deity like the Dark One is described as being (that was an awkward turn of phrase), it fits the bill perfectly.

 

Robert Jordan described the Dark One as an "ur-control freak". The "bad things" that happen around the Pit of Doom are not the result some kind of bad resonance with the Bore, but the Dark One intentionally lashing out at any and everyone who tried to manipulate things without his consent.

 

 

From Tor's Questions of the week, posted on Wotmania:

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's POVs that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

 

Robert Jordan Answers:It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

 

Look at how he treats the True Power. No one can use it without his express permission, and approval for each use.

 

Now, what is the ultimate expression of that mindset? What is the only universe in which any being can have TOTAL control? A universe in which one is the ONLY being.

 

If the Creator and the Dark One truly are opposites, then where the Creator "creates", the Dark One must "destroy".

 

This is part of the reason why I believe that the Dark One seeks to reduce the total number of consciousnesses in the world as a part of his plan for breaking out. The simple existence of other, separate consciousnesses is part of what holds him imprisoned.

 

This is also why i think the saa are the representation of one's will being subsumed as the price of frequently accessing the True Power. At every opportunity, the Dark One robs others of their "self".

[Guest Majsju]

Look at how he treats the True Power. No one can use it without his express permission, and approval for each use.

 

Now, what is the ultimate expression of that mindset? What is the only universe in which any being can have TOTAL control? A universe in which one is the ONLY being.

 

If the Creator and the Dark One truly are opposites, then where the Creator "creates", the Dark One must "destroy".

 

This is part of the reason why I believe that the Dark One seeks to reduce the total number of consciousnesses in the world as a part of his plan for breaking out. The simple existence of other, separate consciousnesses is part of what holds him imprisoned.

 

This is also why i think the saa are the representation of one's will being subsumed as the price of frequently accessing the True Power. At every opportunity, the Dark One robs others of their "self".

 

First of all, you misinterpret the opposite to creation. That the opposite is destruction is a rather new, and very western mindset. A far more common view, and a view that fits way better with WOT is that the opposite to creation is Chaos. Most older creation myths describe just that, how the world is created out of Chaos.

 

Now, it's been strongly hinted throughout the books that the DO gains power from an increase in Chaos. However, maintaining Chaos is a pretty darn hard thing to do if you're the only kid on the block. It could have worked if the DO's goal had been complete annihilation of everything that exists, not only the Wheel. But as it seems the DO wants to remake the world rather than destroy it, there has to be something left in that world.

 

After all, if what the DO strived for was total control over his own existence and his own surroundings, withot any living beings around him, he would already have that in his prison.

[RobertAlexWillis]

First of all, you misinterpret the opposite to creation. That the opposite is destruction is a rather new, and very western mindset. A far more common view, and a view that fits way better with WOT is that the opposite to creation is Chaos. Most older creation myths describe just that, how the world is created out of Chaos.

 

Actually, my view of "creation" is linked to the Hebrew idea of "Barau", which means to organize out of Chaos. From chaos, bring about order. Chaos, an idea I equate with the physical term "entropy" is a total lack of organization. A self-conscious human is just about the most complex, organized thing, in a physical sense, that exists. In order to bring about a state of entropy, current organized systems must be broken down. "Small increases in chaos are as important as large ones" and famously "Let the Lord of Chaos rule". In order for Chaos to predominate, humans are the first things out the window.

 

Now, it's been strongly hinted throughout the books that the DO gains power from an increase in Chaos. However, maintaining Chaos is a pretty darn hard thing to do if you're the only kid on the block. It could have worked if the DO's goal had been complete annihilation of everything that exists, not only the Wheel. But as it seems the DO wants to remake the world rather than destroy it, there has to be something left in that world.

 

Why? In a universe with only Shai'tan, there is no one else to build or create or organize anything. And he wants to remake the WHEEL, not the world. The Wheel is Time. He wants to change all of history, rewrite what has happened and what will happen, every age in His image. Remaking the Wheel IS destroying the current Wheel.

 

After all, if what the DO strived for was total control over his own existence and his own surroundings, withot any living beings around him, he would already have that in his prison.

 

But he is aware that there is something out there over which he has no control. It is the awareness of other awarenesses that irritates him.

[Luckers]

You make a valid point Maj, though my comments on Nietzsche hold. Nietzsche and Moridin would not mix, whichever of the two states turn out to be right.

[Guest Majsju]

Actually, my view of "creation" is linked to the Hebrew idea of "Barau", which means to organize out of Chaos. From chaos, bring about order. Chaos, an idea I equate with the physical term "entropy" is a total lack of organization. A self-conscious human is just about the most complex, organized thing, in a physical sense, that exists. In order to bring about a state of entropy, current organized systems must be broken down. "Small increases in chaos are as important as large ones" and famously "Let the Lord of Chaos rule". In order for Chaos to predominate, humans are the first things out the window.

 

Entropy is a natural state that everything eventually will turn into, if the assumption that information can not be destroyed is correct. As long as there is life, the amount of entropy will continue to increase, so if the DO thrives on entropy, it would be very stupid to annihilate humanity, because that would more or less put an end to that increase.

 

At least that's how it would be in a universe with our laws, it might be somewhat different in RJ's universe, some laws are bound to be different in a universe where time is cyklic.

 

Why? In a universe with only Shai'tan, there is no one else to build or create or organize anything. And he wants to remake the WHEEL, not the world. The Wheel is Time. He wants to change all of history, rewrite what has happened and what will happen, every age in His image. Remaking the Wheel IS destroying the current Wheel.

 

He wants to remake the World. In order to do so he must destroy the Wheel. As long as the Wheel exists, the time is cyklic, which means that major change is impossible. Destroying the Wheel means a transition from cyklic to linear time, and with linear time change is possible. A change that the DO has total control over.

 

However, it's important to keep in mind that the DO is not a creating deity. If he destroys the world, there is no going back.

 

 

You make a valid point Maj, though my comments on Nietzsche hold. Nietzsche and Moridin would not mix, whichever of the two states turn out to be right.

 

Oh, I never meant that they would mix, I agree that they don't, but not for the reasons you brought up.

 

Although, there are a few points that they have in common. For example I think we can say that Moridin would happily agree with Nietzsche's thoughts regarding morality, although with a slightly twisted view of them.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... we disagree. Thats not anything new though. :)

[konatown]

Hi, this is my first post, yet I've been reading these boards for a while. This thread happened to catch my eye during my most recent bout with insomnia.

 

I have an inkling suspicion that the Taint on Saidin was not in retaliation for sealing the bore but actually as a punishment for LTT using the True Power to create the seals. I suppose that the 7 seals contain some large amount of the True Power. As they weaken, the DO grows in power because he absorbs the True Power leaking from the seals.

Going with this train of thought, the True Power is the essence of the DO, or is the DO.

Further, trapping 7 parts of TP/DO in the seals mean that the DO is still in the world, albeit in a slightly removed sort.

So in theory, to break the seals would mean to release all of the remaining True Power out of the world. Then the DO could be re-imprisoned as a whole entity.

 

All of that only works if the TP can be contained in cuellindar (Spelling check please?), much the same as Saidin and/or Saidar can be contained in each other. I believe we have proof S & S can act as a container when Rand cleanses the Saidin. Something about Herid Fel and Rand discussing what he would need to channel.

 

In conclusion, the DO is TP, part of the DO is trapped in 7 seals, Rand must rid the world of remaining TP, Herid Fel knew this but was killed before he could make it apparent.

[Osangar1282083176]

I have an inkling suspicion that the Taint on Saidin was not in retaliation for sealing the bore but actually as a punishment for LTT using the True Power to create the seals.

 

your idea is flawed. let me tell you why. the true power is derived directly from the DO, and is used only with his consent. no way would he be willing to give any one the power to imprison himself. and theres no way that anyone mortal could be able to just "take" it from him. besides even those insane enough to trade their souls for power greatly fear the use of the true power and will not willingly use it, except at great need, and these are the people he "wants" to use the true power. i think no one other than a dark friend could, or would, dare to use the true power. sorry but there it is.

[Gandaal]

Hi, this is my first post, yet I've been reading these boards for a while. This thread happened to catch my eye during my most recent bout with insomnia.

 

I have an inkling suspicion that the Taint on Saidin was not in retaliation for sealing the bore but actually as a punishment for LTT using the True Power to create the seals. I suppose that the 7 seals contain some large amount of the True Power. As they weaken, the DO grows in power because he absorbs the True Power leaking from the seals.

Going with this train of thought, the True Power is the essence of the DO, or is the DO.

Further, trapping 7 parts of TP/DO in the seals mean that the DO is still in the world, albeit in a slightly removed sort.

So in theory, to break the seals would mean to release all of the remaining True Power out of the world. Then the DO could be re-imprisoned as a whole entity.

 

All of that only works if the TP can be contained in cuellindar (Spelling check please?), much the same as Saidin and/or Saidar can be contained in each other. I believe we have proof S & S can act as a container when Rand cleanses the Saidin. Something about Herid Fel and Rand discussing what he would need to channel.

 

In conclusion, the DO is TP, part of the DO is trapped in 7 seals, Rand must rid the world of remaining TP, Herid Fel knew this but was killed before he could make it apparent.

The "True Power" isn't as impartial as the One Power. The true power also isn't a random gift that appears among the general population in varying strengths (likely due to a "One Power" gene). The Dark One chooses who wields it and any act using it would have to meet with his approval (an example might be Messana attempting to attack Shadar Haran with the "True Power". Because the Dark One is unlikely to want his Fade representative to cark it nothing would happen).

 

Therefore it’s highly unlikely that a) The DO would give his great enemy and leader of the fight against his rule and freedom access to his power, and b) that he would approve of the renewal of his prison and the capture and imprisoning of his main generals on earth.

[konatown]

I have an inkling suspicion that the Taint on Saidin was not in retaliation for sealing the bore but actually as a punishment for LTT using the True Power to create the seals.

 

your idea is flawed. let me tell you why. the true power is derived directly from the DO' date=' and is used only with his consent. no way would he be willing to give any one the power to imprison himself. and theres no way that anyone mortal could be able to just "take" it from him. besides even those insane enough to trade their souls for power greatly fear the use of the true power and will not willingly use it, except at great need, and these are the people he "wants" to use the true power. i think no one other than a dark friend could, or would, dare to use the true power. sorry but there it is. [/quote']

 

Hmm, I've been glancing through the texts to find where it defines the TP as deriving from the DO. You probably are correct on this, I just haven't found any proof either way yet.

 

But what if the DO was derived from the TP?