Moiraine post ToG

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Also, I'm not sure but I don't think there is any evidence in the texts to assume that anyone other than Damer & Nynaeve are able to heal stilling / burning out or any other types of birching.  Especially among the Forsaken!

Nynaeve was pretty much forced to teach all of the Yellows in Salidar how to do it, there is likely a BA-Yellow with them.  Someone earlier posited that they could have been summoned by Ishydin and taken care of Cyndane.

I anticipated that answer and agreeably understand that it's possible, but do not think that it's likely.  The Salidar Aeis Sedai have been under pretty tight raps. 

 

Actually the custom of privacy attached itself almost immediately to travelling. No one may ask questions about where a sister is travelling too, or what their purpose may be. Siuan states that at any one time up to twenty sisters were absent from the camp.

 

That would easily include Black-Yellows.

As I stated, it's possible, but the timing is a little too tight to make an easy speculation. 

 

Nynaeve's healing demos happened in LOC 25 or 26.

 

Egwene arrives in Salidar in LOC 34 or 35

 

First public demonstration of a travelling gateway was LOC 44

 

Moghedian escapes in ACoS's Ch 8

 

Moghedian notes that Moridin has a 2nd Courouvra in ACoS's 25.  He may have had it before Moghedians

 

Basically, the timing of Cyndane's return makes the chance that it was a black Yellow from Salidar suspect at best. At this juncture, I remember someone pointed out that not many sisters were strong enough to create a gateway by themself and had to rely on links.  

 

 

[fratello del lupo]

lol I just found the equation that fits the 5 points (it doesn't fit with the theory though).. y=0. rofl. I'm not sure I've ever seen a method to figure this problem out (and I've done a lot of math in my time). Linear combination to find a Quadratic yields y=0. An exponential curve could theoretically fit but its going to have the form y=ab^x - c and I don't know how to sub in and solve with that c messing me all up and my coordinates containing an additional 2 variables... 5 variables with 5 points would be a 5x5 system with logs thrown in the mix... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh *brain explosion*

 

Yeah I put some time into it last night, working from a y=ab^x-c and about as far as I got was for the system to pass through 0,0, a=c. BUt by then it was very late.

 

And I'm sure this has been raised before, but did RJ in his "21 problems and the source ain't one" comment or anywhere else mention the possibility that people that cannot channel are actually still above 0 but not high enough to do anything with it? Like Morgase, or the suldam, only even less but still above 0?

[TheAngryDruid]

This was a theory up on wotmania a while back, and I don't know if it has been discredited or not, but I thought it did make a good deal of sense to explain the Lanfear/Cyndane strength difference.

 

Now I'm not saying the Lanfear burned out/stilled then healed by a woman approach doesn't have merits, bur there are issues w/ regard to strength loss and Siuan/Leane which are hard to reconcile (though the fixed percentage drop is the best one, with Lanfear being so far above everyone else to start with being the key difference).

 

Anyway, this theory goes something like this:

 

1) It presupposes an AOL trip to Finnland by Mierin in an effort to woo LTT. She wishes for one, two, or maybe three things. She wishes to be as beautiful as a woman can be, as strong in the power as one can be, and/or for LTT to love her. Or possible asking for leavetaking 3rd.

 

When she goes back to Finnland, she has already violated the agreement, by returning. Not to mention wielding the power. The Finns are ticked and take back their gifts. She returns to "normal" Mierin strength.

 

Her decrease in the power isn't a result of being stilled/burned out and then healed by a woman (and no need to work out the power decrease issues relative to Siuan and Leane). It isn't punishment by the DO. It's just the Finns taking back what they have given before (perhaps as part of the original agreement: if you come back or tell anyone, the gifts are forfeit).

 

Why does this make sense?

 

1) There has always been something seemingly about Lanfear's beauty and ability in the power. Both perfect beauty AND max power ability? Seems a little fishy to me.

 

If she went as Mierin (pre Lanfear), she wouldn't have been tied to the Shadow yet, so the Finns would likely have granted the wishes.

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

2) There seems no reason for the Finns to kill her.

 

We have lots of examples (from Mat) of the Finns feeding off the memories/experiences in his brain. They don't get a lot of visitors. So, why kill a prime source of memories & experiences that is right in front of you?

 

Maybe their hatred of the DO would take over, but maybe not.

 

I'd say there is a possibility the DO (as he exists in all realities) realized one of his Chosen was trapped in Finnland, and sent an assassin to kill her, free her soul, so he could get her back, probably doing it in TAR (S.H., slayer, or another Forsaken).  Lanfear, realizing she is trapped, might even have "died" somewhat willingly, despite the cost, knowing she is well and truly trapped and possibly being tortured.

 

I fully admit, that this is almost pure speculation and deductive reasoning. Basically Lanfear being too good to be true, and not having a good reason for the Finns to kill her, and it eliminates the whole Siuan/Leane strength problem.

 

Not that it isn't without problems itself.

 

While it would be hard to explain how her increased looks and strength in the power would have gone unnoticed in the AOL. Maybe she was relatively young and not at full strength yet, and with enormous potential (Cyndane strength) to begin with. Plus, maybe they weren't as obsessed with strength comparisons in the AOL, so it was just attributed to here not being at full strength yet. As for the beauty, maybe she was beautiful already, and her form didn't change, just kind of enhanced somehow.

 

If this was mentioned in the thread, please forgive me.

 

One final observation, if there was concrete evidence one way or the other (or at least a lot of it), then we would know what happened, hence there wouldn't be 11 page threads on the subject. Hence, any expectation to fully explain what happened with non-existent or only anecdotal evidence is kind of unrealistic.

 

What do you guys think?

 

[richnewton82]

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[Mr Ares]

I may have missed it but has anyone speculated on who could have possibly healed Lanfear / Cyndane, assuming it was a man who can channel?

If it was a man, she would have been Healed all the way.

My error - meant to say woman

In that case, the weave was fairly common knowledge in Salidar after Nynaeve's discovery, so some sister from the camp. She could Travel out with no-one knowing. As for which Sister, most likely (although not necessarily) a Yellow. In other words, no idea. As for your references, bearing in mind you can have multiple chapters on the same day, or two weeks apart, it's better if you can use the timeline. LoC 44, which you cite as being the first public demonstration is on days 614-617, Moghedien's escape is day 651, and she meeets Moridin two days later. More than 30 days is time enough, I'd say.

 

What do you guys think?

I think the theory is a load of unsubstantiated crap with no support at all in the series. You can only go through the doorway once, for one thing. As for having to reason to kill her, we don't know that they did. Only that they held her, and she died. And they can feed off her memories as a prisoner. Oh, and as for not having 11 page threads when we know the answer, you'd be surprised. People don't like letting go of pet theories.

[richnewton82]

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[sumquy]

Y'all better knock it off with this 100% speculation. :-)

 

I like the lanfear in finnland idea as I posted at the start of this thread. She didn't have to enter through the gateway she could have gone to the ToG. You know like Mat is doing.

[TheAngryDruid]

 

What do you guys think?

I think the theory is a load of unsubstantiated crap with no support at all in the series. You can only go through the doorway once, for one thing. As for having to reason to kill her, we don't know that they did. Only that they held her, and she died. And they can feed off her memories as a prisoner. Oh, and as for not having 11 page threads when we know the answer, you'd be surprised. People don't like letting go of pet theories.

 

Well, I'm new around here, so I don't mean to throw bombs, but didn't I already say there was no/little evidence to support it? Or can't you read?

 

Second, how do you know you can only go through once? Like you can only find the Green Man once? Do you have any evidence of someone trying to go through twice and not being allowed in? Or just a random Aes Sedai belief that one can't (like not being able to heal stilling)?

 

What I think you mean, is that you can only get our three wishes, or answers, once. The possibility exists that one could enter more than once, but might have dire consequences. Again, if you have evidence proving one cannot enter twice, please provide it, since you seem to be a stickler for evidence.

 

As for the rest, it's not my theory, I was just throwing it out there.

 

And my comment on not having any solid evidence one way or the other stands.

 

At this point, you don't have any "evidence" for your opinion either. Like I said, there isn't really any "evidence" one way or the other for what happened at this point. RAFO. If you don't like speculation on what's happened in various plot lines, I'd suggest not visiting discussion forums.

 

If you have some evidence one way or the other, please present it, instead of making unsubstantiated (if misguidedly solicited)dumb commments about theories submitted by others.

 

Unless I missed it, we don't really know what happened after Moiraine and Lanfear went in. We only know that Lanfear has been reincarnated as Cyndane, with a different body and less strength. That's it. Anything else is almost pure speculation, like I said.

 

[Ashaman DeRouge]

TheAngryDruid: Mat tries to enter the door twice in Tear, and it just acts like an ordinary door if I remember correctly. At any rate, it dosn't let him in again.

 

As for the rest?

 

 

...

[dwn]

At this point, you don't have any "evidence" for your opinion either. Like I said, there isn't really any "evidence" one way or the other for what happened at this point. RAFO. If you don't like speculation on what's happened in various plot lines, I'd suggest not visiting discussion forums.

 

If you have some evidence one way or the other, please present it, instead of making unsubstantiated (if misguidedly solicited)dumb commments about theories submitted by others.

 

Unless I missed it, we don't really know what happened after Moiraine and Lanfear went in. We only know that Lanfear has been reincarnated as Cyndane, with a different body and less strength. That's it. Anything else is almost pure speculation, like I said.

 

The evidence is:

1) Siuan and Leane are stilled, then healed by Nynaeve, which leaves them weaker in the power than they once were

2) Aginor and Balthamel die, then given new bodies by the DO and become Osan'gar (Dashiva) and Aran'Gar (Halima)

3) At some point Lanfear becomes Cyndane and is weaker in the power than she once was

 

From these we can conclude that Lanfear was stilled, killed, given a new body, and healed.

 

Sure it's a theory, but it's supported by directly comparable events in the books and thus not complete speculation. The argument against it is a supposed discrepancy between Siuan/Leane's change in strength, and Lanfear's change in strength. Yet in the books, strength in the power is never clearly defined, so this discrepancy is very weak evidence.

 

The case for Moiraine is weaker, but given that malfunctioning ter'angreal have been known to still channellers, and that her bond to Lan was broken (which stilling would cause), it is likely that she too has been stilled.

 

Lanfear having visited the *finns before is pure speculation since there aren't any events from the books that support such a conclusion.

 

-- dwn

 

[richnewton82]

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[dwn]

so this discrepancy is very weak evidence

 

I don't think so and neither do other people. RJ wrote this series really carefully. We can all agree on that. He's stated there's 21 levels of female power. People have sifted through and figured out where everybody stands compared to everybody else. They've basically worked backwards from evidence to reconstruct his chart. Even without the chart we know Siuane/Leane lost over 50% of their strength and Lanfear lost a very small amount of hers.

 

Saying that isn't important is a pretty outrageous claim. Strikes me as pretty damning evidence that she's not been healed by a woman. Something else is probably at work here.

 

To summarize: passages in the books imply a strength discrepancy, which implies a difference between Siuan/Leane and Lanfear, which implies that Lanfear was not stilled, killed, resurrected and healed.

 

You've just described circumstantial evidence, which is much weaker than direct evidence.  Not only that, but it's circumstantial evidence against evidence supporting a theory, rather than evidence directly against the theory itself (or in support of an alternate one).

 

A woman healing a stilled woman is (thus far) the only logical explanation for Cyndane's strength. Speculation is nifty, but it's not the equivalent of a supported theory.

 

-- dwn

 

[richnewton82]

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[dwn]

She came back with less power. So she must have been healed by a woman. But the situation is different than the other 2 we've seen like it. Oops suddenly circumstantial so we're gonna just keep the same claim going. Still not the best answer we have.

 

Not quite. The strength discrepancy makes the healing evidence weaker. It doesn't invalidate it nor make it circumstantial.

 

Best answer:

 

We don't know what happened. Nothing makes perfect sense. Every theory has a flaw in it. RJ wrote it to be a mystery. The end.

 

No, the best answer is that Lanfear was stilled then healed, because there is evidence to support that and none to support an alternate theory. Yes, the theory isn't perfect. Yes it could be disproven given new evidence.

 

-- dwn

 

[Nightstrike]

Assuming a perfectly symmetric curve (which I don't think is possible, in this case):

Hundreds of thousands of channeler souls, and only 1 in every 200 being stronger than old Siuan. Old Siuan was 0.79 times the strongest female channeler ever! Then she lost more than half her strength. She's now less than 0.40 in strength.

 

If Lanfear lost the same amount of strength, lets say it was somewhere around 0.39, then Cyndane is now at 0.61 in strength. Since old Siuan was at 0.79, then Cyndane is weaker than old Siuan. That does not add up. More than 30 percent of all potential channelers are stronger than 0.61.

 

 

Conclusion: The curve isn't symmetric about the mean, and the mean is much lower than half of Cyndane's strength. And, if a woman Healed Cyndane, then the loss (due to the Healing by woman) is a fixed amount and not a percentage.

 

[Nightstrike]

And on another note...

 

From the saidar 21 level list on the 13:th depository:

Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way.

 

- Lord of Chaos, To Heal Again

 

.....

 

Even Aeldene is [above Siuan] and she’s no more than middling.

 

- A Crow of Swords, An Oath

 

[richnewton82]

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[Muad Cheade]

1). If Lanfear was stilled and healed, she'd look the exact same. The only reason Suian and Leane look differently is because they were bound to the Oath Rod which gave them the ageless look. Ergo, Cyndane and Lanfear would look the same.

 

2). Cyndane means "Last Chance" in the Old Tongue. That pretty much implies that she died and the Dark One brought her back i.e. her last chance at life.

[TheAngryDruid]

TheAngryDruid: Mat tries to enter the door twice in Tear, and it just acts like an ordinary door if I remember correctly. At any rate, it dosn't let him in again.

 

As for the rest?

 

 

...

 

Fair enough. OK, I withdraw the theory, or at least the points about the door and no evidence. I'd forgotten Mat's little misadventure.

 

Still, I'll amend. She could have entered through the TOG the first time.

[Mr Ares]

I think the theory is a load of unsubstantiated crap with no support at all in the series.

 

Suggestion: change "is a load of unsubstantiated crap" to "can't be true because you can only enter the doorway once." Strikes me as slightly less douchbaggy.

Suggestion: change from "posting" to "not posting". Strikes me as slightly less annoying.

 

can't you read?

Can't you post anything worth reading? Instead of a theory already disproved dozens of times before when we already have one with more evidence, fewer holes, that addresses more.

At this point, you don't have any "evidence" for your theory either.

Yes, we do. We have evidence, you don't. If you don't like supporting your theories with evidence when there is evidence available, then discussion board are really not the place for you.

 

Unless I missed it, we don't really know what happened after Moiraine and Lanfear went in.

We know Moiraine's bond to Lan snapped, which we have only seen be caused by death and severing, and we know Moiraine isn't dead. We know ter'angreal are dangerous things that can kill or burn out the unwary, and this one was malfunctioning violently. We know Lanfear was held by the Finns for a time, and that she came back in a new body, weaker. We know the Finns can't give a new body. The only thing we know that can cause a drop in strength like that is being Healed by a woman. So they were burnt out by the ter'angreal, held by the Finns, Lanfear died and came back as Cyndane, and was weaker when Healed. Evidence. Like I said.

 

People have sifted through and figured out where everybody stands compared to everybody else.

No, they haven't. They've come up with a well-supported but still highly speculative list. Some of their placements are reasonable, others are just guesses, not supported by anything. Now, as we don't know what determines strength loss, nor how much the parties lost, arguing over whehter or not there's a difference in amount is unreasonable. There is no difference in kind. That's what's important. That means you have no evidence against this theory.

 

Best answer:

 

We don't know what happened. Nothing makes perfect sense. Every theory has a flaw in it. RJ wrote it to be a mystery. The end.

That answers nothing.

 

Conclusion:

You enjoy using random equations and numbers you've just made up to prove nothing at all.

 

2. Flat out ignore the huge difference between the two obviously different scenarios.

Possible difference in amount. None in kind. No other similar strength loss. No evidence against.

[Nightstrike]

Conclusion:

You enjoy using random equations and numbers you've just made up to prove nothing at all.

No, but you like to dismiss things you don't understand with general remarks that has no meaning to anyone but you. ;D

[Mr Ares]

Conclusion:

You enjoy using random equations and numbers you've just made up to prove nothing at all.

No, but you like to dismiss things you don't understand with general remarks that has no meaning to anyone but you. ;D

My meaning is usually pretty clear.

[Nightstrike]

My meaning is usually pretty clear.

And the relevance is zero.

[Nightstrike]

Less than 1 000 Aes Sedai. Lets say that they are 990 now. Of all potential channelers, some are strong enough to become AS. That's 62.5 percent. Meaning, around 1 584 potential channelers have become 990 AS.

 

Of course, then we have the fact that stronger channelers live longer than weaker ones. And that sparkers are stronger than learners. Sparkers are probably somewhat overrepresented among AS. But lets not complicate things. We could just disregard these facts. For sake of simplicity.

 

Among 1 584 potential channelers, how many are stronger than "strongest 1 in every 200"? That would be 7.92. And how many AS are stronger than Moiraine? Nicola, Cadsuane, Bodewhin, Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, and Sharina. Well, Sharina & Bodewhin aren't AS yet... But, if we look away from that, we have 7 AS-country channelers that are stronger than Moiraine. Fits "strongest 1 in every 200" pretty well. They were even fewer than 7 during New Spring. Maybe Moiraine level is even more rare than 1 out of 200?

 

 

 

[richnewton82]

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