The He/She Creator/Dark One

[magnutz]

Hello folks!

 

I have been listening to a lot of the Pod Cast episodes lately (I just recently found them!) and was intrigued! Some people seem to want to put a gender on The Dark One and the Creator. If I remember correctly both powers are identified as gender neutral. The Dark One is NOT a woman nor is it a man. It simply is. Perhaps it will take one form or the other?! When facing Rand (if it will face Rand directly that is) it might take on the form of a woman since Rand is unable to kill women...

 

I also remember Moiraine saying, when Rand or one of the other Two Rivers boys claims to have seen The Dark One's dead body, that the Dark One would not come in the shape of a man, nor would IT die as one.

 

What do you guys think?! ;)

[OptimusPrime]

If I remember correctly both powers are identified as gender neutral.

 

When was that specified?

 

The reason many readers think of the Dark One as male is because the Forsaken call it "Great Lord," and as all know, Lord is a mans title.

 

Moiraine believes she is right, but isnt necessarily. How would she know what the Dark One will appear as? The Dark One may or may not appear as a man, but even if it doesnt he could still be male. The Dark One may appear as a man or woman with the intention of not revealing its true form, so whatever happens we will never know. And if the Dark One ever did reveal its true form most readers would start debating whether or not it was misleading.

[Mr Ares]

The Dark One is NOT a woman nor is it a man.

True, but male pronons are used throught to refer to Him.

Perhaps it will take one form or the other?

Why should He take the form of either? He is a god, after all.

 

When was that specified?

Pretty sure it's mentioned in the BWB.

 

The reason many readers think of the Dark One as male is because the Forsaken call it "Great Lord," and as all know, Lord is a mans title.

Usually. Not exclusively.

[OptimusPrime]

Quote

The reason many readers think of the Dark One as male is because the Forsaken call it "Great Lord," and as all know, Lord is a mans title.

Usually. Not exclusively

 

Fair enough, I should have said usually. Still answers the question though; people hearing Great Lord usually expect it to be a man. Thats why most people put a gender on the Dark One.

[magnutz]

So, it is as it is in our world then, at least where Chistianity is concerned. God is male. I have no problems with the He/She concept but was and is a bit intrigued by it. ;) And, as a side note, the Pod Cast Show is quite nice!

 

One thing that also just occurred to me is this: There is no religion in Randland?! No gods other than The Creator and The Dark One. That is interesting. And also, there are no sports, aside from the bow & arrow contests and its like. What do you make of this? Are there different religions practiced in the various nations of Randland? Maybe R.J. never found it useful/interesting enough to incorporate it into the story. I don't miss any of these things but the thought came to me nonetheless.

[magnutz]

Quote

The reason many readers think of the Dark One as male is because the Forsaken call it "Great Lord," and as all know, Lord is a mans title.

Usually. Not exclusively

 

Fair enough, I should have said usually. Still answers the question though; people hearing Great Lord usually expect it to be a man. Thats why most people put a gender on the Dark One.

 

Mankind has always felt the need to categorize everything. Give the bloody thing a label so that I can put it in the right register.  ;) I agree with the idea of The Dark One being a God. A supreme power alongside The Creator.

[Theleos]

Although the Dark One and the Creator are generally believed to be male, I feel that they can not even be classified as having human form. When they say "The dark one could reach his hand out and touch the world" it is only an expression of the magnitude of his power.

 

I believe that when/if we see him and Rand face off he will either be a shadowed form vaguely representing that of a human, or not representing anything human, or he will take over somebody's body, possibly Moridin or Shadar Haran.

 

As for religion in WoT, the Pattern and the Wheel of Time are their religion. The Creator and the Dark One are their gods. The wheel and the Pattern are real just as the Creator and the Dark One are real. People are reincarnated and they can, at least to a degree, talk to their Gods (although the creator never actually responds). So why would the people of Randland believe in something abstract (and something that they would see no true proof of) when they have these other entities to pray to and to believe in that they do see proof of.

[magnutz]

Although the Dark One and the Creator are generally believed to be male, I feel that they can not even be classified as having human form. When they say "The dark one could reach his hand out and touch the world" it is only an expression of the magnitude of his power.

 

I believe that when/if we see him and Rand face off he will either be a shadowed form vaguely representing that of a human, or not representing anything human, or he will take over somebody's body, possibly Moridin or Shadar Haran.

 

As for religion in WoT, the Pattern and the Wheel of Time are their religion. The Creator and the Dark One are their gods. The wheel and the Pattern are real just as the Creator and the Dark One are real. People are reincarnated and they can, at least to a degree, talk to their Gods (although the creator never actually responds). So why would the people of Randland believe in something abstract (and something that they would see no true proof of) when they have these other entities to pray to and to believe in that they do see proof of.

 

Yes, I see now. It completely slipped my mind! The people of Randland are sort of into Buddhism. The wheel and whatnot. :)

 

I also believe as you do that the Dark One will not be a person when he/she/it faces The Light in the Last battle. Only if he/she/it takes possession of another person's body they will face a "human."

Off topic:

 

About facing the Dark One: Like in most stories the hard part is getting past the hordes of henchmen/henchwomen that are always standing between the doers of good and the doer of evil. When they get past all the Dreadlords, Forsaken and common Darkfriend rabble/riffraff the actual face off with The Dark One will probably be a small thing. Like a whimpering little Idol sitting on an altar. Hero walks up to the Idol and exchanges a few insults, threats and whatnot. Then continues to draw <insert weapon type here> and then SMASH - Case closed, time for beer and wenching. ;) I do think that this scenario might not apply here in WoT but, maybe it will?! I sort of like the idea of the All Powerful Dark Evil Dude/Dudette is really an old prune sitting in a rocking chair or a stuttering flame just waiting to be blown out. It is irony. ;)

[Cherise]

 

Don't the Seanchan kind of worship their Empress and all of "The Blood" like gods? Seanchan kind of reminds me of Rome, in that respect.

[magnutz]

 

Don't the Seanchan kind of worship their Empress and all of "The Blood" like gods? Seanchan kind of reminds me of Rome, in that respect.

 

It feels that way, so I agree! The lack of a "clergy" (sp?) is refreshing since so many other fantasy writers use holy men/priests. Eddings and Feist to mention two.

 

The Seanchan do worship their Empress and that might be what passes for religion there. The function is the same anyway. The Empress, may she live forever, is something to believe in, something that brings stability and purpose to the masses. The Empress, may she..., is feared because Her word is Law. The Empress, may ..., is also alof, mysterious and therefore something for the people to look up to and think/wonder about. Just as Religion can function as a source of stability and fear. Religion can lead people, so can (and does) the Empress. Oh well... ;)

 

Back to real life for a bit. We have just built a house and I have to work on the second floor. Sanding and painting... Good thing I discovered the Pod Cast! I listen to the show while I work. Great stuff!  ;)

[OptimusPrime]

Although the Dark One and the Creator are generally believed to be male, I feel that they can not even be classified as having human form.

 

Human isnt the only species that has different genders though, is it? There is nothing to say that the Creator and the Dark One are not gender-based.

[magnutz]

Although the Dark One and the Creator are generally believed to be male, I feel that they can not even be classified as having human form.

 

Human isnt the only species that has different genders though, is it? There is nothing to say that the Creator and the Dark One are not gender-based.

 

True, there is nothing to say that the Gods aren't gender based. It is, in my opinion, far fetched as the Gods are... entities. Abstracts without forms but still have forms?! :) Most storytellers have depicted Gods/Devils as bodyless "things" with very harsh deep and guttural voices. I really look forward to reading about this in the next 3 books. Hopefully we will get to "see" the Dark One in one form or another. ;)

[OptimusPrime]

I agree, if we dont see the Dark One himself-and that rules out any sort of possession of Moridin and Shaidar-then I will be dissapointed.

 

Regarding deities and entities, we could speculate for years on what they are exactly, but we will never ever know. Theres no way any human being will ever know better about God, entities, or any deity than any other, not on this side of the coffin anyway.

[magnutz]

Regarding deities and entities, we could speculate for years on what they are exactly, but we will never ever know. Theres no way any human being will ever know better about God, entities, or any deity than any other, not on this side of the coffin anyway.

 

One thought that I remember having read or heard of is that the God/s choose a form that the lesser can comprehend, relate to. I also remember one really neat idea (I believe it was in one of D Edding's novels) that you defeat a God by removing "his" worshippers. So, a theory: Every Forsaken that gets blown away weakens The Dark One and every darkfriend that "converts" back to The Light or dies does the same. Trollocs won't count as they are ruled by fear and not awe but Fades and more aware creatures could count. This theory sort of aligns with my previous post about the strength of the prime evil of many fantasy stories (and non-fantasy stories as well) being weak when all henchmen have been removed. :)

[Mr Ares]

I also remember one really neat idea (I believe it was in one of D Edding's novels) that you defeat a God by removing "his" worshippers.

I can think of a few fantasies that use the idea of gods being reliant on belief - American Gods, Discworld (most notably Small Gods), and Malazan Book of the Fallen, for example. That said, I don't really see it in WoT.