Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[Bob T Dwarf]

The actions get erased. Go re read the bit in TFoH when Moiraine explains it after the Darkhound attack. So yes, its either a misstep by Team Jordan, the TP balefire works differently or Rand didn't balefire her that far back.

 

That's why I think it's an error, Kath.

 

One instant he's choking her and the next he balefires Semi out of existence - using as much TP as he could draw.  The bruises hafta be edited out.

 

Maybe TP balefire doesn't damage the Age Lace like OP balefire does, but that makes no sense since TP Traveling rips a hole in the Pattern.

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry but I disagree. The pattern continues on. That's why memories of events undone remain even if the event didn't happen because a thread burned back. The person is removed, their direct actions are undone, but that is the extent of it. The pattern is not remade. the thread is removed and the pattern is exactly the same except for things immediately impacted by that thread.

 

the bruises won't be edited out just like the fish bites weren't in FoH.

 

 

USAToday Chat - 5 January 2004

 

Laurel, Mississippi: In The Fires of Heaven, after Rand has his battle at the end, why is it that balefire works for his friends and not on his bites that have to be healed?

Robert Jordan: Because his injuries occurred in Tel'aran'rhiod. And what occurs there is different than what occurs in the waking world. Different rules apply.

 

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

 

We know that objects do not burn backwards like people do. Balefire doesn't effect all things the same. It effects the thread it targets only. When Rhavin is killed by Balefire, Mat and Asmo return to life. Because he killed them directly.

 

 

Not true.  Mat's medallion would have protected him from any direct OP attack.  He died because lightning is an indirect effect of a particular weave.  The medallion does not work on indirect effects as demonstrated multiple times in the book.  Most recently when the AS traveling with Mat and Tuon are able to use OP to pelt Mat with pebbles.

 

Since Rand balefiring Rahvin restored Mat, indirect effects get edited out.

[SinisterDeath]

I think your all forgeting, that rand may have only balefired Semi with a 'tiny' bit of balefire, Bringing events back only seconds instead of hours.

[richnewton82]

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[JenniferL]

The actions get erased. Go re read the bit in TFoH when Moiraine explains it after the Darkhound attack. So yes, its either a misstep by Team Jordan, the TP balefire works differently or Rand didn't balefire her that far back.

 

That's why I think it's an error, Kath.

 

One instant he's choking her and the next he balefires Semi out of existence - using as much TP as he could draw.  The bruises hafta be edited out.

 

Maybe TP balefire doesn't damage the Age Lace like OP balefire does, but that makes no sense since TP Traveling rips a hole in the Pattern.

 

Yeah, and it annoys me that we missed that. Grr.

[Bob T Dwarf]

sigh..

 

there was no other THREAD in between Rahvin, the lightning, and Mat. DIRECT.

 

Semmi -> Rand -> Min. INDIRECT.

 

Removing Semmi can't change what Rand did. The Balefire didn't touch Rand. Rand still choked Min.

 

 

Rahvin -> weave creating opposite potential in an area -> lightning INDIRECTLY results between those potentials -> Mat dies.

Rand -> direct balefire of Rahvin ->  all of Rahvins acts since Rand arrives are erased -> the direct and indirect effects of Rahvins acts are edited as necessary to create a state where they never happened.

 

Same thing should happen with Rand and Semi.  Anything Semi caused to happen subsequent to the point in time where the balefire kills her are edited to make the outcome be that they never happened in the first place.  Rand and Min retain their memories, but nothing else results.

 

That's how balefire works.

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

You aren't understanding what I'm saying. The pattern is woven. It is woven of THREADS. This has been stated again and again and again. A thread being in between a person and another person in a chain of events is what makes something indirect. Rand balefiring Semmirhage cannot undo his own actions. That is an absurd idea. His thread will not change as a result of his own balefire. That leads down a path of complete nonsense paradoxes. There is no thread between Rhavin and his actions killing Mat. That is why those things were undone. If Rhavin had told another channeler to use lightning to kill Matt and Rand Balefired Rhavin, Mat would still be dead. Because while Rhavin never told the person to use lightning, the person still would have. Mat would have still died.

 

Could I possibly be more clear?

 

They weren't his actions.  He had no volition in their occurrence.  They were Semi's actions via the Domination Band.  Being a Domination Band, they can force the wearer to do things he does not want or intend to do.

 

Remove Semi before she emplaced the Domination Band, and you also remove everything she did via Rand with the Domination Band.

 

No choke, no bruising.

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

Like I've been saying, and Kathana has admitted, the scene with Semi contains a major error.

 

The door opened.  She slipped out of the room without letting the hinges creak.  Outside, three corpses lay on the ground(sic), slumped free of their chairs.  The women who had been maintaining the shield.  There was someone else there, kneeling on the floor before the three of them.  One of the Aes Sedai.  A woman in green, with brown hair, pulled back into a tail, her head lowered.

    "I live to serve, Great Mistress," the woman whispered.  "I am instructed to tell you that there is Compulsion in my mind you are to remove."

 

Semirhage is one of the greatest physicians from the AoL.  She knows a corpse when she sees one.  The Aes Sedai is Elza.  After Elza is balefired, two of those "corpses" return to life.  

 

Are we expected to believe that Rand used more balefire on Elza than he did on Semirhage?

 

Didn't think so.  

 

When Rand walks into that room, he should remember the whole incident, but the "serving woman" shouldn't even be there.  And she should never show up.  Nor should Elza.  Both Elza and Semirhage should have ceased to exist before that point in time.  Semirhage should have died in her cell.  Elza just after drugging Semi's shield holders.

 

< Since this is the inside of a home, the corpses should be laying on the floor, not the ground >

[richnewton82]

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[JenniferL]

That's why I said it's possible that TP balefire works differently.

[richnewton82]

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[Nightstrike]

I don't think it's a mistake in any way. I also don't think that there's any difference between TP & OP Balefire - at least not in this case.

 

It was Rand who had his fingers around Min's throat. His actions were not erased.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Do you think Asmo, Avi and Mat were still laying on the ground, badly singed, in their death positions after they were restored?

 

There had been more than one bolt in that first volley, but not all had been aimed at him.  Mat's smoking boots lay a dozen paces from where Mat himself sprawled on his back. Tendrils of smoke rose from the black haft of his spear, too, from his coat, even from the silver foxhead, hanging out of his shirt, that had not saved him from a man channeling.  Asmodean was a twisted shape of char, recognizable only from the blackened harpcase still strapped to his back.  And Aviendha... Unmarked, she could have laid down to rest - if she could have rested staring unblinking at the sun.

 

Mat didn't need new boots.  His were still fine and still on his feet. His medallion didn't burn him or scorch his shirt. The Ashan'derei wasn't damaged.  Asmo's harpcase was fine.

 

After Rand balefired Rahvin, they were restored to the standing positions they'd been in before the lighting started to fall.  All clothing and equipment as it was when they exited the skimming platform.

[Whitering]

Yes, but this is a problem with things that effect time, even movies and media that make it their focus to try and reason these things out often fail on an epic scale.

 

After the balefire, Semi never placed the domination band on Rand. It is the exact same situation as with Graendal. However, Rand's actions are not affected. For example the fool (can't remember his name) still trotted back out to Rand and probably remembers saying everything he said to Rand (though to be fair, he was an idiot and may have said the same things anyway). Only Graendal's weaving is undone.

 

In Rand's situation he is likened to the fool, he has still trotted back out to meet everyone and still said all the glowing things about Graendal; ie. choking and torturing Min.

 

Rhavin's weave of lightning was undone. What would have been interesting is if after they were hit by it, a trolloc lopped their heads off. However, we can presume that never happened.

 

It's no different than if Graendal had torn the fool's shirt. It would not have been torn post balefire, it's really no different.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't think it's a mistake in any way. I also don't think that there's any difference between TP & OP Balefire - at least not in this case.

 

It was Rand who had his fingers around Min's throat. His actions were not erased.

 

No, Rand did not do it.  He was nothing more than the pair of pliers that Semi was using to kill Min herself.

[Nightstrike]

Do you think Asmo, Avi and Mat were still laying on the ground, badly singed, in their death positions after they were restored?

No, I think they stood in the position that they stood when Rahvin's lightning hit them. Rahvin's channeling and physical actions were erased. Just like Semirhage's channeling and physical actions were erased when Rand Balefired her. Rand's channeling and physical actions weren't erased.

 

No, Rand did not do it.  He was nothing more than the pair of pliers that Semi was using to kill Min herself.

He actually did it physically. Semirhage hadn't her hands on Min's throat. It was Rand's physical hands on Min's throat.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, but this is a problem with things that effect time, even movies and media that make it their focus to try and reason these things out often fail on an epic scale.

 

After the balefire, Semi never placed the domination band on Rand. It is the exact same situation as with Graendal. However, Rand's actions are not affected. For example the fool (can't remember his name) still trotted back out to Rand and probably remembers saying everything he said to Rand (though to be fair, he was an idiot and may have said the same things anyway). Only Graendal's weaving is undone.

 

In Rand's situation he is likened to the fool, he has still trotted back out to meet everyone and still said all the glowing things about Graendal; ie. choking and torturing Min.

 

Rhavin's weave of lightning was undone. What would have been interesting is if after they were hit by it, a trolloc lopped their heads off. However, we can presume that never happened.

 

It's no different than if Graendal had torn the fool's shirt. It would not have been torn post balefire, it's really no different.

 

Those were never "Rand's actions."  They were Semirhages actions imposed on Rand.  IF Semi had put the Domination Band on Rand AFTER he had started choking Min for some inexplicable reason, THEN the bruising should remain.

 

Since Rand never choked Min and never would, since it was Semi's will that caused the choking to happen, not Rand's, once Semi goes bye-bye via balefire the choking never happens.

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

Do you think Asmo, Avi and Mat were still laying on the ground, badly singed, in their death positions after they were restored?

No, I think they stood in the position that they stood when Rahvin's lightning hit them. Rahvin's channeling and physical actions were erased. Just like Semirhage's channeling and physical actions were erased when Rand Balefired her. Rand's channeling and physical actions weren't erased.

 

No, Rand did not do it.  He was nothing more than the pair of pliers that Semi was using to kill Min herself.

He actually did it physically. Semirhage hadn't her hands on Min's throat. It was Rand's physical hands on Min's throat.

 

Exactly.  Semi's physical actions were erased.  One of those physical actions was to put the Domination Band on Rand.  Since that Domination Band never got clamped around Rand's neck, Rand never chocked Min.

 

Rand and Min both remember it happening, but it never did.  Just like, in FoH,  Rand and all the Aiel in the area remember seeing Avi, Asmo, and Mat laying dead even though they never were.

[Nightstrike]

What I'm saying is that I think physical actions and channeling gets erased.

 

Mat wouldn't have been inside with the door closed, remembering his arms being slobbered upon, if everybody else's actions also were changed because of someone/something being BFed.

 

This is exactly the reasons that BF causes paradoxes to occur.