Setalle Anan

[dholm]

Forget the TDR example, then. What about when he visits the Aelfinn?

 

Both Rand and Moiraine encountered the Old Tongue there. Mat concludes that he did as well, only he spoke it without realizing it.

[Mr Ares]

A dozen people would have found Setalle in the course of that day's business when Mat arrived at the Wandering Woman, because she was the innkeeper.

So what? They weren't looking for the Bowl. Mat was in Ebou dar as part of the group looking for the Bowl.

Nobody was even looking for the One at that point.

The key was in the finding, not the looking. They found her without looking.

 

At the storeroom, Mat wasn't just instrumental, he was critical in getting the bowl by being the only one able to defeat the gholam

So he was useful in fighting off Shadowspawn and Darkfriends, not finding the Bowl. The Kin led the way. Setalle was the one who led them to the Kin, the Kin led them to the Bowl. So the key was finding Setalle.

 

The dream wording does not support Setalle. She is not "the one who is no longer" because the dream does not mention what she is no longer.

That makes no sense.

The vagueness of the wording is deliberate and imo a clue to the play on the word "one", which Mat is no longer as a result of those Other Men's memories within him.

But Mat is still one. So even if we accepted your interpretation, which we have no reason to do, it still could not be Mat. So we have no reason to say Mat is the one who is no longer.

 

Locating a store on a map is not the same as finding the item you want in that store.

No. Locating the item was what Elayne did, though. After Reanne led her to the store room. After Setalle led her to Reanne.

 

To find is to "come upon" and clearly the bowl was not found at the time in question.

They came upon it when the Kin led them there, not when Mat did. Therefore it was not Mat.

Surely that would count as finding the bowl by your definitions.

No, although it might count as finding the storeroom. But he didn't lead them there.

 

I wouldn't say he is the only personality.

He is. You should.

 

I said he was speaking as them.

Exactly: he is one man, one personality. One. Not many.

 

So if he owns those memories and they are now an integral part of him, with the experiences in them the same as if they were his own - does that mean Mat Cauthon was ever taller than Rand al'Thor?

No. But that is not at all relevant. They are his memories. He is one man. Singular.

 

Their experiences and characteristics are not natively his.

Natively his or not, they are his now. Mat is one, and nothing you have said has changed that.

If Mat thinks he is those other men or those other men are himself - and he does, it means he is no longer one.

No, it doesn't.

 

But he didn't do them so they aren't his experiences.

Which isn't relevant. They are his now, he remembers doing them. He is one man still. One man with other mens memories is still one man.

 

Thinking he did do what those other men did makes him no longer one, but rather a union of them and him.

United into one, and thus one.

 

To identify is to become and in becoming those other men Mat is no longer just himself.

He is a new Mat from the Mat he was before, but he is still one man. He was one man with holes in his mind, now he's one man with the holes filled.

 

A gay Mat would in discovering his attraction to men, experience his own fears and conflicts and the courage it would require to embrace his homosexuality.

Side point, but the westlands have no stigma against homosexuality, so this would be rather less of an issue.

A Mat with someone else's memories remembers doing things and thinking in ways that do not correspond to the real Mat's life.

Which is utterly irrelevant. The question is, is Mat one man, and the answer is emphatically yes. Nothing you have said has changed that.

 

He is not acting solely as Mat would

He is, he is acting soloely as the Mat he is now would. A different Mat would act differently, but the one we have is still one man.

 

The Mat with battle skills is the combination of Mat and those other military men.

Combined into one. So he is one.

[Mandragoran]

Forget the TDR example, then. What about when he visits the Aelfinn?

 

Both Rand and Moiraine encountered the Old Tongue there. Mat concludes that he did as well, only he spoke it without realizing it.

That would again go back to the Healing in TDR. Past and Present became one in the strain between the Power and the dagger. That's when Mat gains his first Other Memory.

 

A dozen people would have found Setalle in the course of that day's business when Mat arrived at the Wandering Woman, because she was the innkeeper.

So what? They weren't looking for the Bowl. Mat was in Ebou dar as part of the group looking for the Bowl.

Mat was not looking for anything just like those dozen people, his only job was to keep the women safe and he wasn't told why they were in Ebou Dar. He split from the group along with his men because it became intolerable to stay with them any longer. In splitting up, he was no longer part of the search, with no further contact or meetings until much later.

 

Nobody was even looking for the One at that point.

The key was in the finding, not the looking. They found her without looking.

They didn't find Setalle at all, she found them so you can't apply the wording to her. And she found them solely as a result of them finding Mat at the inn; after they began to associate the finding of the bowl with finding the right person to get them the bowl. That's Mat, not Setalle.

 

At the storeroom, Mat wasn't just instrumental, he was critical in getting the bowl by being the only one able to defeat the gholam

So he was useful in fighting off Shadowspawn and Darkfriends, not finding the Bowl.

Mat in being the only one capable of defeating the gholam fulfills those "pitfalls and snares" terms of the dream. Without that, they would all be dead and the "wrong hands" would have the bowl, which was also a possibility. The obstacles mentioned in the dream form the reasoning for why the one should be found, which doesn't apply to Setalle.

 

The dream wording does not support Setalle. She is not "the one who is no longer" because the dream does not mention what she is no longer.

That makes no sense.

 

But Mat is still one. So even if we accepted your interpretation, which we have no reason to do, it still could not be Mat. So we have no reason to say Mat is the one who is no longer.

In "the one who is no longer" there is no mention of being "able to channel" or being "aes sedai", you'd have to tack those interpretations on top of the original wording for them to mean Setalle.

 

You don't have to accept my interpretation of Mat being no longer one for the wording to apply. If you're basing your Setalle interpretations on the wording by adding to it, then you could do the same for Mat and say he is "the one who is no longer":- "a farmboy" - "filled with just his own memories" - "tainted by the evil of shadar logoth" - "the Hornsounder(if his death counts?)" or any random interpretation that applies to Mat.

 

Locating a store on a map is not the same as finding the item you want in that store.

No. Locating the item was what Elayne did, though. After Reanne led her to the store room. After Setalle led her to Reanne.

To find is to "come upon" and clearly the bowl was not found at the time in question.

They came upon it when the Kin led them there, not when Mat did. Therefore it was not Mat.

No, although it might count as finding the storeroom. But he didn't lead them there.

The dream does not mention leading anyone anywhere, it only talks of finding. And Mat definitely found the storeroom first, having come upon it in trying to find the bowl. It was because of finding Mat that Setalle found them, only because of Mat that Setalle decided to take them to the Kin so Mat stands at the root of events you credit to Setalle and Elayne confirms this. So if Mat had no further involvement in finding the bowl beyond his link to Setalle, his role in its retrieval would still hold greater weight than hers since that's all she's ever credited for.

 

Anyway they came upon the storeroom together, Mat included, with Setalle nowhere in the picture. However they had trouble actually finding the bowl, with Kin getting wounded or killed left, right and center and it's only due to Mat's presence ridding them of the gholam that the bowl was found.

 

I wouldn't say he is the only personality.

He is. You should.

Not when the passive personalities within those memories show through him and he becomes them.

 

I said he was speaking as them.

Exactly: he is one man, one personality. One. Not many.

Speaking as them, adopting their personalities & thoughts. Him and them. Many. No longer one.

 

So if he owns those memories and they are now an integral part of him, with the experiences in them the same as if they were his own - does that mean Mat Cauthon was ever taller than Rand al'Thor?

No. But that is not at all relevant. They are his memories.

They're other men's memories and that's how they're described in the books. And it's entirely relevant since those experiences make Mat who he is in his head, which does not correspond to his reality.

 

Their experiences and characteristics are not natively his.

Natively his or not, they are his now. Mat is one, and nothing you have said has changed that.

They are in him, but they are not his. They happened to other men. Remembering he was taller than Rand means Mat is no longer thinking exclusively as himself but as him and other men, hence no longer one.

 

But he didn't do them so they aren't his experiences.

Which isn't relevant. They are his now, he remembers doing them.

They're other men's experiences that he only remembers doing but did not do, hence not him. You're still applying ownership to an identity issue.

 

Thinking he did do what those other men did makes him no longer one, but rather a union of them and him.

United into one, and thus one.

Many men united within one and thus many.

 

To identify is to become and in becoming those other men Mat is no longer just himself.

He is a new Mat from the Mat he was before, but he is still one man. He was one man with holes in his mind, now he's one man with the holes filled.

With other men's memories. Which makes him no longer one.

 

A gay Mat would in discovering his attraction to men, experience his own fears and conflicts and the courage it would require to embrace his homosexuality.

Side point, but the westlands have no stigma against homosexuality, so this would be rather less of an issue.

I know.

 

Which is utterly irrelevant. The question is, is Mat one man, and the answer is emphatically yes.

The question is, is Mat no longer one, and the answer to that is simply yes.

 

The Mat with battle skills is the combination of Mat and those other military men.

Combined into one. So he is one.

Combination of many military men, each with distinctive personalities, so no longer one.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Mat in being the only one capable of defeating the gholam fulfills those "pitfalls and snares" terms of the dream.

Irrelevant. The key to finding the Bowl is not emntioned as getting them past the pitfalls and snares. So this says nothing for Mat.

 

In "the one who is no longer" there is no mention of being "able to channel" or being "aes sedai"

There is no mention of being no longer one, either. And even if we did accept that, it is still not Mat because he is still one.

 

The dream does not mention leading anyone anywhere, it only talks of finding.

And Elayne found the Bowl.

And Mat definitely found the storeroom first

But not the Bowl.

 

Anyway they came upon the storeroom together, Mat included, with Setalle nowhere in the picture.

But she was the key to finding it, not the person who actually found it. And she was indeed the key - she led them to the Kin. And you say that Mat found the store, but he found the store by following the Kin, after Elayne and Nynaeve set him watching them. And they found the Kin because of Setalle. So Mat only found it because he found Setalle first. So they key lay in finding Setalle, or they would never have found it.

 

You still have no reason why Mat is more than one person. But while they could have found the Bowl without Mat, they could not have found it without Setalle, as she led them to the Kin who led them all - Elayne, Nynaeve and Mat - to the Bowl. So finding Setalle proved the Key to finding the Bowl, because if they had never found her they never would have found the Kin, so Mat would never have been able to follow them to the stashhouse, so Setalle was the Key. It all comes down to Setalle.