The Thread Previously Known As (Something Else) (Chapter 1 spoiler)

[Charlz Guybon]

That could possible(especially since the forsaken were getting free and she realized that the only thing she could do was balefire).  Incidently, does anyone know how wolves can kill darkhounds?  The only thing we've see work is balefire.

 

That's not entirely true. Lan kills a darkhound with a sword, and Perrin kills another with an arrow.

 

Rand comments on the issue.

 

"Even Darkhounds, though if they're really the Wild Hunt, at least the Dark One isn't free to ride behind them. They're bad enough anyway. Some you can kill, the way the legends say, but some won't die for anything short of balefire, that I'm sure of."

 

[LoC-3-A Woman's Eyes]

 

What distinguishes one from another? I don't know. Maybe pure ones, ones just made by whatever was used to make Darkhounds in the first place, cannot be killed short of balefire, whilst turned ones--wolves turned by other Darkhounds--can be killed normally.

 

We do know there are new Darkhounds out and about thanks to Masuri.

I always thought the ones that attacked Rand were a special brand that Aginor made towards the end, Darkhounds 2.0 if you will. I doubt there are many of them around.

[sumquy]

Why does one version of the prophecies have to be false? I don't remember anything we've read about them directly conflicting. My impression was simply that the seanchan version had additional prophecies in them. Maybe he does have to kneel before the crystal throne/tuon.

[Luckers]

Read my post--the one seven posts above your own.

[sumquy]

Ya I did, and I've heard those arguments before. I'm just not convinced. The additional seanchan prophecies could have come from a foretelling, and I don't think we know enough to say that Rand will not bow to Tuon. Especially if she slips one of those male a'dam around his neck, now that they have been copied. We know or at least strongly suspect that that was her original plan.

I'm not a big fan of the theory, I'm just saying we don't have enough info to discount it.

[Luckers]

Did you just... care to respond to the points in it?

 

 

[sumquy]

Thought I did but okay

 

1. The spy wonders why the prophecies over here don't say anything about the dragon kneeling before the crystal throne and he therefore thinks of them as corrupt but that is really just propaganda. To him the crystal throne is infallible and if the empress (may she live forever) says these are the prophecies then as far as he is concerned that is holy writ. My point though is that we don't know that he is wrong. Just because the seanchan added to the prophecies doesn't mean that the source of those additions wasn't legitimate. As for Ishy meddling, I think your reading a lot into a rather oblique and passing reference. We don't know that he had any contact with luthair after he went across the sea. On the contrary we know that he stayed close to hawkwing until his death.

2. I don't see why the kneeling to the crystal throne and binding the nine moons to serve him have to be mutually exclusive. She could slip an a'dam around his neck and compel him or not. If her requirement for a truce is Rand's submission I think he would be unhappy about it, but he says himself, it's all about need right now and he needs that alliance I think there is more story telling to be done before we see that however because the bind the nine moons to serve him implies the use of an oath rod (binder) and I don't think he has one of those yet. I think tuon will do something that causes him to bind her to him. Maybe the attack on the white tower.

 

mostly though I just don't think that an alliance with the seanchan and they march off to TG arm in arm is in the cards. The series has never worked that way. Almost every alliance or conquest Rand has made has been full of cracks and mistrust. I will actually be disappointed if his bringing the seanchan into his camp isn't also.

 

Sorry for the mess. I'm trying to do this on my iphone while at work. :-)

[Luckers]

1. The spy wonders why the prophecies over here don't say anything about the dragon kneeling before the crystal throne and he therefore thinks of them as corrupt but that is really just propaganda. To him the crystal throne is infallible and if the empress (may she live forever) says these are the prophecies then as far as he is concerned that is holy writ. My point though is that we don't know that he is wrong. Just because the seanchan added to the prophecies doesn't mean that the source of those additions wasn't legitimate. As for Ishy meddling, I think your reading a lot into a rather oblique and passing reference. We don't know that he had any contact with luthair after he went across the sea. On the contrary we know that he stayed close to hawkwing until his death.

 

You've still not addressed my post. Here it is again, with emphasis.

 

"The man thinks to himself that the Prophecies of the Dragon are corrupt over here, just as the ones in Seanchan had been before Luthair brought the pure ones over--in particular he sites that neither mentioned the Dragon kneeling to the Crystal Throne.

 

Straight up that is strange--why would Luthair have pure prophecies from this side of the ocean? Who went to the effort of expunging the references of the Crystal Throne to those that remained over here? Why would they do such a thing?."

 

They did not add to the prophecies, they instead cite their prophecies as the pure ones, the originals, presumably from Deindre. From there you need to answer the questions.

 

 

[sumquy]

Im not ignoring your post, I'm saying that just because he thought it doesn't make it true. Weve seen that over and over throughout the series. Nobody expunged the references about Rand kneeling from the prophecies in Randland, they were never in them. At some point somebody added that to the prophecies in seanchan. The question I pose is are the prophecies sacrosanct or did they evolve over time I don think that even the prophecies in Randland are word for word copies of each other or even contain all of the same events as each other. We know that from Rands trip thrugh the glass pillars that other people besides those in Randland have foretellings that are accurate or at least need to be fulfilled in order to fulfill parts of the dragon prophecies. Why not the seanchan too?

[Charlz Guybon]

But the two versions directly clash.

 

He will either bow to the Crystal Throne or bind the Daughter of the Nine Moons to him, it's extremely doubtful he can do both.

[sumquy]

Not neccessarily. The two events don't have to happen at the same time. Rand may kneel to tuon to get his alliance and then tuon knowing the prophecies say the nine moons has to serve him turns around and swears to do so. Or not. Maybe later when rand finds out about the attack on the WT then forces her to it. for all we know a new emporer back in seanchanhas siezed the crystal throne because everybody thought tuon was dead and she's not even the nine moons anymore. There are a lot of different ways that this could play out. 

[Ishmayl]

Is it possible it's Lews Therin's original sword?  That would certainly spark something in his memory (since their memories are now essentially merged).

[sumquy]

Sword has already been confirmed as Justice.

Read the thread before you post questions that have already been answered.

[Ishmayl]

Sword has already been confirmed as Justice.

Read the thread before you post questions that have already been answered.

 

::)  I'm so sorry for not reading 16 pages, and thus wasting your time enough that you had to come back and waste even more of your own time by typing such a pointless response.  Thanks for the info.

[sumquy]

Sorry Bro. I found out in a bad way myself and took it out on you.

[Luckers]

Im not ignoring your post, I'm saying that just because he thought it doesn't make it true. Weve seen that over and over throughout the series. Nobody expunged the references about Rand kneeling from the prophecies in Randland, they were never in them. At some point somebody added that to the prophecies in seanchan. The question I pose is are the prophecies sacrosanct or did they evolve over time I don think that even the prophecies in Randland are word for word copies of each other or even contain all of the same events as each other. We know that from Rands trip thrugh the glass pillars that other people besides those in Randland have foretellings that are accurate or at least need to be fulfilled in order to fulfill parts of the dragon prophecies. Why not the seanchan too?

 

Well, again, the prophecies with reference to Rand kneeling were cited to be brought from Randland by Luthair. Luthair had no Aes Sedai with him to do foretellings, so therefore the prophecies weren't foretold on the trip, and thus came from Randland.

 

As such they should exist in Randland. As they do not someone has either expunged them, or they were made up. Given they contradict prophecy we know to be true, and Ishamael as much as admitted to playing with Luthair as a part of a grand plan to bring dissaster on the world in the time of the Dragon... they were made up.

[aladik]

So, there is still the question of who gave him Justice and why it is significant that they had no idea what they had.

 

I am inclined to think that the lacquered scabbard is probably new.  The sword itself is Justice, but the scabbard was made specifically as part of the gifting of the sword to Rand.  Who, in all of the story, would the sword Justice be most important to?  The Seanchen.  Just throwing this out there, but I get the definite feeling that the sword was a gift for the Dragon Reborn from the Seanchen.  They happened to have a high quality, power wrought sword, created a fine scabbard for it with a dragon theme, and sent it to him as a gift.  We know he has been pursuing peace with them, even immediately after the failed Semirhage plot.

 

I would expect it as a gift from Tuon, after her return.  Good faith, yadda yadda yadda sorta thing.

 

Pure speculation, but the passage about Hawkwing calling for his sword Justice on his deathbed gave me the feeling that not only did he not have it at the moment, but perhaps it was on the other side of the ocean with his son.  Why not?  If you're sending your son across the ocean on a crazy adventure, and you have your empire pretty well in hand, it makes sense in a way to send him off with it.

 

Granted, why wouldn't the Seanchen recognize it?  Valid point.  There is no real way to know I suppose, but it seems plausible that it was lost in the mists of time, and no one in Seanchen really has any idea what Justice looks like.  It's just a fine weapon they managed to find somewhere.  There is a reference somewhere to a Seanchen soldier (maybe Deathwatch Guard?) pondering his family's potential link to Luthair way back.  If that is possible, why couldn't Justice be lost and forgotten?

 

Anyway, I am primarily basing this off of who would not know what they had, and it seems to be pointing at the Seanchen.

[Luckers]

Rand thinks to himself that it's strange that he hasn't heard from the Seanchan yet. Getting Justice in the mail would count as hearing from them.

[aladik]

Fair enough.  It seems likely that it would have deserved more thought if it had come from them, I suppose.  And Justice would count as a sufficiently important relic for anyone to not know what they had.

[Ishmayl]

Sorry Bro. I found out in a bad way myself and took it out on you.

 

It's all good, had a bad weekend myself.  Again, thanks for the info.

 

 

[Mr.Big]

Sword has already been confirmed as Justice.

Read the thread before you post questions that have already been answered.

 

::) [glow=red,2,300][/glow][glow=red,2,300] I'm so sorry for not reading 16 pages, and thus wasting your time enough that you had to come back and waste even more of your own time by typing such a pointless response.  Thanks for the info[/glow].[glow=red,2,300][/glow][glow=red,2,300][/glow]

 

[scott_swampy]

I find it difficult to believe that the scabbard is new and wasn’t unearthed with the sword because:

 

A) The quote from the book seems to me to indicate that it was centuries old:

 

He relaxed his hand on his sword, though he did not release it. He fingered the cloth-tied hilt. The weapon was long, slightly curved, and the lacquered scabbard was painted with a long, sinuous dragon of red and gold. It looked as if it had been designed specifically for Rand—and yet it was centuries old, unearthed only recently. How odd, that they should find this now, he thought, and make a gift of it to me, completely unaware of what they were holding. . . .

 

He had taken to wearing the sword immediately. It felt right beneath his fingers. He had told no one, not even Min, that he had recognized the weapon. And not, oddly, from Lews Therin’s memories—but Rand’s own.

b) Because it is more likely, too my mind at least, that rand would be recognizing the scabbard rather than the sword because, lets be honest, a lacquered scabbard is going to stand out a lot more than a sword. And also because to recognize the sword itself rand would have to be familiar with it witch would mean he would have had to spend some time with it. Witch would mean that some one around him would probably recognize it too, whereas a brightly decorated scabbard Rand could have glimpsed somewhere and still be able to recall it in an instant.

 

Which ultimately brings you to the point of how could it have survived so long. Even if it was not literally underground as some have suggested it still would not have survived centuries. (See above reference) So then the question is how did it survive? Some people have already suggested stasis boxes and a ward. But I have a problem with both of these theories.

 

I will start with the ward and simple ask “Who would have warded it?” Hawkwing was not on good terms with the Aes Sadie during his life and if my memory is correct Ishy even suggested  that with his dieing breath Hawkwing said that the WT most be destroyed. So that them rules out, why would they want too preserve something that might incite people to fellow Hawking teaching later.

 

And secondly the theory of a stasis box. To this point, again unless I am mistaken, the only mention we have of stasis boxes is from the forsaken and they always relate to things from the AOL, which would lead me to believe that the stasis boxes themselves were a relic from the AOL. So then how did anyone get their hands on one after Hawkwing’s death?

 

So that means the sword must have been in some ones possession for at least some of the time between Hawkwing dying and rand being gifted the sword.

 

As too whom, your guess is as good as mine, probable better. Thoughts?

 

[fikkie77]

Both the scabbard and the sword are power-made.

[scott_swampy]

Both the scabbard and the sword are power-made.

 

I assumed the sword was, but how do we konw the scabbared is? or is that just a theory?

[fikkie77]

That´s just a theory, which is supported by the fact that it´s intact.

[scott_swampy]

That´s just a theory, which is supported by the fact that it´s intact.

 

Ahhh... Fair Enough.