Setalle Anan

[dholm]

“Reanne,” she said gently, “do you think perhaps you might happen to recall where the Bowl of the Winds is, now?”

 

Reanne blushed a sunset. “We’ve never touched them, Elayne Sedai. I don’t know why they were gathered. I’ve never heard of this Bowl of the Winds, but there is a storeroom such as you describe over—”

 

They are then rudely interrupted by Mat. Afterwards, the Kin -- not Mat -- leads them straight to the storeroom.

 

Had Mat not stepped a foot outside Setalle Anan's inn, they would still have found the storeroom as soon as Elayne convinced the Aes Sedai in the Tarasin Palace that she also was Aes Sedai and marched them to the Kin. Mat was in no way integral to finding the Bowl. (Though he was integral in securing it.)

 

You can keep claiming the sentence applies to Mat as much as you want, but that doesn't make it true. It says someone who is no longer something. Your interpretation would mean it could apply to anyone. "One who is no longer five years old." It makes MORE sense than your claim. What exactly is it he no longer is?

 

No, the person has stopped being something, and that something was integral to their identity. Setalle Anan. Reanne Corly doesn't fit; she can still channel and while she's not an initiate, she's a member of the Kin, and the function is more or less the same. Both are channeler organisations. In other words, she replaced what she lost with something else. Setalle Anan didn't.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Also, when you said that a general facing mat is facing not one great soldier but many. Mat is just himself. There are no dead generals speaking to him in his mind. He has the memories of several generals yes, but that is from the Finns and it is not dead men speaking to him.

[Mandragoran]

They are then rudely interrupted by Mat. Afterwards, the Kin -- not Mat -- leads them straight to the storeroom.

 

Had Mat not stepped a foot outside Setalle Anan's inn, they would still have found the storeroom as soon as Elayne convinced the Aes Sedai in the Tarasin Palace that she also was Aes Sedai and marched them to the Kin. Mat was in no way integral to finding the Bowl. (Though he was integral in securing it.)

Would they have? Mat was the first to make the discovery for them. Might not matter much on the practical side of things since they all (Mat and the Kin -- not Setalle) went together to retrieve it but Mat being first further qualifies as fulfillment of the terms of the Dream.

 

Elayne repeatedly (and reluctantly) credits Mat with the whole thing. Even as Setalle is taking them to their meeting with the Kin, Elayne says if the Circle leads them to the bowl then they'd have to admit Mat was the "root cause". Later when they're turned out by the Kin and after they're attacked, she describes Mat as the only one, sure way to lead them to the bowl, even if the Circle do know where it is. When Mat interrupts the showdown with the Kin, he had discovered the location much earlier and made the trip from the Rahad to tell them about it. Again Elayne(describing this as one of the most difficult things she's ever done) thanks Mat saying it was entirely due to him that they found what they were looking for. Not to mention that it was Aviendha who related the dream to Rand and she was the one who suggested using Mat to find the Bowl in the first place.

 

And knowing where the bowl is, is not the same as finding it, in which case Setalle wasn't involved at all. You have to take the dream interpretation regarding the bowl in it's entirety and that includes securing it, which I'm glad you admit Mat was crucial to.

 

You can keep claiming the sentence applies to Mat as much as you want, but that doesn't make it true. It says someone who is no longer something. Your interpretation would mean it could apply to anyone. "One who is no longer five years old." It makes MORE sense than your claim. What exactly is it he no longer is?

My interpretation is rather strict: Someone who is no longer "one". In "the one who is no longer", the missing object of the sentence is the subject that's already present. I'm not adding anything that isn't there. Mat cannot be considered "one" anymore, see my response to Padraic.

 

Apart from my interpretation, the statement could also mean someone dead or not growing, without tacking anything on at the end of the sentence. Proponents of the Setalle (or Reanne) theory fall into a third category, and would have to add what they are supposed to be, the "five years old" would be the equivalent of adding "Aes Sedai".

 

No, the person has stopped being something, and that something was integral to their identity. Setalle Anan. Reanne Corly doesn't fit; she can still channel and while she's not an initiate, she's a member of the Kin, and the function is more or less the same. Both are channeler organisations. In other words, she replaced what she lost with something else. Setalle Anan didn't.

 

That's reaching a bit. The Dream doesn't mention being able to channel or anything. Reanne had actual knowledge of the bowl. Setalle didn't so she can't be described as the key to this in any way. Setalle was barely involved in the discovery of it's location and not at all in the finding. Reanne comes closest after Mat.

 

Also, when you said that a general facing mat is facing not one great soldier but many. Mat is just himself. There are no dead generals speaking to him in his mind. He has the memories of several generals yes, but that is from the Finns and it is not dead men speaking to him.

While those memories are not other active personalities you can't look at Mat as a singular individual when those other experiences are a part of him and he acts on it. Look at how Brigitte describes the first time he recognizes her, when Mat's inadvertently speaking the Old Tongue again, "one sentence, you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect."

 

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

So his accent changes. So what? That doesn't mean that is those people speaking through him. He was inadvertantly speaking the Old Tongue, and since he knows it from having those memories, he spoke as he remembered speaking it.

[Mandragoran]

So his accent changes. So what? That doesn't mean that is those people speaking through him. He was inadvertantly speaking the Old Tongue, and since he knows it from having those memories, he spoke as he remembered speaking it.

Yes but they're not his memories. They belong to others. I never said they were speaking through him, rather that he spoke and acted as them - as many men. The point is, Mat cannot be considered in the singular.

 

 

[dholm]

Your interpretation is in no way supported by the text. Mat is a single person. The memories he has gained fill holes in his memory. He cannot even separate them from his own without considerable effort.

[Mandragoran]

Your interpretation is in no way supported by the text. Mat is a single person. The memories he has gained fill holes in his memory. He cannot even separate them from his own without considerable effort.

When dealing with a situation that Mat alone may not handle, he does what other men have done in their lifetimes and that's perfectly supported by the text. I don't agree on his being unable to separate those memories from his own. He seems to identify them alright although there are times he does not seem aware when he does something based on those memories. Not being able to make a distinction as you suggest would only prove my point further, that he is acting as other men would. Mat differs from the norm of a single individual when he's got other men's memories and experiences to rely and act on. You don't have to imagine voices and alternate personalities to accept that basic fact.

 

 

[dholm]

He interprets what the memories tell him on his own.

 

He says specifically that he can only separate them from his own memories with an effort. I cannot remember the exact book, though.

 

Your interpretation is simply put not valid. Mat is one individual, regardless of what memories he has received.

[Mandragoran]

We don't disagree on the essence. Mat hosts the memories of many men, controlled and interpreted by his own (dominant) personality. But as his actions are influenced by those other memories, they are not the actions of say... a hypothetical Mat devoid of those memories who'd have to rely on his own life experiences like every other man. The person isn't exactly the same anymore, nor can he be called a singular individual based on those other men's influences. Birgitte's comments are most telling in this regard.

 

 

[dholm]

He IS a singular individual. He has exceptional experience, but that doesn't cause him to have multiple personalities. Memories of other men do not make him a different person any more than any new experiences he encounters.

[Mandragoran]

He IS a singular individual. He has exceptional experience, but that doesn't cause him to have multiple personalities. Memories of other men do not make him a different person any more than any new experiences he encounters.

His own experiences would be based on his own persona. Other men's experiences would be based on their personalities and are an entirely different matter. It doesn't come to the same thing when he is in fact acting like them. When he speaks like a Lord or a Prince, those are certainly not Mat Cauthon.

 

 

[dholm]

Yes, it is. It is him speaking, not a long-dead Lord or Prince. The memories do not change him in and of themselves. The experiences he has gained from them have, a little. But not the memories themselves. When he speaks with an accent of a long-dead country, it is HIM speaking.

 

There's only one person. Mat. He has a ton of memories, most of which aren't his own. But they are a part of him, now.

[Mandragoran]

Yes, it is. It is him speaking, not a long-dead Lord or Prince. The memories do not change him in and of themselves. The experiences he has gained from them have, a little. But not the memories themselves. When he speaks with an accent of a long-dead country, it is HIM speaking.

 

There's only one person. Mat. He has a ton of memories, most of which aren't his own. But they are a part of him, now.

The old Mat Cauthon with his own memories wouldn't have anything to do with a Lord, even the current one claims he wouldn't and so speaking as a Lord or Prince should never have happened. Yet it does. So yes, the memories clearly have changed him. How does one make the lives, actions, decisions and thoughts, of a multitude a part of themselves without changing? Other men's memories influence his actions and that doesn't apply to the norm of a singular individual.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Setalle Anan is the one that is no longer and was the key to finding the bowl of the winds. As Rand stated when the Wise Ones told him that dream, "the one that is no longer what?" It seems pretty clear to me that the what is Aes Sedai.

I think it's Mat. The interpretation being, "the one who is no longer... one". Mat is one man...

I think you just shot your own argument in the foot. Mat is one. Also, they hardly need to find Mat, but the key lies in finding the one who is no longer. They did find Setalle, and she was the key as she led them to the Kin who led them to the Bowl. But they didn't find Mat, as he came there with them. They knew where he was. And Mat is most definitely a singular individual, in more ways than one.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Mandragoran. For the last time, the quote is not "one who is no longer... one" it is 'one who is no longer'. Rand says later "One who is no longer what?" or something like that, but the dream/foretelling/vision, whatever it was, clearly states "the one who is no longer".

[Phariah]

LoC page 436

"the key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer"

i agree that it is Setalle , she is the AS that burnt herself out experimenting with ter'angreal ( her interest in Mat's necklace was more than just reg AS curiousity imo in WH or KoD? when he let her see it )

 

i mean Mat is with his army when Avi tells Rand about that dream , they don't have to find him

 

and Mat was important to gaining access to her, she liked the young man  ;D

thats the only real reason she did what she did w/ Elayne and Ny. which in turn led them to the Kin, even Elayne notes this

[Deadsy]

I can't believe something so obvious is even an argument. It's like asking which ajah Elaida was raised from.

[Mandragoran]

I think you just shot your own argument in the foot. Mat is one. Also, they hardly need to find Mat, but the key lies in finding the one who is no longer. They did find Setalle, and she was the key as she led them to the Kin who led them to the Bowl. But they didn't find Mat, as he came there with them. They knew where he was. And Mat is most definitely a singular individual, in more ways than one.

I've repeatedly maintained we are not talking about other active personalities, that we can still apply plurality to Mat based on those other men's memories and his actions dependent on them. A singular individual doesn't have a first person awareness of what other men have done in their lifetimes through foreign memories intermingled with his own. A singular individual would be someone like say- Juilin who doesn't have memories from other men to base his actions on.

 

The evidence on Mat being the key to obtaining the bowl is quite overwhelming. I've addressed this earlier.

 

LoC page 436

"the key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer"

i agree that it is Setalle , she is the AS that burnt herself out experimenting with ter'angreal ( her interest in Mat's necklace was more than just reg AS curiousity imo in WH or KoD? when he let her see it )

 

i mean Mat is with his army when Avi tells Rand about that dream , they don't have to find him

 

and Mat was important to gaining access to her, she liked the young man  ;D

thats the only real reason she did what she did w/ Elayne and Ny. which in turn led them to the Kin, even Elayne notes this

Mat isn't with them though, nor with Aviendha and the Wise Ones where the dream was first related. He was somewhere on the road to Tear. And the Wise Ones didn't know it was Mat, they probably saw defining characteristics that were not very clear. They certainly don't know about Mat's other memories. But perhaps they had their suspicions as it was Aviendha who eventually suggests using Mat to find the bowl, which is when Elayne and Nynaeve finally begin to make headway.

 

It was Mat's ta'veren-ness that led to Setalle in the first place. Setalle was simply one of the threads Mat being Ta'veren twisted around himself without knowing he'd need it later. Elayne acknowledges Mat as the root cause even while she was with Setalle, and credits Mat with locating and finding the bowl afterwards too, which he does. I've covered this part already.

 

Mandragoran. For the last time, the quote is not "one who is no longer... one" it is 'one who is no longer'. Rand says later "One who is no longer what?" or something like that, but the dream/foretelling/vision, whatever it was, clearly states "the one who is no longer".

I'll repeat: in "the one who is no longer"- there's a missing object(as Rand points out) in the sentence that imo is an indirect reference to the subject that's already present. It's a play on the word "one". Many props to Mr. Jordan for coming up with it.

 

 

[dholm]

Except he didn't. It doesn't work.

[a5m]

It was Mat's ta'veren-ness that led to Setalle in the first place. Setalle was simply one of the threads Mat being Ta'veren twisted around himself without knowing he'd need it later. Elayne acknowledges Mat as the root cause even while she was with Setalle, and credits Mat with locating and finding the bowl afterwards too, which he does. I've covered this part already.

 

Mat was certainly the one that helped find the "one that is no longer" as you state in your first sentence. But Mat is not the "one that is no longer", Setalle is. She is the key.

[Mandragoran]

It was Mat's ta'veren-ness that led to Setalle in the first place. Setalle was simply one of the threads Mat being Ta'veren twisted around himself without knowing he'd need it later. Elayne acknowledges Mat as the root cause even while she was with Setalle, and credits Mat with locating and finding the bowl afterwards too, which he does. I've covered this part already.

 

Mat was certainly the one that helped find the "one that is no longer" as you state in your first sentence. But Mat is not the "one that is no longer", Setalle is. She is the key.

How is Setalle the "one that is no longer"? What is she no longer? No longer Aes Sedai? No longer able to channel? The dream mentions none of that. It's deliberately been made vague, so either you assume there was no answer intended to this or that the answer is concealed within the wording.

 

The only other reason why people say it's Setalle is because she led them to the Kin. She didn't have knowledge of the bowl, nor of the store room so she was only a small part of the chain that led to discovering the right location. Mat stands at the beginning of that chain which you rightly acknowledge- he led to Setalle and because of this Elayne also acknowledges him as the "root cause" to discovering the bowl's location.

 

However Mat does far more than that. He is the first one among those looking to discover and reveal the location of the bowl having gone there well before Elayne and her Aes Sedai meet the Kin, which goes further in fulfilling the terms stated by the dreamwalkers of the One being the key. Again, Elayne grudgingly admits they owe the discovery "entirely" to him.

 

Of course, none of this is getting them the bowl because knowing the location is not the same as finding the bowl.

 

Look at the entire dream prediction:

Rain, coming from a bowl. There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer.

Setalle was nowhere involved in retrieving the bowl. The snares and pitfalls mentioned above also play a part when it comes to identifying the Key. The major threat they faced to prevent them getting their hands on it turned out to be the Gholam. Apart from Mat, nobody else whether channeler or soldier was equipped to deal with that.  Without Mat they would all be dead and the bowl lost.

 

So even if you work backwards by analyzing these events and all the other characters' places in them, Mat Cauthon proves to be the Key the Dream talks of.

 

 

[Dmitri]

So even if you work backwards by analyzing these events and all the other characters' places in them, Mat Cauthon proves to be the Key the Dream talks of.

Very, very interesting way of thinking...

 

The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer

Then how are they supposed to find Mat if he's already with them?

It simply ruins your theory, I'm sorry.  :-\

 

The key is Setalle Anan. Period.

 

[dholm]

Mat fails on multiple levels. You cannot apply "the one who is no longer" to him; I have explained why already. Your "word play" doesn't work. He doesn't need to be found, either -- he's with them. Finally, he isn't the one that helps them find it; the Kin are. They find the Kin through Setalle Anan. Mat does find it, but only by going through the Kin.

 

Elayne only says they owe the discovery to Mat to stay on good terms with Birgitte and Aviendha, and besides, his luck is what finds Setalle Anan in the first place. He isn't the key, however.

[Mr Ares]

that we can still apply plurality to Mat based on those other men's memories

No, we can't. Mat is one man, so it makes no sense at all to say he is no longer one.

 

The evidence on Mat being the key to obtaining the bowl is quite overwhelming.

But they didn't find Mat. The key to finding the Bowl lay in finding the one who is no longer, and as they didn't find Mat he cannot be the key. He did find Setalle, who is the key, as she led them to Reanne, and thus they found the Bowl.

 

There is, quite simply, no reasonable way to slice it so Mat is the one referred to.

 

Rain, coming from a bowl. There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer.

Setalle was nowhere involved in retrieving the bowl.

Which is completely irrelevant. The key to finding the Bowl, not retrieving it. And Setalle was the key as she led to the Kin, who led them to the Bowl. They found the Bowl because of Setalle. They found Setalle because of Mat, but they didn't find Mat, therefore it cannot be him. And if you want to go further back along the chain, you can put Rand above Mat, as he sent him to Salidar, and Egwene for sending the girls and Mat, and Nynaeve and Elayne for knowing to look for it in the first place. So even if Elayne sees Mat as the "root cause", doesn't mean he is, as you can go back a little further and say others were responsible for them going in the first place. But the key lay in finding, and they didn't find Mat. So it cannot be him. Nor is he no longer one, so we have no reason at all to accept your answer.

[Mandragoran]

The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer

Then how are they supposed to find Mat if he's already with them?

It simply ruins your theory, I'm sorry.  :-\

 

The key is Setalle Anan. Period.

 

 

The evidence on Mat being the key to obtaining the bowl is quite overwhelming.

But they didn't find Mat. The key to finding the Bowl lay in finding the one who is no longer, and as they didn't find Mat he cannot be the key. He did find Setalle, who is the key, as she led them to Reanne, and thus they found the Bowl.

 

There is, quite simply, no reasonable way to slice it so Mat is the one referred to.

 

Mat fails on multiple levels. You cannot apply "the one who is no longer" to him; I have explained why already. Your "word play" doesn't work. He doesn't need to be found, either -- he's with them. Finally, he isn't the one that helps them find it; the Kin are. They find the Kin through Setalle Anan. Mat does find it, but only by going through the Kin.

The finding issue has been mentioned before this. The Dream prediction comes from the Wise Ones to Aviendha and is revealed by Aviendha to Rand. Mat is somewhere on the road to Tear at that point of time and the Wise Ones could not say for sure who the Dream applied to or they would have. From the Dreamwalker perspective, the One would have to be found.

 

But since we are being particular about the wording then we have deal with the incident in detail. Because technically speaking, Mat isn't exactly with Elayne and Nynaeve since they split up. He's at the Wandering Woman and they go looking for him, asking directions to his room and everything, so they can apologize and join forces again. Also technically speaking, they don't find Setalle Anan, she finds them when she hears about them acting like Aes Sedai(from Caira, the girl from whom they were getting directions to Mat).

 

Elayne only says they owe the discovery to Mat to stay on good terms with Birgitte and Aviendha, and besides, his luck is what finds Setalle Anan in the first place. He isn't the key, however.

Being fair is all Aviendha and Birgitte expect of Elayne. And Elayne trying to be fair-minded at that point is the only reason she has anything complimentary to say about Mat at all. Elayne wouldn't describe crediting Mat "entirely" with discovering the location as the most difficult thing she ever did otherwise, given the things she's done. She is also trying to uphold her oaths as Aes Sedai as if she had held the rod so she can't say anything she doesn't truly believe. Given her reluctance, she'd have been glad of the excuse to ignore Birgitte's bond-felt but non-overt disapproval.

 

And neither Birgitte nor Aviendha were around for approval when she points out to Nynaeve that they'd have to acknowledge Mat as the "root cause" leading them to the bowl. They weren't around after their meeting with the Kin either when Elayne suggests Mat as the only sure way of finding the bowl even if the Kin did know where it was. And she wasn't trying to appease Birgitte or Aviendha with her heartfelt thanks for saving them all from the Gholam.

 

that we can still apply plurality to Mat based on those other men's memories

No, we can't. Mat is one man, so it makes no sense at all to say he is no longer one.

Mat is the dominant personality in that man, but with those other memories with him he is not alone and no longer counts as one. A Juilin would count as one, and so would a Thom but Mat is not the same with other men in him. A Juilin or a Thom would never unknowingly speak as Lords or Princes while being themselves.

 

Rain, coming from a bowl. There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer.

Setalle was nowhere involved in retrieving the bowl.

Which is completely irrelevant. The key to finding the Bowl, not retrieving it. And Setalle was the key as she led to the Kin, who led them to the Bowl. They found the Bowl because of Setalle. They found Setalle because of Mat, but they didn't find Mat, therefore it cannot be him. And if you want to go further back along the chain, you can put Rand above Mat, as he sent him to Salidar, and Egwene for sending the girls and Mat, and Nynaeve and Elayne for knowing to look for it in the first place. So even if Elayne sees Mat as the "root cause", doesn't mean he is, as you can go back a little further and say others were responsible for them going in the first place.

You missed what I said right before.

knowing the location is not the same as finding the bowl.

If knowing where the bowl was was all it took then either Nynaeve or Elayne would qualify as the one. They were actually there in the TAR storeroom of ter'angreal and saw where the storeroom was located. They should have had it, but didn't. The chain of events in the search for the bowl hits a kink once Mat breaks away from their party. They are unable to locate it anymore no matter how hard they try. Egwene can no longer help and she does try by asking the wise ones about using need again. Rand isn't even a factor. It's only once Mat gets involved again that everything begins to fall into place.

 

You can disagree with Elayne all you want but she was actually there. And that's not counting that the author isn't using her to beat us over the head with clues.