WoW!! I-JUST-Had THIS Thought About Who Is - Lord Of Chaos- !! I Bet This Is It!

[ErikTheBald]

Good point.  I must have been out of my mind for a second there. ;)

[Beren]

Good point.  I must have been out of my mind for a second there. ;)

 

No, I am not saying that you are out of your mind. You could very well be right even though I don't think so. I am trying to point out to richnewton that the simplest seeming solution isn't always the right one.

[richnewton82]

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[ohaitharguiz]

Amayahoshi - No Offense Taken! I can work on scaling back my Thread Titles!

 

Richie Newton - youre a very funny guy, I have to grant that, but, if you would have read the whole post you wouuld have seenthe long list of evidence compiled and therefore not been as quick to dismiss, im betting. Evidence is one thing that, im afradi, can't be argued with.

 

 

Fish

 

Evidence can be argued with if it is wrong.

[Beren]

name 1 thing that isn't simple in this book. It all seems pretty straightforward to me.

Shaidar Haran

 

Cadsuane

 

Verin

 

Ishamael/Moridin

 

Balefire

 

Tel'aran'Rhiod

 

The Worlds of If

 

Daes Dae'mar

 

The Finns

 

Slayer

 

Interaction of the True Power and the One Power

 

White Tower Politics

 

Must I go on?

 

 

Oh ya, one more. Who killed Asmodean?  ;D :P (the mods will probably lynch me for that one)

[richnewton82]

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[ohaitharguiz]

 

Verin - Operates under unknown intentions and may or may not be dark

 

 

Verin does a bunch of stuff and we have no idea why, and we also don't know if she is evil or not. Elementary, you idiots.

[ohaitharguiz]

Name 1 thing that happened in the books that you didn't understand or took your by surprise. ONE Thing. There may be things that we simply don't know (like if a character is a darkfriend or not) but that doesn't make them complex. You tried to tell me that the simplest answer is not always the right one. Unfortunately it nearly always is (Occum's Razor) and it is always in this series. Name 1 thing that took you off guard.. you can't. Because the series makes sense intuitively and most events are either alluded to or prophecised heavily.

 

Please tell me everything that will happen in the next book, since nothing takes you off guard at all. This is gonna be awesome, I won't even have to read it.

[richnewton82]

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[Beren]

Cadsuane - What's not simple here? She's old and intimidating and wants to help Rand by getting him off the "hardness" thing.

Is that her only purpose? She is Aes Sedai...

Verin - Operates under unknown intentions and may or may not be dark

She states many times her intentions so if you say she operates under unknown intentions, then you just said that she is not simple at all. The second part can be answered by studying Verin's very carefully through the scenes she is in.

Ishamael/Moridin - died and was brought back by the DO

Want to tell me what he plans on doing? Is he working for the DO in the long run? Sure he is doing stuff for him in the short run, but he has been doing some very odd stuff for one who is dedicated entirely to the DO.

Balefire - true power weapon that burns a thread backwards in time

True Power weapon? It is a channeling weapon. Why does everyone still have the memories? Care to explain that? Not so simple after all. Or why does Callandor split balefire instead of being burned out of existence?

Tel'aran'Rhiod - dream world

Go read the series again and pay careful attention to when people talk about what it is and connections it has. It happens to be the only thing that the Creator and the DO have in common. We know all the worlds (what worlds?) touch it. Wolves souls reside here. Why is that? Want to try answering? It's not simple at all.

Daes Dae'mar - politics

You said what it is, but Daes Dae'mar is most certainly not simple. Multiple characters talk about how ridiculously complicated it is.

The Finns - race of other dimensional creatures

How do they know what people need to do? Saying what they are does not make them simple. Did you expect them to give Mat more than three answers? I bet not!

Slayer - 2 people that were somehow merged into 1

NO! WRONG! One did live and one did die. Yet, both are. Read your books. This is not simple at all. How can he jump right into T'a'R without going to sleep. How can he keep the body he changes into when he comes out of T'a'R?

Interaction of the True Power and the One Power - completely unknown aside from when balefire crossed in a single instance and obviously is causing some kind of merging

So something you have seen, but can't quite understand. Not simple at all.

White Tower Politics - Daes Dae'mar

More so even than that. See my Daes Dae'mar answer and multiply it by 100 or something like that.

Oh ya, one more. Who killed Asmodean? - Greandal

Considering the length of the discussion and that we still do not know for sure, I say this is way complicated.

 

 

I could name many things that took me offguard, but the mods would hamstring me for posting them here. How about you join us over in the spoilers thread and I will tell you all those wonderful things that surprised me.

 

Here are a few I can post.

1) Shaido going back to the threefold land.

2) Alanna bonding Rand. Seriously, how would you even think to expect that?

3) The Amayar committing mass suicide.

4) First time we saw the DO res someone. Expect that?

5) Tinkers are Aiel. Huh, bet you didn't see that coming.

6) To die and live again a part of what was. -- so many people had this wrong until RJ finally gave up and just confirmed what that was a prophecy of

7) Machin Shin waiting for the group at waygates.

[Rinkai]

Guy guys guys, calm down. Richnewton has got the right on this one. Technically this is a complex series. Complex meaning a series of many interlocking events. But this is organized complexity. And the reason it is simple and elegant is because they all make sense which is rich's point. And I tend to side with him because there isn't some mystical element here. Most events usually have some pretty heavy foreshadowing.

 

 

If you want to read a complex series read the "Illuminatus trilogy," then come and talk to me about complexity. WoT is childs play. At least it is told in chronological order. And the people know who they are.

[VinedC]

Most events usually have some pretty heavy foreshadowing.

foreshadowing being an understatement! The number of prophecies, viewings, etc in this series allows for very few significant surprises, which is what I think is in line with what richnewton was stating. I mean, there are things that were forecast in the first couple books that we are still waiting on. We dont know the specifics of how things will go down (i.e. timing of events, specific character involvement in said events), but we have a pretty good idea of the general direction.

[Beren]

I think I misinterpreted what richnewton was saying. At least I hope I did. What you (VinedC) are saying makes perfect sense and I would agree with that. I still hold to the fact that there ARE surprises in the WoT series whatever richnewton thinks about that. I gave him a nice little list and there are several more upcoming in TGS. Thanks VinedC for stepping in and helping clear things up. Sorry if I got a little testy there. The comment about the foreshadowing I think is what cleared up the misunderstanding. I agree that we know the general direction the book is going. I also think there are still plenty of surprises.

[richnewton82]

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[Mr Ares]

It can be argued that 6 is ''Taim's Book''

Go on then, argue it. I think it'll really be a stretch.

 

When the Bad Guy who is speaking (I still maintain that its the Dark One)

We know it is.

right after Taim has just knelt to the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells.

I think you need a re-read.

 

The next time we hear those dark words uttered again are by Mazrim Taim himself at the end of The Knife One.

The Knife One, eh? Can't say I've read that book. However, the next time the phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" is used after the end of LoC is in the Prologue to KoD. By Semi, I believe.

 

Finally, over the years alot of people have theorized that the LOC being referred to was either Rand or The Dragon Reborn or The Dark One.

Your claim to have extensive knowledge of the books is somewhat dubious given that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. And it appears that the Lord of Chaos order is an order to spread chaos. Certainly it is used at times that don't relate to Rand.

legitemat (can ANYBODY spell that word, lol???)

I can. Also, I can spell a lot (the trick is remembering it's two words).

 

So, your argument is that Taim is the Lord of Chaos, because he uses the phrase. Well, it comes from Shai'tan, was used by Demandred and Semi as well as Taim, and Graendal mentions the importance of increasing chaos. In other words, you don't have a theory.

 

Have you ever had a thought about something in this series just POP into your head out of nowhere for the very first time out of nowhere? Or even just pop into your head spontaneously? - Even years and years later?

 

I just did. And I have been there since DAY ONE!!! Ill never forget the honor of meeting Mister Rigney when EOTW was in Hardback. (I wonder, how many fans do YOU think were wonderinf if Taim was the LOC way back when EOTW was in Hardback lol???)

 

I now believe that The LOC that is being referred to by the bad guy at the end of book 6 to Demandred IS:

 

Mazrim Taim!!!

 

 

I Will Now Make My Case For Mazrim Taim Being The Lord Of Chaos.

 

 

Please hear my reasons - Thank you. Feedback welcome and appreciated! :):

 

It can be argued that 6 is ''Taim's Book'' kinda how 4 is ''Perrin's'' and how 3 really was the emergence of Mat...or how a case can be made that 7 is either ''Cadsuane's'' or ''Sammael's'' book - if you know what I mean.

 

 

When the Bad Guy who is speaking (I still maintain that its the Dark One) to Demandred at the end of Book 6 says those fateful words, it is VERY coincidentally right after Taim has just knelt to the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells.(btw you need to reread this part. the aes sadai kneel to rand)

 

The next time we hear those dark words uttered again are by Mazrim Taim himself at the end of The Knife One.

 

Coincidence? Not possible. Not even CLOSE to possible, if you know the intricacies of the text as I do - There are literally HUNDREDS of pages that consititute the first 5 books before we get to this point. And I know em.

 

Also, Please Consider: Many have postualted - as well as theorized - over the years that DEMANDRED was pulling the strings on Taim and it is to the very *same* DEMANDRED that the Bad Guy says that to at the end of the Book 6??? THAT is on Large-Sized Coincidence if you ask me!!! Now, I have ALWAYS been willing - And alwys WILL be willing - to give serious consideration to the possibility of coincidence, but I staunchly refuse to ever do it when it seems in my mind that coincidence is not a reasonable posibility. I won't give it two thoughts then. I honestly don't now one person here that could handle accepting THAT large of a coincidence without being completely overwhelmed.

 

Finally, over the years alot of people have theorized that the LOC being referred to was either Rand or The Dragon Reborn or The Dark One. Personally, I never bought into any of those 3 being legitemat (can ANYBODY spell that word, lol???) possibilities myself - mainly because no matter where you looked (and I looked EVERYWHERE) you could never find anyone with any evidence to support those three choices.

 

So...In Closing: That is the case I have wished to make that Mazrim Taim is and was the Lord of Chaos being referred to at the end of the book of the same name.

 

In the old days, in court, after trials, when an attorney (lawyers too) felt like he or she had just delivered an amazing closing argument, they would say ''You can lock THAT one up!''

 

Forgive a bit of self-indulgence, or even humoring myself, but I think its pretty fair to say that I just locked THAT one up! (Taim=LOC) ;-)

 

 

 

Fish

Everything I striked out is gibbrish Fisher. You don't understand what evidence is, do you?

I think you were overly generous.

 

I'm not complaining but its a far cry from GRRM's world where random undead guys start attacking and dragons and stuff and god knows what.

Name one thing that's complex about ASoIaF.

 

My example was GRRM's series. Have you read that one? It's like the author takes a hit off a crack pipe midway through because the series goes in a direction TOTALLY unforseen by the reader.

No it doesn't. The political storyline and the threat of the Others, and the Dragons were all established in the first book, and fairly early. The Others and Wights were introduced in the Prologue, for crying out loud.

 

Do you see a horde of ice undead guys pouring out of the North, ala GRRM?

No, I see a hoard of human/animal hybrid monsters pouring out of the North. So iciness=complexity?

 

They don't fit within the normal plot boundaries.

They do within the normal plot boundaries of epic fantasy novels. Now, if Omar hatched some Dragons in the Wire, and used them to harass the good drug dealers of Baltimore, I might think David Simon had lost it. If someone did it in a fantasy novel, I'm hardly going to be surprised, especially when it was so heavily foreshadowed.