Prologue "What the Storm Means" Spoiler Thread

[moosetracks]

Hi all,

 

I've been lurking around these message boards the last couple years and just starting to post and contribute.  I've gotten so much insight into this series from reading everyone else's ideas!  So here's my rambling thoughts on the prologue...

 

I really enjoyed the prologue, and though I was surprised to see Masema taken care of so quickly, it was a relief!  But very illuminating to get his PoV and some insight into his story... my first thought, too, was Demandred with the visions - could be, but Masema's reaction to the glowing vision of Rand seemed so much like Compulsion... could still be Demandred (would the occasional brief side trip to give Masema a vision / Compulsion be much distraction from his main activities?) but it also sounds like Graendel's MO, or maybe Moridin's (corrupting the popular view of the Dragon and sowing chaos in the Dragon's name seem like the kind of twisting of truth Ishy/Moridin likes).

 

As for Demandred, the idea that he's gathered a big army in Shaara is really intriguing, but I'm wondering how he'll transport it to Randland...  The Ways?  There could be Waygates in Shaara, but there's also Machin Shin, and I don't know how you'd get a large army through without a way of keeping Machin Shin at bay... but perhaps Demandred has one.  Otherwise, there's

1. the land route through the Waste - but I think Rand would probably get warning via the Aiel Wise Ones (surely they left some behind?  or did every Aiel cross the mountains?)

2. the water route - but there's been no hint I recall that the Shaarans have much of a navy, and the Sea Folk would probably give warning

3. through the Blight?

 

With the Trolloc attack on the Seanchan, I'm likewise wondering how big a Trolloc army could've been moved through the Waygates.  We saw in TSR that they had to move in small groups to avoid attracting Machin Shin too quickly...  Makes me think either this was a small, freelance operation by someone (whoever's posing as Sammael?), though I'm not sure what the motive would be... Or if the attack was specifically directed at Tylee due to her working relationship with Perrin...

[Mr. Micawber]

As for Demandred, the idea that he's gathered a big army in Shaara is really intriguing, but I'm wondering how he'll transport it to Randland...  The Ways?  There could be Waygates in Shaara, but there's also Machin Shin, and I don't know how you'd get a large army through without a way of keeping Machin Shin at bay..

 

Gateways. There aren't any Waygates in Shara, or the Ogier would know about them (just like there aren't any in Seanchan). Sharans aren't constructs, like Shadowspawn, so they can be transported via Traveling.

 

Moreover, we've already seen Sammael transport the augmented-by-the-Brotherless Shaido clan all by himself or in a link with only Graendal. I'm sure Mesaana would help Demandred with that, if indeed he is in Shara.

 

Actually, I think that if Demandred has an 'angreal, he could probably do it by himself over a few days.

[sumquy]

Two points:

 

1. For Demandred being in Shara. We see from Graendal's point of view that she is frustrated for not knowing Demi's plans or location, but we also know that she has had dealings in Shara. Is it possible for Demi to have risen to such prominence that he could state that he is secure and gathering armies there without Graendal even being aware of it?

2. What if the trollocs that attacked Tylie and the Seanchan were brought there by Semi? We know that it is in the same general area, but far back enough not to have been spotted by Rand's scouts. Now suddenly leaderless they run amok. I didn't even read any mention of myrdraal.

 

At any rate I am totally stoked about the new book. I liked the first chapter even though I caught the differences in style.

[Gilmadin]

With the Trolloc attack on the Seanchan, I'm likewise wondering how big a Trolloc army could've been moved through the Waygates.  We saw in TSR that they had to move in small groups to avoid attracting Machin Shin too quickly...  Makes me think either this was a small, freelance operation by someone (whoever's posing as Sammael?), though I'm not sure what the motive would be... Or if the attack was specifically directed at Tylee due to her working relationship with Perrin...

 

Ok, about the person that can pose as Sammael. I don't know if it's been theorized before, but I think it HAS to be Padan Fain. We saw in TGH that he CAN command Machin Shin. He is the only person that realistically could have found Rand at the manor house in Tear, since he can find Rand like a honing pigeon. The Ways was the only way that many Trollocs could have gotten to Tear/Altara for those attacks without being noticed, and Padan Fain is the only one that could get an army through the Ways. Padan Fain can terrify Myrddraal into doing what he wants. His motive for sending the Trollocs to attack Rand in KoD is obvious. His motive for attacking the Seanchan is a bit more difficult. Padan Fain hates the Shadow as much as he hates Rand -- so he would be willing to steal Trollocs and sow chaos all over the place. Sending Trollocs to attack places where they will be obliterated will weaken the Shadow. That may not be the best motive in the world -- but hey, when was the last time that man could really be called sane? He also may have a more advanced reason we don't know of yet, but bhe's the only one I can see with the ability to do it all.

[Mr. Micawber]

We also know the Fain can create illusions from WH. Which could explain how he impersonated Sammael.

 

That or he just scared the bejezus out of the Lurks.

[Gilmadin]

I think he just scared the bejezus out of the Lurks. Moridin wasn't really sure it WAS Sammael -- it was just his best guess. He thinks that only the Chosen can command Myrddraal. Well, Fain can too. If he can scare Fades into doing what he wants, he can get the Trollocs linked to them to go, too. I don't think anyone else fits, I really don't -- and I've thought about it a lot.

[Luckers]

Fain has forced Myrdraal to obey him before, but he uses the same methods anyone may employ in forcing people to do their bidding--torture. This person did not torture hundreds of Myrdraal into obeying them. He commanded, they obeyed. As Moridin states that means Chosen--or more specifically, it means the Chosen Mark and the compulsion of obedience it induces in Shadowspawn.

 

He is the only person that realistically could have found Rand at the manor house in Tear, since he can find Rand like a honing pigeon.

 

The Forsaken can find Rand through his ta'maral'ailen or by simply asking one of the darkfriends with him were he is through their dreams. For that matter anyone could have had eyes and ears near Algarin's manor. Taim could have found Rand through one of Logain's Asha'men, or more likely, one of their bonded Aes Sedai--who stated they intended to use the schism between Taim and Logain to cause dissention in the Black Tower.

 

So, in effect, no he is not the only one who could have realistically found Rand.

 

If you're interested in this topic, Gilmadin, I did some detailed work on the subject in the following thread. http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,47339.0.html

[perrin51]

We also know the Fain can create illusions from WH.

 

I always wondered how Fain did this in Far Madding when all access to the OP is blocked. The only other source of "magical power" is the DO. Any ideas where is "special abilities" come from? Can it just be the distilled hate and mistrust from Aridohl?

 

I think it would be possible for the Reds with Asha'Man to take down the black at Talene's summons(I highly doubt Taim will let his pets go), I don't think it will happen this way but it's possible

 

Didn't Talene miss that meeting. I remember a POV from Alviaran, in which she muses why Talene didn't show and she remembers her hanging with Pevara & co.

[Luckers]

I always wondered how Fain did this in Far Madding when all access to the OP is blocked. The only other source of "magical power" is the DO. Any ideas where is "special abilities" come from? Can it just be the distilled hate and mistrust from Aridohl?

 

Perhaps rather it is the source of how that hate and distrust got distilled. You see you are actually wrong in saying that the Dark One is the only other source of 'magical power'. Dreamwalking, wolfkindreding, Min's viewings.... There are many seemingly mystical abilities within the world of the wheel that have nothing to do with the Power or the Dark One.

 

The key, I think, is that these abilities all deal with the soul. Even channeling is a function of the soul, and my guess would be that what happened in Aridhol was that Mordeth had the ability to manipulate or draw on peoples souls. He focussed that strength on (or accessed it by focussing those people on) hatred, and thus used their souls to effect the very fabric of reality. It makes sense when you think that each soul is a thread in the pattern.

 

Those illusions would make sense if Mordeth had this power--they were not, as such, illusions, but genuine ghosts--souls Fain pulled forth.

[perrin51]

Thanks Luckers. Never thought about it in that way.

[Charlz Guybon]

I always wondered how Fain did this in Far Madding when all access to the OP is blocked. The only other source of "magical power" is the DO. Any ideas where is "special abilities" come from? Can it just be the distilled hate and mistrust from Aridohl?

 

 

Just a thought, but would the guardian block the True power from being channeled? I think a stedding would.

[Gilmadin]

Fain has forced Myrdraal to obey him before, but he uses the same methods anyone may employ in forcing people to do their bidding--torture. This person did not torture hundreds of Myrdraal into obeying them. He commanded, they obeyed. As Moridin states that means Chosen--or more specifically, it means the Chosen Mark and the compulsion of obedience it induces in Shadowspawn.

 

I'm not trying to turn this into an argument, but I have a few more things to say about this.

 

Granted, others COULD have found Rand. But the combination of things, I believe, is key. Looking at HOW Fain tortures Myrddraal is big. He doesn't just use simple torture methods. He has VERY special abilities, and the truth is that we really don't know what those abilities truly are. Do you really think that mundane physical pain -- the kind of torturing that even the most cruel human beings use against other people -- would have that kind of an effect on Myrddraal? How could he even overpower a Fade using mundane means? How to overpower a Fade? How do you make a Myrddraal surrender? They always fight to the death, or escape at the edge of a shadow.

 

Padan Fain is gaining some abilities that the DO himself possesses. He is somehow LINKED to the DO. In LoC, chapter 29, "Letters" -- Padan Fain is in Caemlyn. He has captured a Myrddraal, and is staying at the home of a Darkfriend woman who is merely a dabbler in the Shadow. Fain admits that he isn't sure where exactly his abilities came from. "Fain did not really understand the tricks he could work. A bit of something from the Dark One, perhaps, a bit from Aridhol." On the very same page (in my edition, at least) we see that Fain is not simply using mundane means of torture on the Fade. "The Myrddraal, peeking furtively, jerked its eyeless face away when it saw him looking. It remembered his . . . tricks very well." So Fain is definitely using his "abilities" to control the Myrddraal. "Tricks" is the same word he used just a few sentences earlier when describing what he had done to the Darkfriend woman's young son. "Tricks" is what he calls the supernatural abilities he has gained. He is a blend -- of Padan Fain, of the Dark One, and of Mordeth.

 

Further evidence that Fain is gaining abilities from the DO himself is this, from the same chapter: "It was the most remarkable thing about Darkfriends. There should be nothing to single out a Darkfriend from anyone else, but of late he found that he could tell one at a glance, even someone who had only thought of swearing to the Shadow, as if they had a sooty mark on their foreheads." If Fain can single out a person that has merely THOUGHT about swearing to the Shadow, he has some crazy abilities that NO ONE ELSE KNOWS ABOUT. As far as Moridin is concerned, only the Chosen CAN command Myrddraal. I doubt that he has any idea that Fain has a bit of the Dark One inside of him. I believe it is that piece of the DO that allows him to control Fades. They recognize it for what it is, and they obey. He merely tortures them because he likes to torture things. How else do you get a Myrddraal to sit still for it? One last evidence of the link between the DO and Fain. tEotW, Chapter 47, "More Tales of the Wheel." Moiraine is describing the journey Fain took follow Rand, Mat, and Perrin from the Two Rivers. She says: "It may be that the Dark One, in doing what he did to Fain, impressed some part of himself on the man..." True, this is only speculation on her part, but still...

 

Now about Machin Shin. Again, I'm not trying to turn this into any kind of an argument. This is a quote by Luckers on a different thread: "The answer to the Machin Shin issue is in its changing nature--ever since it encountered Fain in tEotW we have seen its behaviour change--waiting at Waygates, trying to force its way out and at times appearing as if it might succeed. These changes occurred within a six month period, and it has been a further year and half since then for it to continue to change."

 

I don't think Machin Shin is changing at all. It's just following orders given to it -- again, a piece of the DO that is embedded within Fain. In tSR, when Perrin and CO. traveled through the Ways, Machin Shin acted very much as it did the first time we saw it in tEotW. Another quote by Moiraine while describing Fain's journey was this (about his meeting with Machin Shin in the Ways) "The Black Wind caught him -- and he claimed to understand the voices. Some greeted him as alike to them; others feared him. No sooner did the wind envelop Fain than it fled." I believe the voices that greeted him were those that recognized the madness within him -- for the voices are very mad. The voices that feared him were those that recognized a Shadow greater than themselves within him (e.i. the DO's taint on him.)

 

In tGH, when Machin Shin attempts to get out of the Ways to attack Rand -- it is not merely coincidence that the Black Wind is there -- twice, at two separate Waygates. The first time it happens, Machin Shin is saying all its usual stuff ("blood so sweet, so sweet to drink the blood, the blood that drips, drips, drops so red, etc...") But there is also another description right after this: "And worst of all, a whispering thread through all the rest -- Al'Thor. Al'Thor. Al'Thor." Machin Shin wasn't just acting differently, changing over time -- it was HUNTING Rand. It is far too big of a coincidence that the Black Wind would be chanting his name, and would block his entrance to the Ways in both Cairhien AND stedding Tsofu if it hadn't been ordered to do it. Padan Fain TOLD Machin Shin to keep Rand out.

 

So, he can control Machin Shin. He can control Myrddraal. He can find Rand whenever he wants. Who else has ALL THREE of these abilities. Mazrim Taim? Even if the DO had secretly made him a new member of the Chosen (a theory I actually agree with, I might add) he doesn't have ALL of the necessary abilities to pull off the Trolloc attack in Tear.

[Luckers]

Gilmadin, all of that doesn't change the fact that Fain uses pain to force the Myrdraal to do his bidding. That is torture, irrespective of the source. His tricks, which the Fade flinches at, are to give pain. He is not using his tricks to control them, it's the Myrdraal's fear of his tricks that grant him power over them. And that takes time and effort. This is the quote from him controlling the Myrdraal.

 

Twitching aside his tent flap, Ordeith went in to examine his prisoner, stretched out between two pegs thick enough to hold a wagon team. Good steel chain quivered as he checked it, but he had calculated how much was needed, then doubled it. As well he had. One loop less, and those stout steel links would have broken.

 

With a sigh, he seated himself on the edge of his bed. The lamps were already lit, more than a dozen, leaving no shadow anywhere. The tent was as bright inside as noonday. "Have you thought over my proposal? Accept, and you walk free. Refuse.... I know how to hurt your sort., I can make you scream through endless dying. Forever dying, forever screaming."

 

The chains hummed at a jerk; the stakes driven deep into the ground creaked. "Very well. - The Myrddraal's voice was dried snakeskin crumbling. "I accept. Release me."

 

[tSR-32-Assurances]

 

Fain used his abilities to give the Myrdraal such pain that it surrendered. He did not control it with those powers, he simply tortured it. Fain did not have the time to tie up and torture into submission hundreds of Myrdraal.

 

Fain was not behind the attack. I am sorry.

[Gilmadin]

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. And if I'm wrong in the end, it'll be cool anyway -- whenever I'm wrong about a theory, the reality ends up being far, far better.

[richnewton82]

.

[Ashaman Kovan]

i know moridin is ishy ressurected but i get the feeling that moridin and ishy's behaviour are quite not the same.

 

ishy seems kinda different to moridin. i dunno. Elan morin tedronai was as grandiose and awe striking as they come.

 

moridin seems to be a touch below ishy at least in the madness stakes

 

Maybe being killed does that to you?

[richnewton82]

.

[Cecero]

I am new here, so if this theory seems out of date or has been addressed already, I do apologize:

 

The Shadow will kill Alanna (prbably via Graendal). This will cause Rand a LOT of emotional pain (and lets face it, the killing of a warder/aes sadai in the bonded relationship has been foreshadowed and a lot of time has been on it). Also, if the Shadow kills 1, then the others will fall like dominos (i.e. Rand would feel the pain, then all the others will feel Rand's pain). Think of how many major player's of the light would be basically out of commission? Rand, Elayne, Avienda and Min should Alanna be killed. This way, the primary ones can stay alive through the final battle. (though, there may be no reason for Min to HAVE to be there, she says who MUST be there, but none of it includes her :) 

[iburnbrass]

I am new here, so if this theory seems out of date or has been addressed already, I do apologize:

 

The Shadow will kill Alanna 

 

1)  Who could tell?  There's not enough time to read everything here!  Don't apologize... It's the first I've heard of it.

 

2)  I like your theory!  Alanna would cause him to know pain...

 

When Min sees three women over standing over his funeral bier, she doesn't name the three.  (I am more inclined to think that Min is the one to die.) But Alanna bears thinking.

 

There are some Min phophecies that I can't wait for:

from the first meeting with Rand... a beggar's staff, a bloody hand and white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood;

From ACoS... "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

[richnewton82]

.

[Vambram]

If Alanna dies, Rand will go berserko like Lan did. That doesn't strike me as learning "laughter and tears." Unless it is different when the warder can channel... who knows? 

 

I disagree. The reason why I disagree is that Lan actually cared about Moiraine, and willingly would have given his life to protect her. I truly doubt that the same thing can be truthfully shown from the WOT concerning Rand and Alanna.

[perrin51]

What about the sword that Rand thinks about in the prologue? He seems to recognize it a belonging to someone and he finds this humorous or ironic for some reason. The one sword of note that I can recall being mentioned in the series, is Artur Hawkwing's Justice. Rand would recognize it from Falme when Mat sounded the horn. Justice was spacifically mentioned and no one would recognize it unless they were at Falme. Other possible, but less plausable choices are: Lews Therin's sword, or the sword of one of the Forsaken. There have not been any other note worthy, named weapons in the series. Plus the whole Excaliber connection with Rand uniting the land is a nice touch.

[Astus]

I believe it was already confirmed that the sword was indeed Justice.

[richnewton82]

.

[Vambram]

However, we do have lots of evidence that Alanna has extremely little control, if any, over Rand. So, to me, it would be a leap of logic to assume that Rand would react as a normal warder would when the warder's aes sedai is killed.