Setalle Anan

[Dmitri]

Mat is the dominant personality in that man, but with those other memories with him he is not alone and no longer counts as one. A Juilin would count as one, and so would a Thom but Mat is not the same with other men in him. A Juilin or a Thom would never unknowingly speak as Lords or Princes while being themselves.

 

Sorry, but that's far from the truth and simply wrong. Mat is one person, no matter of his memories. Every person acts based on his own and acquired memories and experience. Even Juilin. Even you.

 

And Rand, who sent Mat to Salidar, fits even better - that's the one who surely is "no longer one" - with LTT in his head, quite alive.

 

[Braus]

Cadsuane knew Setalle Anan as far as i remember and i think she mentions it somewhere before, around or after the cleansing :P. And somewhere in the books its indeed mentioned that she got burned out studying angreal, or at least that she were interested in angreals. And as you said the conversation between Mat and Setalle.

[Hybrid]

Just think of how boring Dragonmount would be without theories like this.

 

A single human in WOT has one body, one soul, one mind.  Mat has one body, one soul, one mind.  Ergo, Mat is a single human being.  What part of this progression escapes you?

 

From LOC:

"Slices of other men's lives packed his head now, thousands of them, sometimes only a few hours, sometimes years altogether though in patches, memories of courts and combats stretching for well over a thousand years, from long before the Trolloc Wars to the final battle of Artur Hawkwing's rise. All his now, or they might as well be." [LOC: 5, A Different Dance, 113]

So you are claiming that a few hours worth of memories defines a human being?

 

Furthermore,

RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said [he wanted] to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.

If the memories were stolen from men, that would seem to imply that a single memory does not a man make.  You can't steal someone from themselves.

 

And that's not counting that the author isn't using her to beat us over the head with clues.

How ironic.

[CTM]

Birgette.

 

Without her, they never would have went to Mat. at least not with an attitude that would have ended favourably. There would be no apologies without birgette, no promises.

 

quotes:

 

chapter 21 a crown of swords   

"I feared you might remember who i used to be"

"Birgette Silverbow. Faith of the Light, I'm not sure i am still that woman."

" I'm no hero now, only another woman to make my way"

 

the one who is no longer. . . A hero, a legend. take your pick. :)

[Mandragoran]

Mat is the dominant personality in that man, but with those other memories with him he is not alone and no longer counts as one. A Juilin would count as one, and so would a Thom but Mat is not the same with other men in him. A Juilin or a Thom would never unknowingly speak as Lords or Princes while being themselves.

Sorry, but that's far from the truth and simply wrong. Mat is one person, no matter of his memories. Every person acts based on his own and acquired memories and experience. Even Juilin. Even you.

 

And Rand, who sent Mat to Salidar, fits even better - that's the one who surely is "no longer one" - with LTT in his head, quite alive.

Except you can't count those memories and experiences as Mat's. They're not his, they belong to Other Men. Which is why I've previously compared a other-memory containing Mat with a hypothetical other-memory-free Mat. That hypothetical Mat would have had to gain experience for himself just like anybody else, with painful lessons, failures as well as successes; but they'd be his, based on his actions, done on his terms, meaning the experiences would be his own based on HIS personality and HIS perspective. That hypothetical Mat would never have gotten himself involved in or killed in a myriad battles and situations. The Other memories come from people who gained those experiences as a result of their own unique choices and decisions, based on their individual personalities, not Mat's.

 

And yes, Rand would have fit better. But given how he is not involved in the actual finding of the bowl, I believe it disqualifies him. Setalle too was merely incidental in the discovery of its location but was not involved in its Finding. Neither can be described as the Key vis a vis Mat.

 

Just think of how boring Dragonmount would be without theories like this.

Now that's ironic considering there's now more reasoned backing for Mat being the one than for Setalle. Seriously, why is Setalle the one?

 

A single human in WOT has one body, one soul, one mind.  Mat has one body, one soul, one mind.  Ergo, Mat is a single human being.  What part of this progression escapes you?

His one mind is cluttered by the memories of numerous other men. Other people's memories that fill him where his own memories should have been. He often refers to them to inform his conscious decisions and actions. Their influences even go to the extent of making him act like different men without his conscious knowledge. Birgitte's statement about the Manetheren Lord and Eharoni Prince reveals this behavior to be rather specific in its manifestation of those other selves. How does that conform to the norm of a single human being?

 

From LOC:

"Slices of other men's lives packed his head now, thousands of them, sometimes only a few hours, sometimes years altogether though in patches, memories of courts and combats stretching for well over a thousand years, from long before the Trolloc Wars to the final battle of Artur Hawkwing's rise. All his now, or they might as well be." [LOC: 5, A Different Dance, 113]

So you are claiming that a few hours worth of memories defines a human being?

No, I'm saying a person's actions define them. And Mat's actions are routinely based on what these Other Men within him have done.

 

Furthermore,

RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said [he wanted] to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.

If the memories were stolen from men, that would seem to imply that a single memory does not a man make.  You can't steal someone from themselves.

Does being stolen from them imply they were robbed of the memory or that those memories were copied/duplicated. Mat thinks the Finns are continuously accessing his memories but he hasn't lost anything yet(and yes I have considered the Finns being the explanation to Mat no longer being One). Anyway, even if you lose a memory, you're still basing your life on your own because you have other ones also of your own. Although Mat often ruminates on his earlier loss of memory and it bothers him greatly.

 

Birgette.

 

Without her, they never would have went to Mat. at least not with an attitude that would have ended favourably. There would be no apologies without birgette, no promises.

 

quotes:

 

chapter 21 a crown of swords   

"I feared you might remember who i used to be"

"Birgette Silverbow. Faith of the Light, I'm not sure i am still that woman."

" I'm no hero now, only another woman to make my way"

 

the one who is no longer. . . A hero, a legend. take your pick. :)

I did consider this. And excepting that the rest of her role in events was mostly limited to guarding Elayne's back, among other issues, it's a strong possibility. Certainly more than Setalle. Good thoughts. :)

 

 

[dholm]

Practically everyone agrees it is Setalle Anan. Give it a rest.

[Mr Ares]

The finding issue has been mentioned before this.

And you haven't shot it down. Rand knew where Mat was, roughly, and the girls knew where Mat was staying. They didn't know where "the one who is no longer" was. So it cannot be Mat.

 

Mat is the dominant personality in that man

By virtue of being the only personality in that man. He is one man. One man with a few memories from other men is still just one man. But, if you can find an example of Mat being referred to in the plural, you may just have a point. You currently don't. Mat is one man.

 

knowing the location is not the same as finding the bowl.

...Yes, it is.

If knowing where the bowl was was all it took then either Nynaeve or Elayne would qualify as the one.

Except for the fact that they didn't know where it was. Hence the looking for it.

 

Except you can't count those memories and experiences as Mat's.

Well, they were given to him. I'd say that makes them his, even if he didn't live them. If I bought a VC, then it is mine. I own it. Even if it was never awarded to me.

That hypothetical Mat...

Is irrelevant. A Mat who got memories one way and a Mat who got them another might be slightly different, with different memories, but that doesn't mean that one of them is suddenly several people. Mat is one man, regardless of how his memories were acquired.

Setalle too was merely incidental in the discovery of its location but was not involved in its Finding.

Well, she led them to the Kin, who led them to the Bowl. Thus she is the key to finding it.

 

Now that's ironic considering there's now more reasoned backing for Mat being the one than for Setalle.

No, there is nothing to support Mat. Nothing at all. And everyone can see that but you. Now, stop a minute, try and get some perspective. You've come up with this little pet theory, and you're attached to it, but your explanations are falling on deaf ears. Consider whether that is because you're not doing a very good job of explaining, because every other Wheel of Time fan is completely unreasonable, or because there is just nothing to support it. Really think about that. Because if there is nothing to support it, there is no point continuing until you have something, if we are all unreasonable, and you are the sole voice of reason, then there is no point continuing as we will not listen, and if you are not doing a very good job of explaining then come back once you've thought of a better way. Because as it is, you are just repeating yourself to no gain, with no support, and no-one thinks your theory is credible.

 

His one mind is cluttered by the memories of numerous other men.

So what? He is still one man, with one personality, and one soul.

[Hybrid]

Just think of how boring Dragonmount would be without theories like this.

Now that's ironic considering there's now more reasoned backing for Mat being the one than for Setalle.

Indeed.

 

"It's Mat because I like the little play on words in the dreams and I believe that Mat is actually one thousand men in one body.  It's not Setalle because I said so."

 

Seriously, why is Setalle the one?

The theory concerning Setalle is deadly serious, I assure you.

 

A single human in WOT has one body, one soul, one mind.  Mat has one body, one soul, one mind.  Ergo, Mat is a single human being.  What part of this progression escapes you?

His one mind is cluttered by the memories of numerous other men. Other people's memories that fill him where his own memories should have been. He often refers to them to inform his conscious decisions and actions.

And I could refer to, say, my mathematics teacher to make an informed decision on a math test.  Technically my memories are based on his teachings, so in a way I'm using his knowledge.  It doesn't mean I am multiple people.

 

He remains one body, one soul, one mind.  The extra memories are just like receiving a transfusion of someone else's blood.  It doesn't make you multiple people.

 

Their influences even go to the extent of making him act like different men without his conscious knowledge.

They do not.  They give him different accents and experiences, but he still acts like Mat. 

 

As far as this theory of acting like different men goes, how would you define someone who is drugged and doesn't act like themselves?  Are they suddenly multiple people?

 

No, I'm saying a person's actions define them. And Mat's actions are routinely based on what these Other Men within him have done.

Poetic, but false.  Mat's actions are based on Mat's personality.  He uses the experience from those memories to influence his judgement, but ultimately the decision is his.  It's the same as reading Coumadrin's book and taking its advice into account.

 

Does being stolen from them imply they were robbed of the memory or that those memories were copied/duplicated.

I concede this as a flawed argument on my part, actually, but it does not affect my conclusion regarding the larger theory.

[Mandragoran]

The finding issue has been mentioned before this.

And you haven't shot it down. Rand knew where Mat was, roughly, and the girls knew where Mat was staying. They didn't know where "the one who is no longer" was. So it cannot be Mat.

You haven't shot Mat down on the 'finding' issue either. If you're applying the same standards to both characters then they didn't find Setalle, she found them so the wording of the dream doesn't apply to her. The girls still had to look for Mat. And the finding criteria doesn't work against Mat from the Wise Ones perspective who worded the dream, as since they didn't know who the One was, he'd have to be found.

 

Mat is the dominant personality in that man

By virtue of being the only personality in that man. He is one man. One man with a few memories from other men is still just one man. But, if you can find an example of Mat being referred to in the plural, you may just have a point. You currently don't. Mat is one man.

I wouldn't say he is the only personality. The others do exist albeit passively in their memories. When Mat experiences those memories, he does so as those men, experiencing their thoughts and living out their actions.

 

I thought Birgitte's statement was a fine example of Mat acting as other men. "One sentence, you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect."

 

knowing the location is not the same as finding the bowl.

...Yes, it is.

No it's not, all you've learned is the location. You have not found the bowl. (here)

 

Except you can't count those memories and experiences as Mat's.

Well, they were given to him. I'd say that makes them his, even if he didn't live them. If I bought a VC, then it is mine. I own it. Even if it was never awarded to me.

Not sure what you meant by a VC, a VCR? Anyway that's a highly flawed comparison because memories are an integral part of what makes a person them. It's not a question of ownership but identity. Those memories and experiences are not him, or rather at least they're not supposed to be. They come from other men.

 

That hypothetical Mat...

Is irrelevant. A Mat who got memories one way and a Mat who got them another might be slightly different, with different memories, but that doesn't mean that one of them is suddenly several people. Mat is one man, regardless of how his memories were acquired.

One Mat would have lived his own life. The no-longer-one Mat has practically lived and died as other men. It is entirely relevant.

 

Setalle too was merely incidental in the discovery of its location but was not involved in its Finding.

Well, she led them to the Kin, who led them to the Bowl. Thus she is the key to finding it.

That makes her the 'key'(I prefer to say link) to the Kin, nothing more. Mat led to Setalle in the first place. Mat also discovered and declared the location to the bowl before the Kin could reveal it. And Mat's involvement was crucial to the actual finding of the bowl.

 

His one mind is cluttered by the memories of numerous other men.

So what? He is still one man, with one personality, and one soul.

That personality is acting as those other men would based on their own experiences. In those experiences, he is them and his real world actions are often a blend of Mat and them.

 

"It's Mat because I like the little play on words in the dreams and I believe that Mat is actually one thousand men in one body.  It's not Setalle because I said so."

Actually canon (Elayne & Birgitte) said so. And the events concerning the bowl as laid out by the author largely center around Mat in a definitive way. The play on words is IMO the only evident clue in the stated dream, because the evidence neither specifies what the One is no longer and it certainly doesn't mention "Aes Sedai" or "able to channel". Even if you completely disregard my interpretation of the Dream and insert your own(please feel free to), Mat's role as key to finding the bowl is quite incontrovertible. Especially vis a vis Setalle.

 

Seriously, why is Setalle the one?

The theory concerning Setalle is deadly serious, I assure you.

Which is honestly surprising as there is little factual evidence to support her. The criticisms applied to Mat's case can be argued but the same criticisms overwhelm Setalle's.

 

His one mind is cluttered by the memories of numerous other men. Other people's memories that fill him where his own memories should have been. He often refers to them to inform his conscious decisions and actions.

And I could refer to, say, my mathematics teacher to make an informed decision on a math test.  Technically my memories are based on his teachings, so in a way I'm using his knowledge.  It doesn't mean I am multiple people.

 

He remains one body, one soul, one mind.  The extra memories are just like receiving a transfusion of someone else's blood.  It doesn't make you multiple people.

Those would be your memories of your mathematics teacher and your experiences with him and the knowledge filtered and absorbed through your personality. How much you learned from him would depend on how good you are at math.

 

The extra memories would be like having your mathematics teacher inside you, not as an active entity no, but you'd know his experiences as him, based on what he learned as a student from his math teacher, the work he put in to gain his teaching position, his years of work experience teaching students(including you), etc.

 

Their influences even go to the extent of making him act like different men without his conscious knowledge.

They do not.  They give him different accents and experiences, but he still acts like Mat. 

 

As far as this theory of acting like different men goes, how would you define someone who is drugged and doesn't act like themselves?  Are they suddenly multiple people?

Actually when someone is intoxicated, they tend to be more unrestrained versions of themselves. If they imitate someone else it would be their own interpretation of what that someone is like. (You might not agree that I do a decent impersonation of Jack Nicholson.)

 

If those OM give him anything more, whether its accents, combat skills, battle strategy and it shows through his actions then he is acting as both Mat and those other men.

 

No, I'm saying a person's actions define them. And Mat's actions are routinely based on what these Other Men within him have done.

Poetic, but false.  Mat's actions are based on Mat's personality.  He uses the experience from those memories to influence his judgement, but ultimately the decision is his.  It's the same as reading Coumadrin's book and taking its advice into account.

Those experiences aren't the same as knowledge gained through reading. You and I can read the same passage or receive the same advice and come to varied conclusions based on how we think. Reading Comadrin isn't the same as fighting him in battle. With the memories as a part of him, he has lived through those experiences as them. The Other Memories give Mat a first person awareness of being them in similar situations and that's not the same as learning or being informed. Mat is often unable to distinguish between whether something has occurred in his past or of those other men.

 

I apologize if I can't express myself clearer than this but I do want to try if anyone is willing to listen. This isn't much of a pet theory as a discovery. I hadn't developed this beyond the core idea before I began discussing it here. So I apologize for the protracted arguments that have resulted. If anything, I'd say this discussion has entirely shaped my position so even if it stays with me it's been worth it and I am grateful to those who've taken part. Thanks.

 

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Mandragoran. Birgitte was commenting on Mat's accent. She does not mean he was literally an Eharoni High Prince and a First Lord of Manetheren. She means that his accent was switching while he was talking, because he unconsiouscly learned the words from 2 different memories. So please, shut up about that quote. Its irrelevant except for the fact that it comments on his accents.

[dholm]

The finding issue has been mentioned before this.

And you haven't shot it down. Rand knew where Mat was, roughly, and the girls knew where Mat was staying. They didn't know where "the one who is no longer" was. So it cannot be Mat.

You haven't shot Mat down on the 'finding' issue either. If you're applying the same standards to both characters then they didn't find Setalle, she found them so the wording of the dream doesn't apply to her. The girls still had to look for Mat. And the finding criteria doesn't work against Mat from the Wise Ones perspective who worded the dream, as since they didn't know who the One was, he'd have to be found.

Mat found Setalle. No one had to find Mat. It doesn't work.

 

Mat is the dominant personality in that man

By virtue of being the only personality in that man. He is one man. One man with a few memories from other men is still just one man. But, if you can find an example of Mat being referred to in the plural, you may just have a point. You currently don't. Mat is one man.

I wouldn't say he is the only personality. The others do exist albeit passively in their memories. When Mat experiences those memories, he does so as those men, experiencing their thoughts and living out their actions.

 

I thought Birgitte's statement was a fine example of Mat acting as other men. "One sentence, you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect."

I feel pretty certain RJ has said Mat has only one soul and only one personality.

 

They are memories, and they do not change Mat in any way other than how memories do. All of the memories are filtered through his personality. The accents is just that: Accent. It pertains to how he learned the Old Tongue. It certainly doesn't mean someone else is speaking through him; for one thing, he knows exactly what it is he is saying (even if he doesn't know in what language he does so).

 

knowing the location is not the same as finding the bowl.

...Yes, it is.

No it's not, all you've learned is the location. You have not found the bowl. (here)

You're splitting hairs.

 

Except you can't count those memories and experiences as Mat's.

Well, they were given to him. I'd say that makes them his, even if he didn't live them. If I bought a VC, then it is mine. I own it. Even if it was never awarded to me.

Not sure what you meant by a VC, a VCR? Anyway that's a highly flawed comparison because memories are an integral part of what makes a person them. It's not a question of ownership but identity. Those memories and experiences are not him, or rather at least they're not supposed to be. They come from other men.

Yet they are now an integral part of him, not of other men. Everything that comes from those memories are filtered through Mat's personality; they do not impart him with a personality of their own. When Mat isn't aware of the memories not being his, he thinks of them as having lived them himself. They work just as any experience you have had works. The fact that they once belonged to other men doesn't change that.

 

That hypothetical Mat...

Is irrelevant. A Mat who got memories one way and a Mat who got them another might be slightly different, with different memories, but that doesn't mean that one of them is suddenly several people. Mat is one man, regardless of how his memories were acquired.

One Mat would have lived his own life. The no-longer-one Mat has practically lived and died as other men. It is entirely relevant.

No, it isn't. It changes nothing. They do not change him any more than any other experience he has does.

 

Setalle too was merely incidental in the discovery of its location but was not involved in its Finding.

Well, she led them to the Kin, who led them to the Bowl. Thus she is the key to finding it.

That makes her the 'key'(I prefer to say link) to the Kin, nothing more. Mat led to Setalle in the first place. Mat also discovered and declared the location to the bowl before the Kin could reveal it. And Mat's involvement was crucial to the actual finding of the bowl.

To be perfectly correct, Setalle is not actually the "key" -- the key was finding the one who is no longer. Setalle is that person.

 

His one mind is cluttered by the memories of numerous other men.

So what? He is still one man, with one personality, and one soul.

That personality is acting as those other men would based on their own experiences. In those experiences, he is them and his real world actions are often a blend of Mat and them.

No. His actions are completely Mat's. If they weren't, he'd complain about doing stuff he didn't intend to do. The memories are filtered through Mat -- Mat acts on them, but it is HIS choice and HIS interpretation of them.

 

"It's Mat because I like the little play on words in the dreams and I believe that Mat is actually one thousand men in one body.  It's not Setalle because I said so."

Actually canon (Elayne & Birgitte) said so. And the events concerning the bowl as laid out by the author largely center around Mat in a definitive way. The play on words is IMO the only evident clue in the stated dream, because the evidence neither specifies what the One is no longer and it certainly doesn't mention "Aes Sedai" or "able to channel". Even if you completely disregard my interpretation of the Dream and insert your own(please feel free to), Mat's role as key to finding the bowl is quite incontrovertible. Especially vis a vis Setalle.

No one has refuted the fact that Mat is instrumental. But he wasn't the key -- finding Setalle was the key. She is the one who leads them to the Kin, who know of the Bowl's location.

 

And your "play on words" doesn't work.

 

Seriously, why is Setalle the one?

The theory concerning Setalle is deadly serious, I assure you.

Which is honestly surprising as there is little factual evidence to support her. The criticisms applied to Mat's case can be argued but the same criticisms overwhelm Setalle's.

Everything supports Setalle. She is the one who is no longer, she is the one person who could lead them to the Kin, who knew the location where the Bowl was. Mat doesn't.

 

His one mind is cluttered by the memories of numerous other men. Other people's memories that fill him where his own memories should have been. He often refers to them to inform his conscious decisions and actions.

And I could refer to, say, my mathematics teacher to make an informed decision on a math test.  Technically my memories are based on his teachings, so in a way I'm using his knowledge.  It doesn't mean I am multiple people.

 

He remains one body, one soul, one mind.  The extra memories are just like receiving a transfusion of someone else's blood.  It doesn't make you multiple people.

Those would be your memories of your mathematics teacher and your experiences with him and the knowledge filtered and absorbed through your personality. How much you learned from him would depend on how good you are at math.

And Mat's memories act in the exact same way. That's why he cannot tell the difference from them and his own without effort.

 

The extra memories would be like having your mathematics teacher inside you, not as an active entity no, but you'd know his experiences as him, based on what he learned as a student from his math teacher, the work he put in to gain his teaching position, his years of work experience teaching students(including you), etc.

You would have his experiences of doing all that, but it would feel as if you did them.

 

They act as Mat's own memories. Not as separate entities.

 

Their influences even go to the extent of making him act like different men without his conscious knowledge.

They do not.  They give him different accents and experiences, but he still acts like Mat. 

 

As far as this theory of acting like different men goes, how would you define someone who is drugged and doesn't act like themselves?  Are they suddenly multiple people?

Actually when someone is intoxicated, they tend to be more unrestrained versions of themselves. If they imitate someone else it would be their own interpretation of what that someone is like. (You might not agree that I do a decent impersonation of Jack Nicholson.)

 

If those OM give him anything more, whether its accents, combat skills, battle strategy and it shows through his actions then he is acting as both Mat and those other men.

No, he isn't. Never does he think that he acts differently than how he normally would.

 

No, I'm saying a person's actions define them. And Mat's actions are routinely based on what these Other Men within him have done.

Poetic, but false.  Mat's actions are based on Mat's personality.  He uses the experience from those memories to influence his judgement, but ultimately the decision is his.  It's the same as reading Coumadrin's book and taking its advice into account.

Those experiences aren't the same as knowledge gained through reading. You and I can read the same passage or receive the same advice and come to varied conclusions based on how we think. Reading Comadrin isn't the same as fighting him in battle. With the memories as a part of him, he has lived through those experiences as them. The Other Memories give Mat a first person awareness of being them in similar situations and that's not the same as learning or being informed. Mat is often unable to distinguish between whether something has occurred in his past or of those other men.

Which prove that the memories are filtered through him, not him through them. Mat doesn't act as the other men in his memories would. He acts as HE would, with their experiences serving in place of his own.

 

I apologize if I can't express myself clearer than this but I do want to try if anyone is willing to listen. This isn't much of a pet theory as a discovery. I hadn't developed this beyond the core idea before I began discussing it here. So I apologize for the protracted arguments that have resulted. If anything, I'd say this discussion has entirely shaped my position so even if it stays with me it's been worth it and I am grateful to those who've taken part. Thanks.

You're welcome, for what it's worth.

[Mr Ares]

You haven't shot Mat down on the 'finding' issue either.

Mat wasn't found. Setalle was.

 

I wouldn't say he is the only personality.

You should. He is.

 

I thought Birgitte's statement was a fine example of Mat acting as other men.

It isn't. It is an example of him sounding like other men. Which is not relevant. No matter how many people he sounds like, he is still just one man.

 

No it's not, all you've learned is the location.

In other words, found it. (here). Stop splitting hairs.

 

Not sure what you meant by a VC, a VCR?

No, a VC.

It's not a question of ownership but identity. Those memories and experiences are not him

Well, ownership is part of it, and he does own them. As for identity, he identifies them as his own.

 

One Mat would have lived his own life. The no-longer-one Mat has practically lived and died as other men. It is entirely relevant.

It is not in the slightest bit relevant. A hypothetical Mat with no arms would have lived a different life to the mat we have, as would a hypothetical gay Mat (who would spend much less time chatting up serving girls). Mat is still one man, albeit a different man to any other possible Mat.

 

That makes her the 'key'(I prefer to say link) to the Kin, nothing more.

Well, the Kin led the way to the Bowl. So in finding the Kin, they found the Bowl. So she was the key to finding it. They found her, so they found it.

Mat led to Setalle in the first place.

So Mat found Setalle? According to you, "they didn't find Setalle, she found them so the wording of the dream doesn't apply to her." So you just contradicted yourself. Mat, as one of the searchers, found Setalle, who led to the Kin and then the Bowl. So finding Setalle was the key. Mat was doing the searching, not being searched for. She was found by him, he wasn't found by anyone.

And Mat's involvement was crucial to the actual finding of the bowl.

No. The Kin told them where to find the Bowl, and led them there. They found the Bowl as a result of the Kin, and would have done so without Mat.

 

That personality is acting as those other men would based on their own experiences.

It is acting as Mat would, based on those experiences. And it is still only one personality. However you slice it, Mat is only one man, so your interpretation of "one who is no longer one" cannot fit him.

 

Actually canon (Elayne & Birgitte) said so.

No, they didn't.

 

Which is honestly surprising as there is little factual evidence to support her.

As opposed to none to support Mat.

 

The extra memories would be like having your mathematics teacher inside you

And as a part of you, not as a separate entity. So you would still be one person, albeit one rather unusual person.

 

If those OM give him anything more, whether its accents, combat skills, battle strategy and it shows through his actions then he is acting as both Mat and those other men.

No, he is acting as Mat. Just Mat-with-battle-skills-etc. as opposed to Mat-without-battle-skills-etc.

 

Mat is often unable to distinguish between whether something has occurred in his past or of those other men.

Exactly. One man, indivisible.

 

This isn't much of a pet theory as a discovery.

No, it is a pet theory. For it to be a discovery, there does actually have to be something there. You have a much disputed interpretation of certain facts.

[Mandragoran]

Mat found Setalle.

Mat wasn't found. Setalle was.

No one has refuted the fact that Mat is instrumental. But he wasn't the key -- finding Setalle was the key. She is the one who leads them to the Kin, who know of the Bowl's location.

That makes her the 'key'(I prefer to say link) to the Kin, nothing more.

Well, the Kin led the way to the Bowl. So in finding the Kin, they found the Bowl. So she was the key to finding it. They found her, so they found it.

Mat led to Setalle in the first place.

So Mat found Setalle? According to you, "they didn't find Setalle, she found them so the wording of the dream doesn't apply to her." So you just contradicted yourself. Mat, as one of the searchers, found Setalle, who led to the Kin and then the Bowl. So finding Setalle was the key. Mat was doing the searching, not being searched for. She was found by him, he wasn't found by anyone.

No. The Kin told them where to find the Bowl, and led them there. They found the Bowl as a result of the Kin, and would have done so without Mat.

Everything supports Setalle. She is the one who is no longer, she is the one person who could lead them to the Kin, who knew the location where the Bowl was. Mat doesn't.

A dozen people would have found Setalle in the course of that day's business when Mat arrived at the Wandering Woman, because she was the innkeeper. Mat wasn't involved in the search for the bowl at that point of time. Neither was he any longer in the same party as those who did know of the bowl and were looking for it. As dholm pointed out: "the key was finding the one who is no longer." Nobody was even looking for the One at that point. Aviendha knew of the dream and later suggested using Mat as the person to get them the bowl. That's when Nynaeve and Elayne had to find Mat in the Wandering Woman to make him part of the search and get him to move into the Palace with them. The process of looking for, asking for directions & finding Mat resulted in Setalle finding them; which makes finding Mat the key. It happened because of Mat, right outside his door and Setalle took them to the Kin out of concern for Mat, her "only reason" as she puts it.

 

She led them to the Kin but the bowl's location was discovered and revealed first by Mat which goes further towards fulfilling the dream. Through Elayne, we see Mat credited as "root cause", "sure way" and "entirely" responsible for that success. As far as we know, the Kin never got around to revealing the location of the storeroom; Reanne was about to but she didn't. She isn't even sure the bowl is in the storeroom, having no knowledge of it. Once the location became known, they all travel to the storeroom together including Mat who had already been there. At the storeroom, Mat wasn't just instrumental, he was critical in getting the bowl by being the only one able to defeat the gholam- giving final resolution to the dream prediction which mentions the snares and pitfalls around the bowl. 

 

The dream wording does not support Setalle. She is not "the one who is no longer" because the dream does not mention what she is no longer. The vagueness of the wording is deliberate and imo a clue to the play on the word "one", which Mat is no longer as a result of those Other Men's memories within him.

 

knowing the location is not the same as finding the bowl.

...Yes, it is.

No it's not, all you've learned is the location. You have not found the bowl. (here)

You're splitting hairs.

No it's not, all you've learned is the location.

In other words, found it. (here). Stop splitting hairs.

Locating a store on a map is not the same as finding the item you want in that store.

 

find:

transitive verb 1 a : to come upon often accidentally : encounter b : to meet with (a particular reception) <hoped to find favor>

2 a : to come upon by searching or effort <must find a suitable person for the job> b : to discover by study or experiment <find an answer> c : to obtain by effort or management <find the time to study> d : attain, reach <the bullet found its mark>

 

If that was splitting hairs then neither of you would have taken up the finding issue vis a vis the one. To find is to "come upon" and clearly the bowl was not found at the time in question. Mat had actually stood outside the storeroom before Elayne and the Aes Sedai got to the Kin. Surely that would count as finding the bowl by your definitions.

"One sentence, you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect."

Birgitte was commenting on Mat's accent. She does not mean he was literally an Eharoni High Prince and a First Lord of Manetheren. She means that his accent was switching while he was talking, because he unconsiouscly learned the words from 2 different memories.

She was commenting on his accent, idiom & language. He was speaking the Old Tongue, Birgitte questions him on it right before. Mat doesn't just learn from those memories. He becomes the men in those memories. That's why he speaks as them in a language other than his own without knowing he's doing it. Birgitte identifies the other men in him by the shifting accent/dialect.

 

Mat is the dominant personality in that man

By virtue of being the only personality in that man. He is one man. One man with a few memories from other men is still just one man. But, if you can find an example of Mat being referred to in the plural, you may just have a point. You currently don't. Mat is one man.

I wouldn't say he is the only personality. The others do exist albeit passively in their memories. When Mat experiences those memories, he does so as those men, experiencing their thoughts and living out their actions.

 

I thought Birgitte's statement was a fine example of Mat acting as other men. "One sentence, you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect."

I feel pretty certain RJ has said Mat has only one soul and only one personality.

 

They are memories, and they do not change Mat in any way other than how memories do. All of the memories are filtered through his personality. The accents is just that: Accent. It pertains to how he learned the Old Tongue. It certainly doesn't mean someone else is speaking through him; for one thing, he knows exactly what it is he is saying (even if he doesn't know in what language he does so).

The memories in Mat represent the men they come from, with their own thoughts and personalities. And Mat becomes the men whose memories he relives. Like with the OM of a lord dancing with an atha'an miere emissary, he refers to himself as the Lord - not Mat - with the Lord's thoughts & desires.

He did not care how powerful she was; that was for the king to worry over, not a middling lord.

 

Again, I never said they were speaking through him, I said he was speaking as them. That's why he was unknowingly speaking another language, not just in another accent. Any acquired ancient language filtered through his personality should also reflect his own Two Rivers accent or at the very least, a modern accent but it doesn't because he is also those men. Being no longer one is the reason he doesn't know what language he is speaking in the first place.

 

Except you can't count those memories and experiences as Mat's.

Well, they were given to him. I'd say that makes them his, even if he didn't live them. If I bought a VC, then it is mine. I own it. Even if it was never awarded to me.

Not sure what you meant by a VC, a VCR? Anyway that's a highly flawed comparison because memories are an integral part of what makes a person them. It's not a question of ownership but identity. Those memories and experiences are not him, or rather at least they're not supposed to be. They come from other men.

Yet they are now an integral part of him, not of other men. Everything that comes from those memories are filtered through Mat's personality; they do not impart him with a personality of their own. When Mat isn't aware of the memories not being his, he thinks of them as having lived them himself. They work just as any experience you have had works. The fact that they once belonged to other men doesn't change that.

So if he owns those memories and they are now an integral part of him, with the experiences in them the same as if they were his own- does that mean Mat Cauthon was ever taller than Rand al'Thor?

In every other land he had been in, he was taller than most men if not always by much. He could remember being tall. Taller than Rand, when he rode against Artur Hawkwing. And a hand shorter than he was now when he fought beside Maecine against the Algari.

 

Mat was never taller than Rand. Not as himself. Mat Cauthon never rode against Artur Hawkwing. So you're wrong. Being foreign memories changes everything because in them you're not you anymore. Those experiences don't represent you the way yours do. The original Mat Cauthon is not those other men and they are not him. Their experiences and characteristics are not natively his. If Mat thinks he is those other men or those other men are himself - and he does, it means he is no longer one.

 

His one mind is cluttered by the memories of numerous other men.

So what? He is still one man, with one personality, and one soul.

That personality is acting as those other men would based on their own experiences. In those experiences, he is them and his real world actions are often a blend of Mat and them.

No. His actions are completely Mat's. If they weren't, he'd complain about doing stuff he didn't intend to do. The memories are filtered through Mat -- Mat acts on them, but it is HIS choice and HIS interpretation of them.

No, he isn't. Never does he think that he acts differently than how he normally would.

Speaking out in another language without intending to counts among his actions and usually comes as a shock or bother to him. And it occurs with great regularity. When Birgitte pointed out he was speaking the old tongue, he feels the hair on his neck try to stand.

 

The extra memories would be like having your mathematics teacher inside you, not as an active entity no, but you'd know his experiences as him, based on what he learned as a student from his math teacher, the work he put in to gain his teaching position, his years of work experience teaching students(including you), etc.

You would have his experiences of doing all that, but it would feel as if you did them.

 

They act as Mat's own memories. Not as separate entities.

But he didn't do them so they aren't his experiences. Acquiring them doesn't make them his because Mat Cauthon never did any of that.

 

He remembered counseling Buiryn not to accept the offer, being told in return that the smallest chance was better than none. Aedomon, glossy black beard hanging below the steel mesh that veiled his face, drew his spearmen back, waited until they were strung out and nearly to the ford before the hidden archers rose and the cavalry charged in. As for turning back to Safer. ... Mat did not think so. His last memory at the ford was trying to keep his feet, waist-deep in the river with three arrows in him, but there was something later, a fragment. Seeing Aedomon, gray-bearded now, go down in a sharp fight in a forest, toppling from his rearing horse, the spear in his back put there by an unarmored, beardless boy. This was worse than the holes had been.

 

Mat Cauthon never lived hundreds of years ago, never met those people, and didn't fight those battles. Thinking he did do what those other men did makes him no longer one, but rather a union of them and him.

 

It's not a question of ownership but identity. Those memories and experiences are not him

Well, ownership is part of it, and he does own them. As for identity, he identifies them as his own.

Ownership is not part of it when it comes to identity. And you're still thinking identity in terms of ownership. To identify is to become and in becoming those other men Mat is no longer just himself.

 

One Mat would have lived his own life. The no-longer-one Mat has practically lived and died as other men. It is entirely relevant.

It is not in the slightest bit relevant. A hypothetical Mat with no arms would have lived a different life to the mat we have, as would a hypothetical gay Mat (who would spend much less time chatting up serving girls). Mat is still one man, albeit a different man to any other possible Mat.

A Mat with no arms would have his own unique experiences from losing his arms to discovering how to live without them even tossing dice from his mouth. A gay Mat would in discovering his attraction to men, experience his own fears and conflicts and the courage it would require to embrace his homosexuality. These experiences would be his- they would have actually happened to him.

A Mat with someone else's memories remembers doing things and thinking in ways that do not correspond to the real Mat's life. Mat was never taller than Rand so he shouldn't remember being taller than him. A Mat who is many men with many experiences, including but not limited to changes in physical stature in the distant past, is no longer one.

 

That personality is acting as those other men would based on their own experiences.

It is acting as Mat would, based on those experiences. And it is still only one personality. However you slice it, Mat is only one man, so your interpretation of "one who is no longer one" cannot fit him.

He is not acting solely as Mat would, that's the point. He thinks, reasons and acts as a combined entity of Mat and those other men. Mat's is one active personality passively influenced by those of other men, except he can't tell the difference between him and them. So he is no longer one.

 

If those OM give him anything more, whether its accents, combat skills, battle strategy and it shows through his actions then he is acting as both Mat and those other men.

No, he is acting as Mat. Just Mat-with-battle-skills-etc. as opposed to Mat-without-battle-skills-etc.

The Mat with battle skills is the combination of Mat and those other military men.

 

Mat is often unable to distinguish between whether something has occurred in his past or of those other men.

Exactly. One man, indivisible.

Indivisible sort of like a collective of many men within one man, usually but not completely governed by a single dominant personality that is influenced by numerous passive personalities experienced through their individual memories. Ergo, no longer one.

 

 

[dholm]

This is getting pointless. There's no way Mat is not a single person. Your intepretation simply doesn't work.

[Hybrid]

1) One body, one soul, one mind.

 

He explained the idea more fully in the interview included in the online version of COT's Prologue:

 

Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?

 

RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

 

2) You contradict your own argument.  In fact, you practically make our point for us:

Mat Cauthon never lived hundreds of years ago, never met those people, and didn't fight those battles. Thinking he did do what those other men did makes him no longer one, but rather a union of them and him.

 

3) I'll try a different approach.  Let's assume for a second that you are right - that Mat is in fact many men.  I still think the theory is ridiculous, but I'm going to use a variation of a common mathematical approach.

 

• Let's assume that somehow your definition of man is true.
  
• Flashback to TDR.  Mat is being Healed of the dagger.  And what happens? Mat speaks like someone from the time of Manetheren.  The old blood, in other words, which we can see as early as TEOTW. Therefore Mat already had other men's memories in him.  In fact, he always did.
  
• Mat cannot be the one who is no longer, then, because he was always many men, by the old blood manifesting itself in him.  He always had other people's memories in him.
  
• Therefore, the prophecy does not apply to Mat.  QED.
  

 

[EramofAmandous]

I second the motion for Setalle Anan and move to strike.

 

The lesser consensus stand I call for the Greater consensus.

[Mandragoran]

^ Nice :D

 

Would it make a difference if I moved this to a fresh thread?

 

1) One body, one soul, one mind.

 

He explained the idea more fully in the interview included in the online version of COT's Prologue:

 

Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?

 

RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

I'm aware of that quote. It doesn't contradict what I said.

 

2) You contradict your own argument.  In fact, you practically make our point for us:

Mat Cauthon never lived hundreds of years ago, never met those people, and didn't fight those battles. Thinking he did do what those other men did makes him no longer one, but rather a union of them and him.

Not really a contradiction. A diverse group of people can form a union. Doesn't mean plurality doesn't apply to them.

 

3) I'll try a different approach.  Let's assume for a second that you are right - that Mat is in fact many men.  I still think the theory is ridiculous, but I'm going to use a variation of a common mathematical approach.

 

• Let's assume that somehow your definition of man is true.
  
• Flashback to TDR.  Mat is being Healed of the dagger.  And what happens? Mat speaks like someone from the time of Manetheren.  The old blood, in other words, which we can see as early as TEOTW. Therefore Mat already had other men's memories in him.  In fact, he always did.
  
• Mat cannot be the one who is no longer, then, because he was always many men, by the old blood manifesting itself in him.  He always had other people's memories in him.
  
• Therefore, the prophecy does not apply to Mat.  QED.
  

I was wondering when somebody would make the Old Blood argument. Because it's what Mat uses to allay Birgitte's suspicions about unknowingly speaking in the Old Tongue. To which Birgitte laughs at him, trying not to double over with tears in her eyes. In her response she tells him that some people speak only a few words, a phrase or two because of the Old Blood, usually without understanding what they say. That's right before she nails him on the specific accents and dialects he's using to prove that's not the case with him.

 

 

[EramofAmandous]

I think that Setalle Anan is the one that they were talking about. But at the same time I kinda agree that Mat cannot really be considered a singular entity. Our actions and who we are is based on our experiences and the memory of those experiences. Mat has the memory and experiences of those other men. Do they talk to him, no. Do they supply him with information he needs to say alive and help fight in the last battle, yes.

 

But the key was Setalle, yet without Mat they could have looked and looked forever.

[Hybrid]

1) One body, one soul, one mind.

 

He explained the idea more fully in the interview included in the online version of COT's Prologue:

 

Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?

 

RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

I'm aware of that quote. It doesn't contradict what I said.

Except that RJ thinks of Mat as a single human male.

 

3) I'll try a different approach.  Let's assume for a second that you are right - that Mat is in fact many men.  I still think the theory is ridiculous, but I'm going to use a variation of a common mathematical approach.

 

• Let's assume that somehow your definition of man is true.
  
• Flashback to TDR.  Mat is being Healed of the dagger.  And what happens? Mat speaks like someone from the time of Manetheren.  The old blood, in other words, which we can see as early as TEOTW. Therefore Mat already had other men's memories in him.  In fact, he always did.
  
• Mat cannot be the one who is no longer, then, because he was always many men, by the old blood manifesting itself in him.  He always had other people's memories in him.
  
• Therefore, the prophecy does not apply to Mat.  QED.
  

I was wondering when somebody would make the Old Blood argument. Because it's what Mat uses to allay Birgitte's suspicions about unknowingly speaking in the Old Tongue. To which Birgitte laughs at him, trying not to double over with tears in her eyes. In her response she tells him that some people speak only a few words, a phrase or two because of the Old Blood, usually without understanding what they say. That's right before she nails him on the specific accents and dialects he's using to prove that's not the case with him.

You are missing the point.  Birgitte is wrong, because Mat has spoken far more than a few words in the Old Blood.  In fact, regardless of whether or not he understood what he was saying, the Old Blood clearly gives him some memories.  He recalls a battle cry from the days of Manetheren in TEOTW.  And look back at TDR, where he was not acting like Mat at all, but someone in a completely different set of circumstances.

[EramofAmandous]

Can we all settle on the fact that Mat is a bad-ass?

[Hybrid]

Can we all settle on the fact that Mat is a bad-ass?

Yes.

 

Can we all settle on the theory that Mat are badasses?

 

No.

[Raezold]

This is THE most futile discussion I've read so far.

To stay with the Wheel of Time..;

Mandragoran? Mother's milk in a cup! You're such a woolhead ;D

 

Setalle Anan is the one. Stop claiming it's Mat. Please, I beg you :'(

 

Oh, and I'd like to see Setalle Healed. She'd be one of the few Aes Sedai whom wouldn't irritate me I think.

[a5m]

Would it make a difference if I moved this to a fresh thread?

 

No. A fresh thread would not make a difference. You would still have no support for your opinion.

[EramofAmandous]

Ouch, burn!

[Mandragoran]

^ Hey! You agreed with me on Mat being no longer one darn it! :D

 

1) One body, one soul, one mind.

 

He explained the idea more fully in the interview included in the online version of COT's Prologue:

 

Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?

 

RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

I'm aware of that quote. It doesn't contradict what I said.

Except that RJ thinks of Mat as a single human male.

And I've used similar terms to describe Mat as a dominant personality among other passive ones, many men within one man. Still implies plurality though, as any union would. There are badasses in Mat.

 

3) I'll try a different approach.  Let's assume for a second that you are right - that Mat is in fact many men.  I still think the theory is ridiculous, but I'm going to use a variation of a common mathematical approach.

 

• Let's assume that somehow your definition of man is true.
  
• Flashback to TDR.  Mat is being Healed of the dagger.  And what happens? Mat speaks like someone from the time of Manetheren.  The old blood, in other words, which we can see as early as TEOTW. Therefore Mat already had other men's memories in him.  In fact, he always did.
  
• Mat cannot be the one who is no longer, then, because he was always many men, by the old blood manifesting itself in him.  He always had other people's memories in him.
  
• Therefore, the prophecy does not apply to Mat.  QED.
  

I was wondering when somebody would make the Old Blood argument. Because it's what Mat uses to allay Birgitte's suspicions about unknowingly speaking in the Old Tongue. To which Birgitte laughs at him, trying not to double over with tears in her eyes. In her response she tells him that some people speak only a few words, a phrase or two because of the Old Blood, usually without understanding what they say. That's right before she nails him on the specific accents and dialects he's using to prove that's not the case with him.

You are missing the point.  Birgitte is wrong, because Mat has spoken far more than a few words in the Old Blood.  In fact, regardless of whether or not he understood what he was saying, the Old Blood clearly gives him some memories.  He recalls a battle cry from the days of Manetheren in TEOTW.  And look back at TDR, where he was not acting like Mat at all, but someone in a completely different set of circumstances.

The Old Blood doesn't stay with you, it goes away and you forget whatever it was you were saying, not like with memory. Mat was still Mat when he left the Two Rivers. The Old Blood flowed very strongly in Mat and it seems to manifest at times of stress, like in the heat of battle. But the healing of Mat in TDR would count as extreme stress, physical and mental with the toll the power was taking on his life. More importantly, the dagger was fighting the power and given its effect on behavior, that enormous struggle caused the old blood to not only resurface in great strength but also take hold in his mind. Any changes in Mat in TDR would have to be ascribed to the healing and its conflict with the dagger.

 

That doesn't contradict Birgitte on the usual manifestations of the old blood. What she says is canon and hasn't been contradicted within canon. Rather it's reinforced in TEOTW. When Thom corrects Mat and Rand who say it's some dead person speaking from Mat, he calls that dangerous and stupid talk. Citing Moiraine, he reiterates it's the old blood, "not a dead man". Having the Old Blood alone doesn't count as being no longer one. Egwene too carries the old blood as do Bode Cauthon and many of the Two Rivers folk. Egwene thought she momentarily recognized what Mat was saying at the battle before Shadar Logoth but couldn't remember it afterwards.