Aes Sedai vs Other Strong Characters

[rygar]

I searched this, but never found a topic quite the same.

 

A buddy of mine have a long standing argument about the Aes Sedai and how they apparently rolled over for the Aiel Wise One's, plus, how seemingly absurd it is that the the Two Rivers folks aren't pushed around by them.

 

I love how RJ starts the books with Aes Sedai being all powerful and almost god like.  They assume they are correct at all times and believe they are all knowing.  With a few exceptions like Moraine of course.  Bottom line, the vast majority are pompous blow hards.

 

However, as the stories go on we find out they are completely wrong about so many things.  I especially love how RJ makes them wrong about what they should know best.  From other women channelers - Aiel Wise Ones, the Sea Folk, Sanchen, the Kin, to the number of male channelers, and finally to the limits of their knowledge - healing, traveling, general strength, and Tel'aran'rhiod access.  I mean, the foundation of the White Tower has been struck a potentially mortal blow here.

 

To add to this, they back down at times to the Wise One's, the Two Rivers Folk, and the Seas Folk.

 

My buddy thinks this is the absurd part - this wouldn't truly happen.  That it is not realistic that the Aes Sedai act this way around other 'strong' people.

 

I rather feel it is the natural progression of anyone finding out how little they actually know.

 

Thoughts?

[Durinax]

I think that AS buckle so easily against a nationality who has very strong personalities because they have mostly kept to themselves with few exceptions, so they became really comfortable and suddenly running into a people that are really stubborn or stronger than they puts them into shock for a while, and people like teh Aiel just keep trucking making AS subservient for a time.

 

BTW I love how the AS have taken a beating in respects to how they think they are the best at everything (especially the red in concerns to the BT)

 

a thing that makes me wonder is why arent the AS concerned about forsaken. . .

[MierinWru]

I think the whole Aes Sedai theme is one were RJ really, utterly failed and killed all my respect I had for them.

 

They used to be almighty and mysterious and now?

 

The Dragon is loose, the Aiel are loose, Tarmon Gaidon is incoming VERY soon.

And what are the stupid Aes Sedai doing? Fighting EACH OTHER?

 

I mean... seriously?

Neither the Aes Sedai in the White Tower nor Egwene's followers are Black Ajah so why the hell don't they just grow some brains and work together? The Last Battle is happening soon and they have nothing better to do than this?

No matter what issues the Aes Sedai have with each other, shouldn't they all be wise and smart enough to forget about those issues and do what needs to be done?

The Dark One's about to win the last battle and these ladies can't even agree to some compromise and finally get going again?

 

/rant over

[Yorkie]

I believe its good how they are portrayed in this sense. They start off thinking they know best because they are AS, that the WT is the only place to learn the OP. Then you get a total realisation that the WT is not the sole province of OP usage. This rocks the boat so to speak for any AS, then the realisation that these people have been using the OP longer than any of the living AS really brings their noses out of the sky :).

 

So from someone who is accustomed to..

 

A) Someone who is accustomed to instant respect without personally gaining it, ie respect by group representation rather than individual, by the general populace to be instantly dismissed as petulant children when they meet others who are accustomed to respect earned on each individuals merits is as real world as you can get.

 

B) AS backing down to a WO is again related to the respect argument, if someone believes they know all when they obviously do not, and then throw a paddy you going to get treat like a child. Once the respect is lost it takes ages to regain it, and you will be treat like a child until proven otherwise.

 

The part about not knowing many things stems from the fact that, imho, the AS were in a stagnant or at least a semi-stagnant state, confined by tradition and custom and thus restrained in the discovery of lost weaves, mainly because of their fear of burning out. 

[Mr. Micawber]

I think the whole Aes Sedai theme is one were RJ really, utterly failed and killed all my respect I had for them.

 

They used to be almighty and mysterious and now?

 

The Dragon is loose, the Aiel are loose, Tarmon Gaidon is incoming VERY soon.

And what are the stupid Aes Sedai doing? Fighting EACH OTHER?

 

I mean... seriously?

Neither the Aes Sedai in the White Tower nor Egwene's followers are Black Ajah so why the hell don't they just grow some brains and work together? The Last Battle is happening soon and they have nothing better to do than this?

No matter what issues the Aes Sedai have with each other, shouldn't they all be wise and smart enough to forget about those issues and do what needs to be done?

The Dark One's about to win the last battle and these ladies can't even agree to some compromise and finally get going again?

 

/rant over

 

In their partial defence (since they themselves provided the tinder for this fire; they were pretty much hopelessly dysfunctional already), the split has been stage-managed by the Chosen, Mesaana originally and later with Aran'gar's help, through the Black Ajah.

 

But Elaida was pretty awful already without any help from the Dark (remember, she was a proud participant in one of the Red Ajah seach-and-destroy missions during the Vileness), while Fain's own peculiar brand of Suck corrupted her back in FOH.

[rygar]

I think the whole Aes Sedai theme is one were RJ really, utterly failed and killed all my respect I had for them.

 

They used to be almighty and mysterious and now?

 

The Dragon is loose, the Aiel are loose, Tarmon Gaidon is incoming VERY soon.

And what are the stupid Aes Sedai doing? Fighting EACH OTHER?

 

I mean... seriously?

Neither the Aes Sedai in the White Tower nor Egwene's followers are Black Ajah so why the hell don't they just grow some brains and work together? The Last Battle is happening soon and they have nothing better to do than this?

No matter what issues the Aes Sedai have with each other, shouldn't they all be wise and smart enough to forget about those issues and do what needs to be done?

The Dark One's about to win the last battle and these ladies can't even agree to some compromise and finally get going again?

 

/rant over

 

For a long time i held the belief that deep down RJ hates women, not kidding.  He made the AS look foolish beyond all hope of redemption.

 

However, they are like many a big government we see in operation today so I dont' quite feel the same way now.

[Mablir Dorlig]

A buddy of mine have a long standing argument about the Aes Sedai and how they apparently rolled over for the Aiel Wise One's, plus, how seemingly absurd it is that the the Two Rivers folks aren't pushed around by them.

 

As far as the Wise Ones go they are in charge of the Aiel (despite what the Clan Chiefs may think) just look at Couladin and Sevannah, Bael and Melaine, etc only one in charge) similarly it's the Womens circle in charge of Emonds Field but the Aes Sedai are used to taking orders from their Ajah leader, the Amyrlin Seat, anyone stronger in the power than them...

 

Aes Sedai cannot face up to anyone who has independent thought

 

I love how RJ starts the books with Aes Sedai being all powerful and almost god like.  They assume they are correct at all times and believe they are all knowing.  With a few exceptions like Moraine of course.  Bottom line, the vast majority are pompous blow hards.

 

Such is often the way that those who are ignorant (AS) - I'm not sure Moiraine is exempt from this, she just knows a little more

 

 

However, as the stories go on we find out they are completely wrong about so many things.  I especially love how RJ makes them wrong about what they should know best.  From other women channelers - Aiel Wise Ones, the Sea Folk, Seanchen, the Kin, to the number of male channelers, and finally to the limits of their knowledge - healing, traveling, general strength, and Tel'aran'rhiod access.  I mean, the foundation of the White Tower has been struck a potentially mortal blow here.

 

Ignorance is bliss

 

 

To add to this, they back down at times to the Wise One's, the Two Rivers Folk, and the Seas Folk.

 

Foundations built on sand will always crumble

 

 

My buddy thinks this is the absurd part - this wouldn't truly happen.  That it is not realistic that the Aes Sedai act this way around other 'strong' people.

 

 

I rather feel it is the natural progression of anyone finding out how little they actually know.

 

This is just art imitating reality, people with over inflated egos set themselves up for a fall

 

 

[42Bonzo88]

    Great replies and I will try to bring in my own without repeating.

 

 

    Picture a group that started out by 'saving' the world from the male channelers. They have a special talent that very few have. Over hundreds of years they start to meet in Tar Valon and form thier society. Even in the forming, they are cracking from within because they don't always share all their knowledge with all AS, keeping some secret for Ajah only, or one person selfish enough to keep it to their dying day.

    This group assumes that anyone that has the ability will come to the tower or that AS will bring them. When a group of people won't let AS in for whatever reason (Aiel, Sea Folk) the AS just assume they don't have anyone who can channel, or with the Sea Folk, they send a few every once in a while, so that must be all they have.

      Since they were the original 'savers' of the world they think it becomes their responsibility to meddle in governments to continue that 'saving'. Forgetting over the years that the original AS were Servants of all.

      Once many years have passed and AS were being killed off for trying to study new ways in the power or figure out terangreal, they started stagnating by not 'learning' anything new and so figured all other ways were 'lost' and not recoverable.

    Alot of AS never leave the Tower and 'mingle with the commoners' and lose track of the world in general while still with the mindset that they are superior again because of the 'saving' they did in the beginning, that when these other groups come on the scene with different ways and not being scared to try new things, the AS still feel they are superior because the others are 'wilders' not being tower trained.

    Now, they are stubbornly and/or ignorantly learning different.

[Mr Ares]

Since they were the original 'savers' of the world they think it becomes their responsibility to meddle in governments to continue that 'saving'. Forgetting over the years that the original AS were Servants of all.

Well, being a Servant of All doesn't mean those you serve will like every aspect of being served/saved by you. Just look at Jeeves and Wooster: Bertie doesn't always like Jeeves saving him from his latest fashion choice or hobby.