Cadsuane, Nynaeve and Min. (Full Book Spoilers)

[mossman87]

 

Question 3 - Is the jury still out on Cadsuane being Black Ajah?

 

The matter is settled. Cadsuane is not Black.

How do we know this?

 

At some point in one of Verin's POVs she thinks something similar in meaning to the following [can't find a quote now, sure though that someone will] :

 

"... it's nice to finally be sure of Cadsuane ..."

 

That in conjunction with Verin's book, is everything we need.

 

 

Yes, and previous Verin PoVs led people to the Absolute Conclusion that there was no way Verin could have been black (from that same PoV, in fact).

And aside from her own PoV there was nothing to suspect Elza, and every reason to think she was a good guy (she even blasted a forsaken) because she was so hell-bent on getting Rand to the Last Battle.

 

We haven't seen a darkfriend (I'm not counting Verin simply because she was apparently coerced into the BA) who WANTS the DO to lose. But really it's logical. If the DO wants to stop the wheel and kill the snake (which was extensively discussed in the second if not first book), wouldn't that mean his followers are all toast if it happens? MOST of the DO followers aren't necessarily evil, they're just so incredibly self-serving that they may as well be evil. They're not all puppy-eating family killers. Asmodean, a bloody forsaken, was jsut there 'cuz he wanted to learn more music, and when it was obvious he wasn't gonna be able to stay on the dark side, he hung with the light. Many of the darkfriends have killed family members, but when threatened with painful deaths themselves, some degree of self-preservation (and these are selfish people to begin with) sets in.

 

Hell, I'd argue that masema was worse than most darkfriends and he was apparently NOT a darkfriend (by PoVs, and since he's dead now I'm thinking that story's over).

 

If Caddy were black she's more than intelligent enough to come to the conclusion that maybe the Dark One losing this battle isn't such a bad plan.

 

Verin isn't infalliable - she missed at least six blacks, and cadsuane was out of the tower almost longer than Verin was in it. PLUS with BA suspicion at an alltime high, she's probably covering her butt more than normal.

 

The usual dead giveaway for BA is "Great Lord" v. "Dark One", but even Verin thought of him as the Dark One.

 

The borderlands regrets are probably having to do with the fact that Moiraine managed to tie herself to Rand and had Caddy been more aware she'd have gotten the list right then and there - It's a pretty easy leap. The rest of the borderland activity seemed to be BA involved, so I question what she really was doing up there.

 

Siuan and Moiraine both think she's black (it's been expressed in both of their PoVs IIRC). Moiraine tends to be right on these things.

 

Maybe she has to be there at the last battle to balefire Caddy. And that'd give the asha'man a good chuckle AND teach them a valuable lesson. Don't F#$% with the chick that knows balefire.

 

My problem is though, what evidence is there to Cadsuane being BA besides her being unlikable?

 

And no, I don't take characters expressing the thought as evidence.

[grolm]

Yes, and previous Verin PoVs led people to the Absolute Conclusion that there was no way Verin could have been black (from that same PoV, in fact).

And aside from her own PoV there was nothing to suspect Elza, and every reason to think she was a good guy (she even blasted a forsaken) because she was so hell-bent on getting Rand to the Last Battle.

 

Actually there were several Elza POV scenes with proof that she was black. She is seen thinking (I forget which book) that she had to protect Rand because he had to make it to the Last Battle alive so the Great Lord could defeat him. Big clue she is black if she thinks of the Dark One as the Great Lord. In that same scene she also tells her warder some people will have to die soon, and that he should kill anyone who threatens Rand. Again, because she wants the Dark One to defeat the Dragon Reborn.

 

In another book, she is thinking about the cleansing scene and shows she doesn't know that Dashiva was actually being impersonated by a Forsaken. She is worried the GLOTD will hold her to account for helping the Dragon Reborn, but specifically dimisses Dashiva, not knowing he was a Forsaken at that point.

[feliasgrimm]

Yes, and previous Verin PoVs led people to the Absolute Conclusion that there was no way Verin could have been black (from that same PoV, in fact).

And aside from her own PoV there was nothing to suspect Elza, and every reason to think she was a good guy (she even blasted a forsaken) because she was so hell-bent on getting Rand to the Last Battle.

 

Actually there were several Elza POV scenes with proof that she was black. She is seen thinking (I forget which book) that she had to protect Rand because he had to make it to the Last Battle alive so the Great Lord could defeat him. Big clue she is black if she thinks of the Dark One as the Great Lord. In that same scene she also tells her warder some people will have to die soon, and that he should kill anyone who threatens Rand. Again, because she wants the Dark One to defeat the Dragon Reborn.

 

In another book, she is thinking about the cleansing scene and shows she doesn't know that Dashiva was actually being impersonated by a Forsaken. She is worried the GLOTD will hold her to account for helping the Dragon Reborn, but specifically dimisses Dashiva, not knowing he was a Forsaken at that point.

Which is why I said "aside from her own PoV"...

 

Firstly, Cadsuane's age. Part can be explained by her having more power. Part could be explained by her removing her oaths (and I only saw two from Verin - is it a different three or have mentions just said "different oaths"? It would make a difference, since logical assumption would be that if three oaths hurts you, one less is one less thing hurting you).

Secondly, the level of obsession. All the other blacks have seemed to have a lot of obsessive traits.

Thirdly, the thoughts of other characters around her, particularly moiraine and verin. Verin to the point where she was about to KILL Cadsuane (although.. and this is a stretch.. she MIGHT have sold out the other BAs to further her own plan and that plan COULD have involved a BLACK Cadsuane.. maybe the "it's nice to be sure" was actually Verin catching caddy in a lie, thus proving BA). Simple boring suspicion wouldn't lead her to being ready to KILL another AS, you'd have to be fairly sure about it before you'd be sitting there about to poison the drink.

Fourth - A lot of her history and background is unclear and mysterious. Part of that is the typical cadsuane and/or Aes Sedai BS, but some bits of it just sound shady. PLUS the BA would want someone ordered to tie themselves to Rand, a position which hasn't been occupied yet BY a black.

 

Other than that, it's just hunch.

[Sharaman]

Whatever - Cadsuane's POV states quite clearly that once 20 years ago, she had thought that she had nailed the Black Ajah only to find them slipping through her fingers. That means that whatever she may be, she is not BA.

 

[Impressive Bosom]

i have a feeling cadsuane has more humble pie to eat yet, served up by moiraine

 

God, I just get chills thinking about Moraine's return. I hope its worth the wait.

[Impressive Bosom]

See, I thought Cadsuane was fine -- and actually less of an evil *bleep* than before.  She showed some signs of empathy.  Also remember that Cadsuane -has- bullied people before.  Yes, not with the Power but she has.  I don't see her actions there as different than usual for her.

 

My biggest problem with Cadsuane (in this book) is that she always seemed like this mysterious woman with knowledge that no one else had... like she had a very specific plan for what was to come and what she must do... and lately - in this book in partcular - one gets the impression that she's just flailing around and making it up as she goes along. She has gone IMO from one of the most pivotal characters in the book to just another annoying AS trying to pull strings she doesn't fully understand. It was a real disappointment because I thought when she first appeared she had such potential. I could easily have seen her in the role of trusted advisor and even the leader of the Green Ajah in the Last Battle.

 

I understand that BS might not have as good a handle (or liking) on Cads as RJ did... but I have to believe that if she had had a definite plan from the beginning, that would have been clear in RJ's notes and BS would have drawn upon it rather than relegating her to a handful of blundering attempts at hamfisted manipulation.

[Dakota]

On Nynaeve - and the whole scenario about AS precedence/age/power - I can't help but think how bloody annoying her & Elayne were back in Ebou Dar, insisting on precedence over Merilille & co. Now I know the old birds were annoying, too, but isn't it the Wise Ones that have it right? That your strength in the Power is your birth right, but you have to earn respect & standing? That you don't just boss people about because you can? Nynaeve is starting to really deserve high standing, now, but she needs to think that one out a bit.

 

Well, here's the thing about Nyn and Elayne in Ebou Dar.  And bear in mind it's been a while since I read this part so the details may be sketchy, but hopefully I'm getting the gist of it across.  Nyn and Elayne were sent to find the bowl by the Amyrlin, whereas the other AS were sent by the hall to help.  Nyn and Elayne were put in charge of the whole expedition, yet they were continuously being undermined by the other AS with their whole "Well, they're not -really- AS" mentality, keeping information from them that they needed to know, and so on.  Nyn and Elayne, when they put the smackdown, didn't do it becase "We're in charge because we're stronger than you", it was "We're in charge because we were put in charge by the Amyrlin".  They were insisting on precedence because the Queen Bitch of the AS put them in charge, not because they were stronger in power

[Morsmordre]

Duh, sorry for not reading all the comments but I got sick of so many people of you repeating that BS didn't write Cadsuane properly :/ To me, this was exactly the way he had to do it. Everything is changing. Rand changes everything. Cadsuane did have experience with channeling men but she didn't have any experience with the Dragon Reborn. There is something very interesting mentioned in TGS. Cadsuane said that she wanted to teach him how to control his anger. Then I remembered one of the requirements for passing the test for the shawl. Aes Sedai have to be serene, calm, under control. The test is not how good you split the weaves, but how able you are to control your emotions. As Graendal said it, there is time for emotions and Aes Sedai have emotions. Only they have learned to control them.

What Cadsuane did to Rand was the way men embrace saidin. Moiraine explains to Egweene the reason for her obedience to Rand: 'because I learned how to control saidar'. And Egweene said it - in order to control saidar, you must firstly learn how to obey it. Cadsuane tried to seize saidin and saidin smashed her. Her character is extremely interesting to me. I think that in ToM we will find out that Moiraine's encounter of Cadsuane at the inn in New Spring wasn't the only one. I think that Cadsuane is more familiar to Moiraine than we know. In CoS I believe Cadsuane thinks that Moiraine had made her job more difficult.

Even if RJ hadn't died, he would have have to change Cadsuane's behaviour. I think Brandon did his job perfectly. Cadsuane has become sloppy. She is no more trying to embrace saidar, instead, she is trying to seize saidin. And women can't seize saidin (yes, I know they actually can, but this is just a metaphor).

 

I've always loved Nyneave. She's my favorite character from the women. They all try to treat her as a girl and she's trying so hard to prove herself but I think that Cadsuane has started to think of her as capable. More capable than Merise and the others. Nyneave is no more so hasty to talk when she shouldn't. Instead, she thinks over what is said and manages to end the conversation with one sentence. I loved the moment when she defended Rand in front of Merise and Corelle when they were all watching the lights. Cadsuane had been broken. Nyneave hasn't. This is the difference between them. This is why Nyneave will be much better Aes Sedai than Cadsuane.

 

I liked it when Min finally understood that she is no barrier to anybody with her knives... Thom and Matt are dangerous, Min is not. She shouldn't have stopped taking care of Rand. He needed her more than ever and she abandoned him. Foolish girl. I've always wanted to see her dead, I even thought that Rand was going to kill her. I was shouting NO because I didn't want Rand to be the one who has killed one of the three he loved. I wanted Semirhage to kill her. Good thing that BS didn't write it that way - he would have made a huge mistake. From all the Dreamings and Viewings, we know that Min, Aviendha and Elayne are all alive when Rand dies. I don't know how Rand could still be loving Elayne. It's unfair that she had such a short time with him. Aviendha and Min at least had the time to know him.

 

PS> I'm very mad at BS for exposing the truth about Morgase in such a way :@ :@ :@ First of all, even Perrin doesn't know that Rand cares for Elayne and loves her! Second of all, Tam has no way to know that this matter is important to Rand. Third of all, just a couple of fake lines on Morgase's 'rebirth'!? This is an insult!

[Sharaman]

Cadsuane is floundering because she's now dealing with a situation that she doesn't know enough about. Saidin is clean, which alters cases. Rand has also changed from being a young man who knows little of the world of politics or about the Power, into an unpredictable insane guy, who knows one helluva lot about various things. It's Cadsuane, who is now the ignorant one.

 

Nyn has surely grown up a lot. Enough? Who knows?

 

It would be narrative-convenient maybe for Min to pop off - Avi and Elayne have no hassles sharing Rand and the relationship can sort of be slotted into their respective cultures. But there are still visions to be fulfilled....

 

 

[Dakota]

PS> I'm very mad at BS for exposing the truth about Morgase in such a way :@ :@ :@ First of all, even Perrin doesn't know that Rand cares for Elayne and loves her! Second of all, Tam has no way to know that this matter is important to Rand. Third of all, just a couple of fake lines on Morgase's 'rebirth'!? This is an insult!

 

While perhaps yes, a bit disappointing, I'm not nearly as ticked about this bit as many people are.  What's wrong with learning about it the same way that Rand learned about it?  Not every important thing a person learns in their life is accompanied by a flash of lightning and bells ringing down from the heavens, sometimes it is from an offhand "Oh, by the way" remark.

 

Regardless, I'm sure we'll see this scene firsthand in the next book.

[Diederichos]

I know a lot of people compare how Moirane treated Rand and how Cadsuane deals with him. But we should keep in mind that they both dealt with different Rands. In book 4 and especially in book 5, Moiraine was dealing with a Rand just beginning to understand and utilize the full extent of his power, someone who was willing to use his position but that wasn't entirely comfortable with it, and to a certain degree someone who was still sane.

 

Compare that to Cadsuane's Rand. The guy is moody, stressed to the brink of the breaking point, arrogant(don't deny it now, even if he has good intentions,  he is still very much full of himself), cold, heartless and to no small degree insane. I mean, his mind freaking made up a voice he could talk to and an entirely different persona.

 

You can't superimpose one's behaviour to the other and given what how I view Moiraine up to book 5, I'm not so certain that she would be able to deal with Rand as he is now at all, let alone successfully.

[Crael123]

Moirane will be able to deal with rand because rand trusts her a lot, even Darkrand did. Nyneave and Moirane were the only aes sedai Rand ever trusted, he mentioned in Gathering Storm

[feliasgrimm]

Cadsuane's thought about Moiraine making her job harder was (iirc) in the context of that she coddled him and didn't train him to respect his aes sedai advisor. As someone else stated - Mo realized she couldn't control him as he's very much (almost literally) a force of nature and the best way to gain control over him has always been to guide rather than push, and know when to let him do his thing. I think in the entire series Mo (even more than min) was the only character that really understood Rand The Man and Rand The Dragon and the interplay of the two roles. Min I think understands Rand the Man more than anyone else, but she seems pretty clueless on Rand the Dragon, and Cadsuane in particular seems to be the opposite - She just sees a Ta'veren male channeler she has to guide.

Mo was also I think, less scheming in her way than some of the others. MOST of the AS I think would kill him if they thought it was necessary to save the world. Mo came outright and said "I will kill you rather than let you turn to the shadow". She's incredibly blunt with Perrin about it in TDR when she says that He's important too, but her priority is the dragon and she'd take perrin out if she had to to prevent risks to rand. She couldn't tell rand about her impending death (it'd have caused more problems and she knew it the same way she knew she'd die) but she basically said she didn't think she was long for this world and tried to teach him everything he'd need in her absence.

I think her honesty (and even honesty when she says why she doesn't tell him things) about being a manipulator empowered rand and also forged some degree of trust - I don't think he fully trusted her, but at least he knew where they stood.

[lillcheese]

PS> I'm very mad at BS for exposing the truth about Morgase in such a way :@ :@ :@ First of all, even Perrin doesn't know that Rand cares for Elayne and loves her! Second of all, Tam has no way to know that this matter is important to Rand. Third of all, just a couple of fake lines on Morgase's 'rebirth'!? This is an insult!

 

Perrin saw Rand & Elayne in the Stone of Tear.  He even mentions it to Tam when he first arrives in the TR, as I recall.  Perrin would also know that Rand wanted to give Elayne both the Sun and Lion Thrones. At least, I think he was still in Cairhein while some of this was common knowledge in the palace. So, maybe he doesn't know that they are madly in love.  But he knows that Rand has a more than passing interest in Elayne's welfare. 

 

Where do you get "rebirth" from?  I'm quite glad BS didn't try to cram the Morgase revelation drama into tGS.  It didn't need that kind of distraction.  But, it's a momentous enough event that it would be odd for Tam to not mention it. 

 

"Oh, btw, that queen that everyone thought you killed over in Caemlyn there.  Yeah, she's actually alive and well-ish.  Why didn't I mention that when I first saw you a month ago?  Well, I didn't think it was a big deal at all.  Hardly worth mentioning."

[thewalrus777]

At least we'll see the Morgase reveal in ToM.

[randfandom]

Perrin saw Rand & Elayne in the Stone of Tear.  He even mentions it to Tam when he first arrives in the TR, as I recall.

 

No, he tells Tam that Rand was dating a golden haired girl, but not who she was. Perrin tried to not give any information that would hint of Rand's importance, and saying he was in a relationship with the future queen certainly would.

 

Perrin would also know that Rand wanted to give Elayne both the Sun and Lion Thrones.

 

Yes, Perrin talks with Dobraine and Dobraine mentions that Rand wants to give the throne to Elayne and that she has more right to it than Colavere. This discussion happened around the time of Rand's kidnapping - I think right when they discovered it and were deciding what to do.

 

It's possible that Perrin tells Tam offscreen about Rand's and Elayne's attraction, but probably not, since when he last saw Rand, he was going around with Min - Perrin probably thinks that Rand is dating Min now - I doubt he is aware of Rand's relationship with all three women (for that matter, I don't think that Perrin even knows about Aviendha).

 

[Morsmordre]

I find the chapters for Perrin quite annoying... The whole book was about action. There was so much development with Rand and Egweene that the slowness in Perrin's chapters was some pain in the butt... At least to me... He shouldn't have revealed the thing about Morgase in this book :/ Or at least he could have said:

(speaking from Tam's POV)

-Btw, did you know that the Queen of Andor is a servant of Perrin?

-What? Morgase is alive? I must tell Elayne

 

blah blah blah and so on

:/

 

Cadsuane did a foolish thing to prepare Tam with a script. And Tam was even dumber to accept her script... Of course it would anger Rand! This move by Cadsuane was sloppy and rash. At least she should have accepted that she made a mistake :/

[Dakota]

Cadsuane did a foolish thing to prepare Tam with a script. And Tam was even dumber to accept her script... Of course it would anger Rand! This move by Cadsuane was sloppy and rash. At least she should have accepted that she made a mistake :/

 

Well, I don't think that Tam thought that it would push Rand that far.  I don't think Cadsuane would have given him as heads up "And don't mention my name to him, he'll probably kill you if you do."  Tam probably knew there was anymosity between Rand and Caddy, I just don't think he knew it was that bad, or he probably wouldn't have listened to her to begin with.

 

[Diederichos]

Why is Cadsuane accused of promoting the WT/Aes Sedai in general? She enforces -her own- authority and carefully cultivates -her own- influence, but she doesn't seem to give about the WT to the extent that she places that above Rand. I mean, she bullies, manipulates and berates other Aes Sedai as much as she does anyone else, and the only group she's shown any respect to and treated as equals were the Wise Ones.

 

In many ways she's a chameleon, some people she'll berate and/or browbeat, others she'll manipulate and others still she'll talk to straight. And at various points in the book she's behaved in similar manner with Rand, using whatever approach she felt the situation called for.

[randfandom]

I find the chapters for Perrin quite annoying... The whole book was about action. There was so much development with Rand and Egweene that the slowness in Perrin's chapters was some pain in the butt... At least to me...

 

With the exception of book 4 and some of 11, Perrin's chapters are always a pain in the butt... :-)

 

He shouldn't have revealed the thing about Morgase in this book

 

I have a feeling that this revelation will a role, since I suspect Rand may very well meet Gawyn near Dragonmount in the next book. Tam made no mention of the Shaido or Alliandre or much details of anything else - just Morgase - this suggests that this piece of information is important to the plot further on, moreso than the other events.

[Crael123]

Well, maybe we will all get lucky, and Gawyn will realize rand did not ill his mother and he will kill himself because he no longer has purpose

[thewalrus777]

Well, maybe we will all get lucky, and Gawyn will realize rand did not ill his mother and he will kill himself because he no longer has purpose

 

We wouldn't be so lucky. I imagine Morgase will be brought to Rand and she'll be with him when he meets with Egwene. Gawyn will see this and pull his head outta his arse. Gawyn will then realize that in order to be with Egwene he needs to be her warder, being it's the only way she'll have him. Needing him to be obediant to the demands of her job.

[Morsmordre]

Which means that Gawyn won't do what he's supposed to do (meaning, help Elayne on controlling Andor).

 

In TGS we could see very clearly that Min is not much of a threat. I actually feel a little sorry for her now, when she realized how powerless she is. I think that we're going to see more of her, not necessarily a physical power. Knowledge is often more useful than fists. I think that she's going to discover something of great importance to Rand.

[Crael123]

Which means that Gawyn won't do what he's supposed to do (meaning, help Elayne on controlling Andor).

 

In TGS we could see very clearly that Min is not much of a threat. I actually feel a little sorry for her now, when she realized how powerless she is. I think that we're going to see more of her, not necessarily a physical power. Knowledge is often more useful than fists. I think that she's going to discover something of great importance to Rand.

 

sadly, I agree with this. Min will probably find something in her books. damn >:(

[thewalrus777]

Which means that Gawyn won't do what he's supposed to do (meaning, help Elayne on controlling Andor).

 

In TGS we could see very clearly that Min is not much of a threat. I actually feel a little sorry for her now, when she realized how powerless she is. I think that we're going to see more of her, not necessarily a physical power. Knowledge is often more useful than fists. I think that she's going to discover something of great importance to Rand.

 

sadly, I agree with this. Min will probably find something in her books. damn >:(

Gawyn is supposed to be the First Prince, but whose to say Elayne won't just say Egwene needs you more than i do. I think Galad will end up in charge of the Whitecloaks. Things and times are changing for Randland.