Rands Twins?

[yoniy0]

I don't know why you'd think that. Nicola doesn't remember her foretellings, that's true. I'm not sure about Gitara, but since she's set Tigrain and Luc on their respective paths, she must've been able to recall some (I don't think there was anyone in Caemlin she could've confided in, unlike when she was Tamra's Keeper). Elaida's the 3rd example we have, and she does remember her foretellings. Do we know of anyone else with that specific Talent?

[Skeeve the Great]

Skeeve, we've seen an Elaida PoV, and she truly believes in her Foretellings. You may argue that she's deranged, but she's not attempting fraud.

I agree with this but thought not recalling the Fortellings was a rule of the Talent? Is this the case or is it more hit or miss as Barid Bel Medar suggested.

 

I also believe that Elaida's Foretelling is a hoax. There are plenty evidence for me to believe it. Three most notably are: 1) she remembers them, and no other Foreteller in the book does it; 2) Mesaana was very skeptical of her ability, precisely because of remembering thing and they are not cryptic enough, and it tells a lot since in Age of Legends there were much more Foretellers than in this Age; 3) Elaida's Foretelling are not cryptic enough; they are "down to earth" so to speak, her Foretelling is very specific to the current affairs of the world and no one had it like this (well, except specific words of Gitara about Dragon being reborn, but even so, she does not remember her Foretelling).

[Skeeve the Great]

I don't know why you'd think that. Nicola doesn't remember her foretellings, that's true. I'm not sure about Gitara, but since she's set Tigrain and Luc on their respective paths, she must've been able to recall some (I don't think there was anyone in Caemlin she could've confided in, unlike when she was Tamra's Keeper). Elaida's the 3rd example we have, and she does remember her foretellings. Do we know of anyone else with that specific Talent?

 

Gitara did not remembered her Fortelling. That's why in New Spring it was mentioned that there was always couple Accepted in her presence to record her Foretellings (and it was Moiraine and Suan who heard the Foretelling about Dragon being reborn).

We heard about Foreteller among Tuon's damane, who predicted she would marry Mat. We didn't heard the Foretelling ourselves only Tuon's mentioning of it. I would bet that the damane does not remember it as well.

[yoniy0]

Gitara did not remembered her Fortelling. That's why in New Spring it was mentioned that there was always couple Accepted in her presence to record her Foretellings (and it was Moiraine and Suan who heard the Foretelling about Dragon being reborn).

We heard about Foreteller among Tuon's damane, who predicted she would marry Mat. We didn't heard the Foretelling ourselves only Tuon's mentioning of it. I would bet that the damane does not remember it as well.

Oh, you'd bet so? I'm sold :)

Seriously, would you support your claims that the Accepted were present to record Gitara's foretellings (or come up with another proof that Gitara didn't remember hers)? I thought they were attending Tamra, and I can't see Tamra allowing Accepted near Gitara when she expects her to have a foretelling about the DR.

 

Edit: while you're at it, try and come up with proof that Mesaana thought Elaida's foretellings weren't true. I'll look at that scene myself in a couple of minutes.

[johthohar]

I also believe that Elaida's Foretelling is a hoax. There are plenty evidence for me to believe it. Three most notably are: 1) she remembers them, and no other Foreteller in the book does it; 2) Mesaana was very skeptical of her ability, precisely because of remembering thing and they are not cryptic enough, and it tells a lot since in Age of Legends there were much more Foretellers than in this Age; 3) Elaida's Foretelling are not cryptic enough; they are "down to earth" so to speak, her Foretelling is very specific to the current affairs of the world and no one had it like this (well, except specific words of Gitara about Dragon being reborn, but even so, she does not remember her Foretelling).

Gitara did not remembered her Fortelling. That's why in New Spring it was mentioned that there was always couple Accepted in her presence to record her Foretellings (and it was Moiraine and *Siuan (fixed) who heard the Foretelling about Dragon being reborn).

We heard about Foreteller among Tuon's damane, who predicted she would marry Mat. We didn't heard the Foretelling ourselves only Tuon's mentioning of it. I would bet that the damane does not remember it as well.

 

Thanks for all the references. Its good to know I'm not crazy and just making things up in my head. I thought I might just be prejudiced against Elaida since I've hated her since the moment we met her in TEOTW. Even more so after the White Tower coup. Alviarin is actually my favorite darkfriend in the books because of her treatment of Elaida.

 

Also, I corrected a spelling mistake in your post. Sorry, its an OCD thing.

[Skeeve the Great]

Seriously, would you support your claims that the Accepted were present to record Gitara's foretellings

 

I stand corrected. Accepted were present to do errands. And it was not mentioned if Gitara remembers them.

 

As for Mesaana, I want to clarify that Mesaana was sceptical. At least it sounded to me that way:

"Strange that she should be so clear and so erratic at the same time. It was always a rare Talent, and most who had it spoke so only poets could understand."

[Skeeve the Great]

Thanks for all the references. Its good to know I'm not crazy and just making things up in my head. I thought I might just be prejudiced against Elaida since I've hated her since the moment we met her in TEOTW. Even more so after the White Tower coup. Alviarin is actually my favorite darkfriend in the books because of her treatment of Elaida.

 

Also, I corrected a spelling mistake in your post. Sorry, its an OCD thing.

 

I started not believing in Elaida's Foretelling after one of the re-reads of tEotW, where Lord Bryne basically dismantle her Foretelling as obvious to everyone common sense.

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Balticon XXX April 1996 - Pam Korda reportin

Elaida and her Foretelling: Most Foretellers' Foretellings are very vague and poetic-sounding, making it difficult to tell what, actually, WAS foretold before it actually happens. Elaida, on the other hand, has very clear, definite Foretellings. She says stuff like "John will die"--not much vagueness about that. (Of course, Elaida often misinterprets it.)

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- For Gyrehead, Foretelling is not related to strength.  The weakest possible channeler could Foretell as strongly as Elaida or Nicola, or perhaps even more so, depending entirely on the strength of his or her Talent for Foretelling.

 

Both of these quotes from RJ say that Elaida's fortellings are real, i dont think there is any doubt of that. As to why she can remember her fortelling, i have no idea.

[yoniy0]

Yeah, I've just found it myself:

"So our Elaida has had a Foretelling," [...] "Strange that she should be so clear and so erratic at the same time. It was always a rare Talent, and most, who had it spoke so only poets could understand. Usually until it was too late to matter, at least. Everything always became clear then."

[...]"Interesting predictions. The rebels breakinglike a rotten melon?was that part of it?"

"I am not certain, Great Mistress," she said slowly had it been? but Mesaana only shrugged.

"Either it is or it is not, and either way can be used."

"She is dangerous, Great Mistress. Her Talent could reveal what should not be revealed."

Crystalline laughter answered her. "Such as? You? Your Black Ajah sisters? Or perhaps you think to safeguard me?

But I read it differently than you. She doesn't seem to question that the foretellings are true. On the contrary, she seems to consider ways to use them.

And lastly, I maintain that Gitara must've been able to recall at least some of her foretellings to be able to guide Tigrain and Luc the way she did. That isn't proof, I know, but it is indicative.

Regarding the damane in question, we have no information whatsoever as to whether she remembered her fortune-telling, as Tuon put it.

 

I started not believing in Elaida's Foretelling after one of the re-reads of tEotW, where Lord Bryne basically dismantle her Foretelling as obvious to everyone common sense.

Skeeve, let me repeat. The reason Morgase (or Bryne, but I think it was Morgase) took it the way she did was because Elaida didn't say the whole think out loud, she kept part of it for Rand and herself alone.

 

Edit: sorry, every time I tried to post someone has written something new, so finally I just went for it. Now:

As to why she can remember her fortelling, i have no idea.

The correct question to me is why doesn't Nicola remember them. We have no other example of someone who doesn't. I guess the Talent just manifests differently in different people.

[Skeeve the Great]

Balticon XXX April 1996 - Pam Korda reportin

Elaida and her Foretelling: Most Foretellers' Foretellings are very vague and poetic-sounding, making it difficult to tell what, actually, WAS foretold before it actually happens. Elaida, on the other hand, has very clear, definite Foretellings. She says stuff like "John will die"--not much vagueness about that. (Of course, Elaida often misinterprets it.)

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- For Gyrehead, Foretelling is not related to strength.  The weakest possible channeler could Foretell as strongly as Elaida or Nicola, or perhaps even more so, depending entirely on the strength of his or her Talent for Foretelling.

 

Both of these quotes from RJ say that Elaida's fortellings are real, i dont think there is any doubt of that. As to why she can remember her fortelling, i have no idea.

Thanks for the quotes. It puts huge hole in my theory, but remembering thing is still unanswered. I do hope that not all of her Foretellings are real and some of them just wishful thinking. :)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I also think that we should question why Nicola cannot remember, for as far as I can recall, she is the only one we actually know that doesnt remember her fortellings (I may be wrong, if there is evidence, point me to it)

 

As for Elaida making some of her fortellings up, it is possible, but the ones we see onscreen cannot be doubted "Amyrlin's Wrath" etc...

 

Im suprised this hasnt been asked (at least, i cannot find it anyway) someone should ask Brandon. It would be interesting to know

[johthohar]

Damn. I really wanted her to be a fraud.

[algspkr]

Thanks for the quotes. It puts huge hole in my theory, but remembering thing is still unanswered. I do hope that not all of her Foretellings are real and some of them just wishful thinking. :)

 

I can only think of three Foretellings of hers that we know, and they all seem perfectly valid; her interpretation of them on the other hand do seem to be wishful thinking.