The dark one being free

[LoveMachine]

If the DO was freed during the age of legends why didn't he remake the world then? Was his influence not strong enough?

[Guest Majsju]

He wasn't free in the AOL, he could only touch the world through the Bore.

[LoveMachine]

So how would he be able to remake the world if the bore is only being reopened. Won't his level of contact be the same as it was in AoL?

[Guest Majsju]

Because the DO wants to break free. He wasn't strong enough in the AOL to break free completely, but the situation appears to be different now.

 

I'm gonna go off on a specualtion here.

 

As I see it, the DO's strength is directly connected to the state of the world. The DO can be describes as the opposite to the Creator, and the opposite to creation is Chaos. In the AOL, the shadow started a war to spread enough chaos for the DO to be able to break free. Now, the world today is far more chaotic than the AOL was, with the Light being divided into several groups put in opposition to eachother, the social and political structure falling apart all over the place. Which brings more chaos, which strengthens the DO. Soon he'll be strong enough to break the Bore wide open, unless Rand can make it in time to fix it.[/speculation]

[Colmana]

i see where you are coming from

 

the more chaos caused in the world (he is the lord of chaos being refered to), he does so through the use of the forsaken

 

and as you said, with all the wars happening and conflict, there is chaos

 

i believe that as it is said, the world needs to unite for TG, so with peace there is a remedy to the chaos

[Jellybelly]

I agree pretty much with Majsju's speculation, except for one thing. Is the world today really much more chaotic than it was, say, in the last year of the War of the Shadow? The day before Lews Therin launched his attack on the Bore? With the Shadow controlling a greater portion of the world than the Light, continually pushing it back, my assertation is that that world, involved in a frantic war they were rapidly losing, must have been more chaotic than the world is now, in the weeks before the Last Battle.

 

I think that if the Bore is ripped open now, there will still be some time before the Dark One is able to undo his prison. But we shall all see, of course.

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

I agree pretty much with Majsju's speculation' date=' except for one thing. Is the world today really much more chaotic than it was, say, in the last year of the War of the Shadow? The day before Lews Therin launched his attack on the Bore? With the Shadow controlling a greater portion of the world than the Light, continually pushing it back, my assertation is that that world, involved in a frantic war they were rapidly losing, must have been more chaotic than the world is now, in the weeks before the Last Battle.

 

I think that if the Bore is ripped open now, there will still be some time before the Dark One is able to undo his prison. But we shall all see, of course.[/quote']

 

Although that could be true, in the AOL there was a balance. There were two sides, and only two sides: The shadow, and those against the shadow. Everyone was united under either side. But currently, there are the Seanchan who want to conquer everything, Rand's crew against the shadow (which probably includes the borderlands since they fight the shadow always), Masema and his fellow madmen, Whitecloaks, Two Aes Sedai factions, two Asha'aman factions, the hordes of refugees, and all the people that haven't been conquered by the seanchan or Rand.

 

Let the Lord of Chaos rule probably means to prevent all of those to become one. If you remember one of Rand's answers the snakes gave him, what has to happen is "The north and east must be one. The south and west must be one. The two must be one," which means the people united.

 

We can see the DO's people try to keep them separated with Mesaana and the tower split, Taim vs Logain, Suroth + Semirhage behind the Seanchan, and Graendal doing something in Arad Doman.

[Luckers]

I'm less certain... i don't think the Dark One will be any stronger then it was in the AOL when the seals collapse--that being said, consider the influence it had then... by itself with no cronies it brought about the Collapse (or whatever the 50 years preceeding the War of the Shadow was called). I think thats part of the goal of Tarmon Gaidon... ensuring the Shadow has the space and control to start widening the bore.

[Vecusum]

It seems it is not a matter of the Dark One being any stronger, but rather his minions being stronger, remember, this is a time when he has more influence then before, he has minions from the Age of Legends who know ways to use the power that no current Aes Sedai or Ashaman knows, are more powerfull in the use of the power then either from the aforementioned groups(except Moghedian, the weakest of the Forsaken) , he has effectively destroyed the weapons that were used to combat him before and yet retained his most powerfull tools, and throughout all of this the world is rife with war, fear, chaos, betrayal, and suffering, all of which were missing until his emergence at the end of the Age of Legends, the Age of Legends had unity and far better technology/weapons then the current age has. Thus even if Rand can acheive the nessecary unity the Dark One will already have larger armys ready, remember, he has had many Ages of influence and time to gather armys and to prepare for this war, the Dragon Reborn only has a handfull of years and lacks any level of experience in the nessecary areas(disregarding the involvement and knowledge of and from Lews Therin, who he second guesses as much as the Aes Sedai, and for good reason).

 

So really it is not a matter of the Dark One being stronger, but rather having a massive tactical advantage and thus being able to have the time to free himself from the prisin by widening the bore, which is why the Hundred Companions plan of sealing the bore went through and not the Sa'angreal one of putting a shield around it(described in The Strike at Shayol Ghul), basically he would have gotten out then if it weren't for Lews Therin's actions, widening the bore takes time, the same in both cases of then and now, so rather it falls to, can the Dark One's minions keep the bore from being resealed long enough to allow it to widen and free him, a matter of their strength, not his, and thus of the spread of his influence, which is considerably more in this time and age then it was in the Age of Legends.

[Luckers]

Well firstly, thats not entirely true about the knowledge of the Forsaken... yes, they know a bit more, but the majority of that advantage has been taken away by the interogations of Moghedian and Asmodean... as well as LTT's little insertions via Rand.

 

Secondly Moghedian is not the weakest of the Forsaken. My guess would be that that falls to Asmodean. Semirhage seems to be around Moghedian's strength, based on what we we've seen, and if Graendal and Cyndane are slightly stronger... it isn't by much. Aran'gar also seems to be around that strength, whilst Demandred and Ishamael are the only onese even approaching Rand's strength.

 

Thirdly, the Dark One only has a larger army in the physical sense--and then not by much. The combination of all the forces of Randland, the Aiel and the Seanchan ain't something to be laughed at or ignored. In Channelers the Light far outstrips the Shadow... In another thread i did the math and its something like 14,000 to 5,000.

 

Fourthly, even Lews Therin admitted that the Sa'Angreal plan was better, and was willing to follow the Hall of Servants decision to implement that. It was only when the access keys were lost without hope of recovery that Lews Therin acted, and then without the permission of the Hall.

 

And finally, on your point about experience--the Third Age has much greater experience with war then the Second. And much greater experience with the Shadow. This is exemplified in Mat who is literally the sum of all the experience the Third Age has to offer in warcraft. Frankly i think that the Third Age is much more geered for dealing with the forces of the Shadow then the second one. And as to your comments on weaponry and technology--well, Rand's side has greater technology then the Dark Ones, with access to canons, eight-point cranks for crossbows--not to mention a monopoly on the angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal left in the world.

 

In many ways the Dark is in a much worse position now then they were in the Age of Legends.

[Vecusum]

Well firstly, thats not entirely true about the knowledge of the Forsaken... yes, they know a bit more, but the majority of that advantage has been taken away by the interogations of Moghedian and Asmodean... as well as LTT's little insertions via Rand.

That is true if you ignore that Asmodean was limited in what he could use/teach and did not teach Rand all he knew anyway, or that Moghedian planned on escape, is known for cunning, and only taught them things they asked of her, such as culliendar and travelling, or enough to serve her purpose, the Aes Sedai, even Egewene, do not know many other weaves shown, one of the big ones is compulsion, which is not openly known among the Aes Sedai but is among the Forsaken, that is, of course, not the only example.

 

Secondly Moghedian is not the weakest of the Forsaken. My guess would be that that falls to Asmodean. Semirhage seems to be around Moghedian's strength, based on what we we've seen, and if Graendal and Cyndane are slightly stronger... it isn't by much. Aran'gar also seems to be around that strength, whilst Demandred and Ishamael are the only onese even approaching Rand's strength.

Actually Ishmeal and Lanfear were the strongest two, Lanfear being the second, out of all of the women Moghedian is the weakest outside of Tel'aran'rihad, but the strongest in it, and out of the forsaken she ranked right near Asmodean, who is not a Forsaken anymore so I ignored him after all he was a traitor thus making Moghedian the weakest if you ignore the reincarnated Lanfear, Ishmeal is said to have exceded Lews Therin, not matched him, Demandred matched Lews Therins accomplishments(which would require equal or greater strength with the power) but not fame, if not matching but was no where near as competent with his powers, and of all of them Moghedian was easily the most cunning, which is how she earned her position, the Forsakens ranks among themselves were detertmined by accomplishments, not power. But if you want practical examples then you have that Greandal easily overpowered and compelled both Lanfear(reincarnated) and Moghedian, Semirhage is apparently mathed by Meesana acording to LoC, however if you want to go by what they have shown strength wise then we know Moghedian is weaker then Nynave, that Semirhage and Greandal obviously are not with some of the things they have done in the past(manipulating, controlling, and torturing whole villages at once), Demandred and Ishmeal are feared for their strength, the only ones that are really not mentioned for deeds of skill/strength are Moghedian, Meesana, Osan'gar, and Aran'gar.

 

Thirdly, the Dark One only has a larger army in the physical sense--and then not by much. The combination of all the forces of Randland, the Aiel and the Seanchan ain't something to be laughed at or ignored. In Channelers the Light far outstrips the Shadow... In another thread i did the math and its something like 14,000 to 5,000.

Intresting math considering there has never been a definite number set for how many Darkfriends are in either of the two towers in any of the books, that is not including ones they have picked up over time from other means, if they did, specifically men, who, because of the taint, would be more likely to serve him or join his forces over the years, 3000 years is a long time to gather an army, and when you can make it of people who live 300+ years while recruiting nondiscriminately, well, lets just say I doubt the Black and White towers get 2/3 as it seems you say/beleive it is impractical considering the strong history of discrimination from the White Tower and just certain regions in general, just think, how many Asha'man, Aes Sedai, and Wise Ones could be Darkfriends as well, the true numbers may never be stated and will more then likely never be known for definate, most estimations could only be made on biast speculation that is based on content views added by readers, not the author.

 

Fourthly, even Lews Therin admitted that the Sa'Angreal plan was better, and was willing to follow the Hall of Servants decision to implement that. It was only when the access keys were lost without hope of recovery that Lews Therin acted, and then without the permission of the Hall.

Actually he did not agree to it beleiving it a better idea, he was forced into it by the refusal of any Aes Sedai woman strong enough to be of use refusing to go along with his plan because of the machinations of the Shadar Nor, Latra Posae Decume, the Female Aes Sedai following the Shadar Nor had a sort of schizim of the tower that resulted in most male Aes Sedai following the Dragon and most female the Shadar Nor, he had no choice but to follow the hall's decision, when the keys were lost he did what he thought he had too, which was to attempt his plan, which, as is seeable by the seals breaking, did not work as effectively as intended because of the lack of female Aes Sedai, Lews Therin never admitted the Sa'angreal plan was better rather he had had no choice but to go along with it.

 

And finally, on your point about experience--the Third Age has much greater experience with war then the Second. And much greater experience with the Shadow. This is exemplified in Mat who is literally the sum of all the experience the Third Age has to offer in warcraft. Frankly i think that the Third Age is much more geered for dealing with the forces of the Shadow then the second one. And as to your comments on weaponry and technology--well, Rand's side has greater technology then the Dark Ones, with access to canons, eight-point cranks for crossbows--not to mention a monopoly on the angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal left in the world.

 

In many ways the Dark is in a much worse position now then they were in the Age of Legends.

That is intresting but you forget that much of the knowledge they have now is not considered better then that of the Age of Legends, in which they had flying ships and shock lances along with the ability to use the power as a weapon for all of their wielders and far greater skill when it came to it, again I point out the skill gap and that Moghedian did not know a lot of skills other then those she found beneficial to her and even then she only told Egewen, Nynave, and Elayne a handfull of her secrets while Asmodean did not have the ability to wield enough of the power to show Rand the more usefull combat skills, which he is now in the act of learning from Lews Therin and even that is decidedly lacking, as far as war experience goes it is said they mastered all there was of war in the war of shadows, but remember, Cauthon has died many times, always at the hand of a better strategist, he may know strategies, but he defenitely does not know the best strategies the Third Age has to offer, he however does know enough to be considered a great strategist like many others currently around, what little good that will do him against the likes of Ishmeal who has seen every strategy for the last 3000 years, or did you forget that Ishmeal[Moridean] has been watching the world since the sealing. So yeah, you are right, most of the ter'angreal and Sa'angreal are sealed away, but most of the people that have them have no clue what they do, making them useless, however the Forsaken have shown that they can divine the purpose of ter'angreal and sa'angreal rather easily, the only person not of the Forsaken to ever demonstrate this has been Aviendha, so that leaves 1 woman who can divine ter'angreal, 1 dreamer, a small handful that is good enough with cuelliendar for it to matter, and 5 that we know know compulsion against 11 people that know all of these and are extremly good at them and have no limitation on who or when they can use them, where as all but 3 with compulsion have such limitations, none can make cuelliendar weapons negating its best use for the light but not the shadow, the only dreamer of note is nowhere near strong enough to bother the Forsaken in tel'aran'rihad, top this off with Shadar Haran who can, apparently, cut off the ability to wield the One Power at will and then top that off with the grey men and ghollums, yeah, those unkillable and unseeable guys make the lines about even, you know, because a guy who is invincible or invisible generally are of no use what so ever, and even worse only 1 person so far even has a way to kill a ghollum and he is not giving it up any time soon, so yeah...

[DaShain]

Actually Ishmeal and Lanfear were the strongest two' date=' Lanfear being the second, out of all of the women Moghedian is the weakest outside of Tel'aran'rihad, but the strongest in it, and out of the forsaken she ranked right near Asmodean, who is not a Forsaken anymore so I ignored him after all he was a traitor thus making Moghedian the weakest if you ignore the reincarnated Lanfear, Ishmeal is said to have exceded Lews Therin, not matched him, Demandred matched Lews Therins accomplishments(which would require equal or greater strength with the power) but not fame, if not matching but was no where near as competent with his powers, and of all of them Moghedian was easily the most cunning, which is how she earned her position, the Forsakens ranks among themselves were detertmined by accomplishments, not power. But if you want practical examples then you have that Greandal easily overpowered and compelled both Lanfear(reincarnated) and Moghedian, Semirhage is apparently mathed by Meesana acording to LoC, however if you want to go by what they have shown strength wise then we know Moghedian is weaker then Nynave, that Semirhage and Greandal obviously are not with some of the things they have done in the past(manipulating, controlling, and torturing whole villages at once), Demandred and Ishmeal are feared for their strength, the only ones that are really not mentioned for deeds of skill/strength are Moghedian, Meesana, Osan'gar, and Aran'gar.[/i']

 

Ishamael is, quite clearly, stated to have matched Lews Therin's power, in the companion book. I personally believe that if there was a fraction of difference between them, it went to Lews Therin, simply because he was the Creator's chosen one; but that's just my opinion. Lanfear was the strongest female, and it was rumored that she was the second strongest of the Forsaken after Ishamael, although to my knowledge never really tested. Demandred is also quite clearly stated to have been just a bit less powerful than Lews Therin, also in the companion book. That's why he's so envious, because he was just a bit less famous, a bit less intelligent, a bit less powerful. Heck, Demandred isn't even the second most powerful male Forsaken, Aginor is, and he is also stated to be behind both Ishamael and Lews Therin.

 

As for Graendal, Mesaana and Semirhage ... they must be pretty damned powerful. I don't remember the passage from LoC that said that Mesaana and Semirhage were equal in power, but it doesn't surprise me. The important thing is that we really can't know what their power levels are, without either having it stated explicitly or seeing them go up against someone whose strength we know (like Nynaeve). Moggy has been stated to be the weakest of them, and considering how wide the gap is between Lanfear and Moggy (Moghedien is less powerful than Nynaeve, while Lanfear is around Alivia's level before her stay in Finnland, and Alivia is so powerful that Nynaeve is frightened of her even though she's a good guy), it stands to reason that at least two of those three will be a fair amount more powerful than Nynaeve, if not all of them.

 

as far as war experience goes it is said they mastered all there was of war in the war of shadows' date=' but remember, Cauthon has died many times, always at the hand of a better strategist, he may know strategies, but he defenitely does not know the best strategies the Third Age has to offer, he however does know enough to be considered a great strategist like many others currently around, what little good that will do him against the likes of Ishmeal who has seen every strategy for the last 3000 years, or did you forget that Ishmeal[Moridean'] has been watching the world since the sealing

 

A lot of things are said, and much of it isn't true. And Mat has lived and won in his memories just as many times as he has died in them. He has thousands, if not millions, of them in his head, usually more than one from each person; obviously not all of the battle ones end with his death. And seeing what DOESN'T work and how it goes wrong is, for an intelligent person, quite easy to turn into something that'll go right. As for Ishamael, Ishy has A) gone insane and B) wasn't the commanding general in anything except the Trolloc Wars, and even then was most likely not responsible for much of the strategy. The bigger problems would likely be Demandred and Sammael (if he's still around, which is unlikely), as they were prolific generals. But even they would be at a disadvantage, because this kind of war is nearly completely different. Technology and the means to mass-produce it and distribute it across an army is essentially gone, as they know it; their knowledge from the Age of Legends used in this Age would be like sending Patton back to lead Agamemnon's assault on Troy. Would he be competent? Yes. But he is not experienced in the warfare of the time, and so would not be as good as a competent general who is totally familiar with all current weapons of war. So it would likely be with anyone but Ishy, and Ishy has gone bats*** loco.

[algspkr]

First on the Dark One breaking free. Before the bore he was imprisoned. Lanfear and a male Aes Sedie from the AoL bored a hole into his prison. That was a small hole that basically allowed him to stick a finger out to touch the world and to enlarge the hole. The War of the Shadow was about the forces of the Shadow buying time for the Dark One to break free.

 

I get the impression that the hole was nearly big enough for the Dark One to escape when LTT sealed it, so when the seals are broken Rand will not have much time to fix the hole.

 

As to the forces arrayed for TG, in non-channellers I believe that the Shadow will have a huge margin (though feeding it may make for some questions of realism), possibly out numbering the light by as much as 50 to 1.

 

As for channellers the light will have the edge by a similar margin. The kin all serve the light, and we have not seen a black Wise One or Wind Finder hinted at. Suroth said that very few suldam served the shadow. Leaving Asha'man, AS, Sharans, and people from the land of madmen to make up the bulk of the shadows forces. We may see between 100-200 AS, I believe that it will be less than 150. We may see as many as 300 Asha'men, but again I think it will be less. Shara has played almost no role, and the Land of Mad Men has only been mentioned in the BWB so I believe their contrabutions to either side will be minamel. If the Dark One was stong enough and Ishmael had the forsite to encourage it the shadow may have a reserve of very old channellers built up over the past 2-3000 years, but there is no evidence of this. There may also be a collection of minature Shadar Horans somewhere in the Blight, again we have no evidence of this.

 

As for skill of the channellers only Rand on the side of the light comes close to matching the forsaken, but the Rebel AS are catching up.

 

Strength should not be an issue, as the light has numbers to surpass the individual strenghts of the forsaken.

 

Generaling falls to the light. The great generals of the West Lands, the Seanchan Generals, and the Aiel Clan Chiefs should be more than a match for the generals available to the shadow, the only one of note we know of being Demandred, who is used facing a completely new type of war, which may cause him to make the mistakes of the French and English in the beginning of World War II. The light also has Mat, who is probably the best living general.

 

The Shadow's military does have a signifigant advantage with scouts. They have Drakhar and Ravens. The light has Raken, which are not too plentiful, channellers Traveling about as we saw in APoD, and men on horse back.

 

Technology wise the Light is in the lead. Mat is developing a varity of fire arms, and has the best crossbows. The AS and Rand have most of the known angreal and ter'angreal, and they have all known sa'angreal. The big ticket item I believe we will see the Shadow using is adam, as each one will signifigantly increase the strength of each of their female channellers, and with enough in use should make a dent in the forces of the light, I do not see Moridin having any problems getting his hands on enough to outfit every female of the shadow with one.

[Luckers]

That is true if you ignore that Asmodean was limited in what he could use/teach and did not teach Rand all he knew anyway, or that Moghedian planned on escape, is known for cunning, and only taught them things they asked of her, such as culliendar and travelling, or enough to serve her purpose, the Aes Sedai, even Egewene, do not know many other weaves shown, one of the big ones is compulsion, which is not openly known among the Aes Sedai but is among the Forsaken, that is, of course, not the only example.

 

Well, first of all, Mogehedian taught the girls neither Travelling nor how to make cuendillar... both were the honest discoveries of Egwene alone. Secondly Egwene and the others DID learn compulsion, they just chose not to pass it on. At the same time they also learnt many other 'nasty weaves' specifically to try and figure out how to counter them that they did not pass on. The gaps in their knowledge are much less then you seem to think. As for Rand, he seems to be holding his own against the forsaken in the use of Weavings.

 

Actually Ishmeal and Lanfear were the strongest two, Lanfear being the second, out of all of the women Moghedian is the weakest outside of Tel'aran'rihad, but the strongest in it, and out of the forsaken she ranked right near Asmodean, who is not a Forsaken anymore so I ignored him after all he was a traitor thus making Moghedian the weakest if you ignore the reincarnated Lanfear

 

Nope, sorry. Moghedian is the strongest in tel'aran'rhiod, but nowhere was it said she was the weakest out of it, just that she was weaker then lanfear. Try again. Secondly Lanfear is not as strong as she once was, but again she isn't now the weakest as you seem to be thinking. Graendal specifically thinks that Cyndane is slightly stronger then she is, and Graendal is stronger then both Semirhage and Moghedian, who seem roughly even in strength. As for Moghedian, aside from Asmodean, it's implied, also, that Rahvin was weaker then she.

 

Ishmeal is said to have exceded Lews Therin, not matched him

 

Um, no. They were even in strength, with Demandred, Lanfear and Aginor slightly beneath them.

 

Demandred matched Lews Therins accomplishments(which would require equal or greater strength with the power)

 

Again, no. Demandred was specifically said to be slightly less strong then Lews Therin. I also dont get your logic about Demandred political accomplishments requiring equal or greater strength in an age when is was actions that counted... but since it WAS specifically said that Demandred is weaker my not getting that logic makes some sense, i guess.

 

however if you want to go by what they have shown strength wise then we know Moghedian is weaker then Nynave, that Semirhage and Greandal obviously are not with some of the things they have done in the past(manipulating, controlling, and torturing whole villages at once),

 

Firstly... Nynaeve and Moghedian are exactly equal in strength. Secondly your logic is again confusing... you say that like its significant, or that Moggy or Ny couldn't do that if they chose too. Moreover those things were mostly cunning and had nothing to do with the power... the compulsion and murder wreaked by Semirhage and Graendal could as easily been done by any of them... as proved by Verin who is much weaker but exerts control over all the Tower attack crew.

 

the only ones that are really not mentioned for deeds of skill/strength are Moghedian, Meesana, Osan'gar, and Aran'gar.

 

Osan'gar was described as being near to Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength. Aran'gar's actions and past indicate to me that he has not great strength... maybe equal to Semirhage and Moghedian, or possibly at the outsde Graendal. Mesana, no idea... but again i doubt she had great power.

 

Intresting math considering there has never been a definite number set for how many Darkfriends are in either of the two towers in any of the books, that is not including ones they have picked up over time from other means, if they did, specifically men, who, because of the taint, would be more likely to serve him or join his forces over the years, 3000 years is a long time to gather an army, and when you can make it of people who live 300+ years while recruiting nondiscriminately, well, lets just say I doubt the Black and White towers get 2/3 as it seems you say/beleive it is impractical considering the strong history of discrimination from the White Tower and just certain regions in general, just think, how many Asha'man, Aes Sedai, and Wise Ones could be Darkfriends as well, the true numbers may never be stated and will more then likely never be known for definate, most estimations could only be made on biast speculation that is based on content views added by readers, not the author.

 

Ya-huh. Go look at the series.

 

There are 1000 Aes Sedai. At the outside 300 are black. There are a thousand novices whose positions do not matter since if they are used, they will be used in circles to supply power. There are almost a 1000 Asha'man, only 100 of which are darkfriends. There are 5500 Wise Ones. Lets be kind and say a third are darkfriends. 1875. There are, based on number of ships, presense of apprentices and losses to the Seanchan, maybe 3000 windfinders. Again lets be kind and give a third to the dark. 1000. Based on population distribution and the overpopulation of Seanchan, but bearing in mind that only Sparkers are taught to channel, but again keeping in mind that the damane live up to 700 years, and that massive quantities of channelers have been leashed since their arrival in Randland (500 Wise Ones, bunches of Windfinders (alot of which escaped, i know) plus hundreds of normal folk) my guess would place the Seanchan numbers at 4000. Given that we know that there are literally almost no darkfriends amongst the sul'dam we arn't really gonna get any darkfriends. There were 1800 of the kin, but given the likely losses to the Seanchan id place that around 1400 - again, no darkfriends.

 

Now i've been extremely kind to the dark... if there really are that many darkfriends amongst the Wise Ones and Windfinders ill be surprised. Even so, the numbers work out to be 13,625 for the Light, and 3275 for the Dark.

 

Those numbers are not what i believe the groups have, they are what the books supply evidence that they have. However, if you want to deal in conjecture, lets give the Dark the Aiel men who sparked. Given that the Aiel have a relatively small population, and based on the fact that only one in four sparkers survive to make the trip north to be bound to the dark, id give them maybe 300 channelers, at the outside. Again being kind. And lets say that the Shadow has had people out gathering channelers--they likely wouldn't have been doing it all the time throughout the three thousand years. It'd be impractical and risk tilting there hand. At best they would of started 20 years ago when Ishy first learnt Rand was about (and indeed, i believe thats what did happen, and that that Taim was one of those people) That'd still only give a limited number (we know Taim couldn't travel, nor be open about recruiting. The other recruiters would likely have been in the same situation) So lets be kind anyway and give a 1000 more channelers to the shadow. Thats still 13,625 to 4575.

 

Actually he did not agree to it beleiving it a better idea, he was forced into it by the refusal of any Aes Sedai woman strong enough to be of use refusing to go along with his plan because of the machinations of the Shadar Nor, Latra Posae Decume, the Female Aes Sedai following the Shadar Nor had a sort of schizim of the tower that resulted in most male Aes Sedai following the Dragon and most female the Shadar Norhe had no choice but to follow the hall's decision, when the keys were lost he did what he thought he had too, which was to attempt his plan, which, as is seeable by the seals breaking, did not work as effectively as intended because of the lack of female Aes Sedai, Lews Therin never admitted the Sa'angreal plan was better rather he had had no choice but to go along with it.

 

Would you please read the books. The Fateful Concord was not instituted until after the access keys were lost. Latra Posae insisted on maintaining the plan, and Lews Therin went with that for two attempts to recover the access keys. After that he grew insistant about changing plans becuase the first had failed, and Latra Posae tried to stop him by having the female Aes Sedai powerful enough to take part to sign the Fateful Concord. It was then and only then that he acted against the Halls wishes.

 

That is intresting but you forget that much of the knowledge they have now is not considered better then that of the Age of Legends, in which they had flying ships and shock lances along with the ability to use the power as a weapon for all of their wielders and far greater skill when it came to it, again I point out the skill gap and that Moghedian did not know a lot of skills other then those she found beneficial to her and even then she only told Egewen, Nynave, and Elayne a handfull of her secrets

 

Firstly... do you ever use full stops? And as for the flying ships and shocklances, except for the occaisional remenant... which, i remind you, will be in the hands of either Rand or the Aes Sedai, they're long gone. Technologically the Dark is far behind the light. You can't change that with your "But, in the age of legends...!!!".

 

Secondly... Egwene, Ny and Elayne learnt loads of her nastier weaves.

 

Thirdly, Only the Aes Sedai have restrictions on the use of the One Power as weapon. The damane and the Windfinders do it all that time. And that means they have much greater experience with it.

 

as far as war experience goes it is said they mastered all there was of war in the war of shadows, but remember, Cauthon has died many times, always at the hand of a better strategist, he may know strategies, but he defenitely does not know the best strategies the Third Age has to offer

 

It was said... where. They had ten years of war, with very specific weapons and battlefields. The Third Agers have Three Thousand years of warfare at their backs. I'm sorry.

 

Cauthon has died many times, always at the hand of a better strategist, he may know strategies, but he defenitely does not know the best strategies the Third Age has to offer

 

Well first of all he didn't always die at the hands of better strategists... i dont know what books you've been reading. Secondly the experience of the individuals who experienced those memories is unimportant, the experience of mat is. He has witnessed pretty much every great battle in the last three thousand years, and learned from them all.

 

the likes of Ishmeal who has seen every strategy for the last 3000 years, or did you forget that Ishmeal[Moridean] has been watching the world since the sealing.

 

Ishamael was never accounted a great general. His actions have always been in the subtleties... manipulating individuals and setting up secret organisations. If you really think he's a match for Mat you're mistaken.

 

So yeah, you are right, most of the ter'angreal and Sa'angreal are sealed away, but most of the people that have them have no clue what they do, making them useless

 

Umm... im fairly certain the Aes Sedai, Rand, and the Wise Ones know how to use the angreal and sa'angreal in their posession. And as for the ter'angreal... well there is Aviendha, but mostly i suspect they wont play a large part.

 

however the Forsaken have shown that they can divine the purpose of ter'angreal and sa'angreal rather easily

 

Umm... firstly a sa'angreal is a sa'angreal. Any idiot knows how to use them. Rand had no training whatsoever and can use them. As for the other--when did they do that? The only one who has shown an ability to divine the use of unknown ter'angreal is Aviendha. None of the Forsaken (except for maybe Mesana) has any experience with them at all, much less any talent.

 

11 people that know all of these and are extremly good at them and have no limitation on who or when they can use them,

 

Oh please. The Forsaken have no talent with cuendillar. No talent with ter'angreal or weather working. And moreover, no access to anything anyway.

 

none can make cuelliendar weapons negating its best use for the light but not the shadow

 

Cuendillar weapons were never made in any situation. Secondly the Forsaken can't make cuendillar. Thirdly Egwene could make weapons if she so chose.

 

the only dreamer of note is nowhere near strong enough to bother the Forsaken in tel'aran'rihad

 

I like how you make up random facts. Firslt Egwene is stronger then Moggy in tel'aran'rhiod. The only other figure of even worry is Cyndane. The rest are all much weaker--some, like demandred, can't even get there except in the skin. The Wise Ones state that the Forsaken in the dreamworld avoid them, and why would they unless the Aiel were stronger in the dream.

 

Shadar Haran who can, apparently, cut off the ability to wield the One Power at will and then top that off with the grey men and ghollums, yeah, those unkillable and unseeable guys make the lines about even, you know, because a guy who is invincible or invisible generally are of no use what so ever, and even worse only 1 person so far even has a way to kill a ghollum and he is not giving it up any time soon, so yeah...

 

Shadar Haren has only ever cut off the Forsaken. And, oh yeah, he's one guy. The grey men are not particularily valuable in battle, there is only one gollum, and with some intelligence they could be killed or confined... you just have to be careful. Hit them with lightning, use a deathgate, throw things at them, catch them and seal them in a trap large enough that the flows never go near them.

 

Powerful weapons, ill give you that, but there arn't enough of them to make them a real issue. On a one on one it'll be a pain, but they wont be changing the tide of the fight any time soon.

[DaShain]

I agree with most of what you just said, except this one little part:

 

Nynaeve and Moghedian are exactly equal in strength.

 

Which simply can't be true. Nynaeve and Moghedion were evenly matched ... the first time they fought. Nynaeve hadn't even reached her full potential yet. So by this point, Nynaeve is definitely at least a little stronger, if not a lot.

 

Sorry to nitpick, but that's how I remember it, at least.

[Luckers]

That depends on wether or not Nynaeve was forced, and to what extent. Since that confrontation we have had no indication that Nynaeves strength has increased--and indeed given that she has been channeling for several years, and what she went through recently it may be that she had reached her full potential by the time she fought moghedian.

[DaShain]

I seem to remember comments being made, either verbally or in Nynaeve's internal monologue, specifically saying that she hadn't reached her potential yet around that point. However, I have no idea what the actual quote was, nor do I have the books with me, so I may just be making that up :?

[Musenge]

The dark ones strength has no relation to events on this world. He is what he is. It doesn't matter how powerful his armies are.

 

In the war of the shadow the Forsaken were openly ruling. Mass suicide, mass starvation, constant war with ridicolous technology, rampant balefire, entire cities being wiped out and the world falling under the shadow.

 

The situation now doesn't even begin to compare!

 

What I think is happening with the prison is that when Lanfear first drilled that hole the DO touched the world. Lews Therrin put a patch over the hole but the DO has been straining underneath that patch and the hole itself has been growing for the past 3000 years.

 

That's why the cuendelar seals are failing, the hole they were designed to help cover is much bigger now. If the DO finally breaks those seals he will be able to actually be free.

 

Which is why Rand can not merely patch the hole like Lews Therrin did, he has to remake the prison for the DO completely.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You took the words right out of my mouth, Musenge. At Tar'mon Gaidon two beings will matter, ultimately: Rand al'Thor, and the Dark One. Everything else is just set up for that confrontation. If it was about armies and numbers of channelers, Rand would be unnecessary.