Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[FarShainMael]

Certainly is.. ;)

 

The problem is that there are oddities about Cyn, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Even the Forsaken have noticed: good ol' Demi has his doubts about her identity (WH,  CH13): 'He thought Cyndane was Lanfear until Mesaana told him that she is weaker than Lanfear was.'

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/wh/ch13.html

 

So before your pal William starts waving his razor about, tell him to make sure he's got all the facts that are available.

 

 

That fact and all the other facts are explicable in terms of what we already know - Demi doesn't necessarily know them -specifically he may not know about the possibility of healing. Also, he wouldn't really be capable of judging strength of a saidar channeller.

 

He didn't, that was Mesaana. Of course, she may have been telling porkies, though I'm not sure why she should bother.

 

The Lanfear=Cyndane where Lanfear> Cyndane theory.

 

Moiraine and Lanfear went through the Finn door.

Moiraine snatched the Angreal from Lanfear.

We know that channellers can be stilled/ burnt if they lose the source suddenly.

Lanfear could therefore have been stilled when the angreal was taken from her.

 

Cyndane has Lanfear's memories and PoV - ergo, she is Lanfear transmigrated

She is weaker than Lanfear (though still very, very strong. (stronger than Graendal))

We know that women healed by women are weaker than they used to be.

(However Cyndane is weak only in comparison to Lanfear.)  

 

Much weaker, if Siuan and Leane are indicative.

 

Cyndane was mind-trapped before Moghedien - ergo Cyndane was transmigrated before Moghedien escaped.

(Moridin already had her mindtrap when he mind-trapped Moggy)

Moggy escaped before Dumai's Wells - male healing was discovered only after Dumai's Wells (when Flynn experimented on the women Rand had stilled).

Ergo, Lanfear could only have been healed by a woman. Plenty of BA women knew healing - Dagdara Finchey for  one.

Any of them could have done it

Does stilling carry over in transmigration? Yes it does, according to Maria (MAFO)

Any quotes you want for the above available on request,

 

Yes to the above - if Lanfear was stilled/killed/transmd/Healed, it would have to have been that way.

 

What else?

Ah yes, I'm presuming in the above that Lanfear was killed.

Is it easier to postulate that Lanfear was killed, or to imagine that some conglomerate dual-boot system consisting of Lanfear and Moiraine was sent into sleep mode and then turned into Cyndane?

The razor comes into play here.

 

There are still two problems.

 

1) Lanfear was weaker than she was, but she is still very very strong, as you pointed out. Would she be that strong if she had been woman-Healed of stilling?

 

2)Why would the 'finns throw her out and not Moiraine? Agreed, Lanfear is DF - but Moiraine did more than 'just ask quextions touching on the Shadow'; she dragged a DF into the 'finns' realm. I think they'd be quite annoyed with her. And they tried to kill Mat with much less strong reason.

 

PS: Barid has just posted with thoughts about this..

@Barid: I don't believe Lanfear would have omitted to specify that she wanted to get out alive. Remember that she (as Keille) and Kadere meet the group including Mat and Rand on their way to Cold Rocks Hold, ie. after Mat's encounter with the Eelfinn. Natael/Asmo talks with Mat about his experience, and I'm pretty sure Lanfear would have been listening in.

 

'why would you kill someone you have taken prisoner?'

 

Come to that, why would you kill someone you have given things to, when killing would make that giving pointless, which would surely have rendered any such treaty/agreement as was mentioned on the ashandarei null and void?

 

 

 

[Sharaman]

About killing Lanfear if the Finns killed her)

Possible explanations.

Something to do with the Shadow perhaps?

We know they get hassled by mere mention of the Shadow.

Or she tried to escape?

Or she killed herself in despair after she was stilled?

Or she killed herself hoping GLoD would give her a last chance?

We don't know enough to do more than guess.

 

 

About melting, again could be several explanations.

Rand backed out through the other door.

Maybe there's a difference between the two doors?

 

There may also be some sort of destructive resonance with the door terangreal if it's saidar-based.  

 

Also when Moiraine and Lanfear fall through, both are channeling; Perhaps it can't handle two channelers in unison? Or when / if Lanfear loses the source explosively, the power causes a short circuit of the door.

 

Also Lanfear is channeling fire (which the Finns expressly forbid).

We know the physics of Finnland is different.

If you've ever worked in fire safety/ prevention, there's something called "Flashover" - when the ambient temperature of a place rises to a point where everything lights up simultaneously.

Maybe flashover occurs at a much lower temperature in Finnland, which is why they abhor fire.

   

Again, we don't know enough to do more than guess.

 

About "weaker but still strong" - maybe Lanfear was so strong that even with the scaling back caused by female healing, she is still stronger than Graendal, etc?

Do we know of anything else that causes channelers to diminish in strength?

 

Edit: About not killing Moiraine.

May relate to the 3 questions she asked in Tear or her research with the twins:

One of the Qs could have given her a hint/ answer as to how to prevent the Finns killing her - maybe a password for guesting - hospitality? Alternatively, she could have learnt something while genning up in Arafel.

 

 

 

 

 

[FarShainMael]

Certainly is.. ;)

 

The problem is that there are oddities about Cyn, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Even the Forsaken have noticed: good ol' Demi has his doubts about her identity (WH,  CH13): 'He thought Cyndane was Lanfear until Mesaana told him that she is weaker than Lanfear was.'

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/wh/ch13.html

 

That's because Cyndane is Asmodean. Clearly.

 

Of course. How silly of me not to realise.  :D   ;)   :P

Maybe there's a difference between the two doors?

 

There may also be some sort of destructive resonance with the door terangreal if it's saidar-based.

 

My first reaction was that this is a bit too ad-hoc for comfort.. but as you say there are two doors, and it's not impossible that the Eelfinn door is based on saidar while the Aelfinn door is based on saidin.

 

Is Rand's saidin sword woven from Fire? But it can't be actual flames, or Rand would have no hands left.

 

I see what you mean about flashover, and I suppose if they exist in a high-oxygen atmosphere or similar that would be a reason.

 

About "weaker but still strong" - maybe Lanfear was so strong that even with the scaling back caused by female healing, she is still stronger than Graendal, etc?

Do we know of anything else that causes channelers to diminish in strength?

 

Lanfear was the strongest female channeller that we know of, according to that excellent reference supplied earlier:

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

She dropped from level 21 to level 20.

 

Siuan was level 12 before stilling , and Leane level 11. After stilling/Healing both Siuan and Leane were down to level 5.

 

However, the process may not be as simple as that. Recall various scales of physical quantities such as the Mohs scale of hardness, which is a fairly rough ordering of substances in the order in which they can scratch each other, and is far from linear or even:

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_scale_of_mineral_hardness

 

As you say, we can only guess.. and RAFO.

 

 

 

 

[Sharaman]

Strength of channelers again?

Humour me in the following

Suppose channeling strength is a continuous function with a levy-normal (long-tailed) frequency distribution.

That fits physical skills (sprinting ability, lifting ability, lung capacity).

The "levels" are just a convenient way of thinking of it.

 

Lanfear was at the very far end of the LN distribution at something like > Average+ 8 Standard deviations.  

She was way ahead of any other female channeler.

Siuan and Leane were around mean+ 2 SDs.

Now they've dropped to somewhere like mean minus 1 SDs.

So the healing pushed them down by say, three SD.

If it pushes Lanfear down similarly, Cyndane' strength is now at mean + 5 SD - which means she's still very strong, perhaps still stronger than any other female channeler.

 

 

[FarShainMael]

It could indeed work that way. Stats was one branch of maths I had a lot of difficulty getting my head round, but I think I follow you.

 

[Sharaman]

It would fit both RJ's (deliberately intriguing?) hints about the curve of channeler-strength and what we've seen of healing in the books.

Another way to think about it is, the "levels" are unequally-sized intervals to fit the frequency distribution of channelers.

Edit:

Perhaps the best physical analogy I can think of, upon consideration, is weight.

That's a very long-tailed but semi-normal distribution.

Say the average person is 68 kgs (standard elevator assumption)

The standard deviation is 10 kgs. (dunno what it really is - just a random guess)

Around 65-70% of population is within 48-88 kgs.

 

There are some people (equivalent of Graendal, Nynaeve,) who are 150 kg+ (mean+ 7-8SD)

The Siuans and Leanes are equivalent to people in the 88 kg zone and slashed down to 48 kgs.

There may be one person who is 400 kgs - way beyond even super-sized. (in fact, I'd guess there are a few)

She loses weight dramatically but she's still much heavier than anyone else.

 

[FarShainMael]

Just as well AS don't rank themselves by weight, isn't it..  ;)

 

[dhill]

Can someone do me a favor and ban me from looking at these boards when spoiler info. for ToM does come out. I can't control my self and I will look just like last year. I had the book and read it in three days and still looked on the boards to see what people were saying. I was disappointed to spoil Verin, Rand Vains of gold and other stuff. There needs to be an intervention.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Your banned!

 

Some interesting thoughts there Sharaman and FarShainMael.

 

Another query. Did Rand has his little FatMan in Tear when he went throught the doorway or did he find it when he came out? The door melting could of had something to do with Lanfear using an angreal?

[FarShainMael]

Uncertain. The first we hear of the LFM is when Rand uses it to work the Portal Stone to take his party to Chaendaer (tSR Ch22). However, in Ch15, when Rand appears out of the doorway, he meets Mat, and then Moiraine also emerges. After talking for a short while, Rand leaves. He didn't have the chance to look around then, so he may have searched earlier, or perhaps gone back to the GH later.

 

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

That's a pity. I should really get cracking on a read through so I wouldn't have to ask these questions.

Hey do you know when the new Terry Pratchett book is out FarShain?

[FarShainMael]

Apparently there's something called The Long Earth due out sometime in 2012, it's about a chain of parallel worlds (L-space meets Portal Stones anyone??) The next DW is due in autumn 2011, and there's another Tiffany Aching book due this Sept (though I'm not too keen on that sequence myself).

 

(Hope this doesn't get modded as advertising.. ;)  )

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Cool. Not overly much too pushed on Tiifany Aching books either but you gotta love the wee free men.

[FarShainMael]

Especially Rob Anybody    :D    :D

 

[Sharaman]

Nae King! Nae Quin! We will nae be fooled again!

[FarShainMael]

Give the man some scumble!  ;)

 

Ahem. Back to ToM, quick..

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Yes.  ;)

 

Mesaana is going to get in a scuffle with Egwene in the next book and we will also see something akin to the purge in the white tower in the black tower.

[Sharaman]

I'm hoping for a cat-fight in TAR.

Mesaana is stronger in OP than Egwene (I'm assuming).

But she's weaker in TAR and she did get Sheriam to appropriate dream weavers.

So, maybe she'll be unmasked and escape into TAR where Egwene can follow.

There they can both turn into trollocs, or Meatloaf, or possibly Sergeant Angua-clones and kill each other.

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

:D. Nice one a meatloaf and a Pratchett reference in one but I can see it going down in T'A'R. I honestly thought Egwene would be a match power wise for Mesaana. Isn't Messy the weakest of the forsaken along with Amso?

[Random Man]

:D. Nice one a meatloaf and a Pratchett reference in one but I can see it going down in T'A'R. I honestly thought Egwene would be a match power wise for Mesaana. Isn't Messy the weakest of the forsaken along with Amso?

Being the weaskest Forsaken is a lot like being the guy who took last place in the Olympic weightlifting finals. Egwene would have the fight of her life on her hands if she dueled Messy. I could see it going much like Rand vs. Rhavin.

[Owayn The Traveller]

How much stronger in the power is Nynaeve than Egwene?

Nynaeve handled herself agaisn't Moggy quite well overall.

[Random Man]

How much stronger in the power is Nynaeve than Egwene?

Nynaeve handled herself agaisn't Moggy quite well overall.

Nynaeve is described by Moiraine in EoTW as her potential being as much stronger than Egwene's as Egwene is over Moiraine. Out of 20 possible "levels," with Lanfear at level 20 and Morgase at level 1, the 13th Depository ranks Nynaeve at level 18 (on a level with Semirhage) Mesaana at level 17, Moggy at 16 and Egwene, Avi and Elayne at level 15.  (Moiraine is on level 12). Only five are ranked as stronger than Nynaeve: Lanfear, Cyndane, Graendal, Sharina and Alivia. This is a largely subjective scale, but is probably about as accurate a reading as we have outside of RJ's notes.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/search/label/Channelling?updated-max=2002-03-12T15%3A00%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=20

[Sharaman]

Of course, Egwene is more than strong enough to kill Mesaana.

She also does have damane training, which makes her more conversant with killing weaves than the average AS.

But Mesaana is stronger so Egwene would have to get her shot in first or else, be very tricky indeed in a simple OP battle.

Messi must have a bagful of tricks in the way of killing weaves as well.

But Eg definitely has a big edge in TAR. 

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Well there goes a bit of my ignorance. Thanks.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Of course, Egwene is more than strong enough to kill Mesaana.

She also does have damane training, which makes her more conversant with killing weaves than the average AS.

But Mesaana is stronger so Egwene would have to get her shot in first or else, be very tricky indeed in a simple OP battle.

Messi must have a bagful of tricks in the way of killing weaves as well.

But Eg definitely has a big edge in TAR. 

 

 

Egwene knows almost nothing about TAR compared to the forsaken, she trained for a bit with the WO, but thats not much, I think that even the weakest Forsaken would run circles around her in TAR