Mat's Luck and Channeling

[Alghar Khan]

Only if you're ignoring what came before the Dagger/Severing.... or if you live in Opposite-World.

I'm doing neither. I'm paraphrasing (too lazy to look it up again), he said (roughly) "Sure, there were times with Hurin and in Fal Dara when six or eight tosses went my way. But nothing like the luck I'm hving now.". Compare that to any normal guy with absolutely average luck. Not even "Mat in Emond's Field luck". He plays with Hurin during 10 separate days. Each day 60 tosses. The average guy should win 6 in a row, or more than that, 3 or 4 times during that period. What should we expect from Mat? I would say at least 5 times. We know Mat was lucky in Emond's Field. Lucky enough for people to know about it.

 

Mat's luck was higher in the period between Shadar Logoth and the complete Severing of the Dagger in the White Tower than it ever was before, and higher still after the Dagger was severed. How is that suppression?

It could be higher... But not by much, if Mat is to be trusted. No "jump" after picking up the Dagger. Meaning, it could be a slight increase that would have occured anyway.

 

So he lost heavily, a silver mark and four pence would be considered a lot of money to small-folk, at dice back in Emond's Field, no super-luck. (By the way, that's from the same paragraph where he thinks "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth")

You're trusting Mat's recollection after being Healed, right? He says that he was always lucky. But luck comes and goes in waves.

 

Move to Shienar during the Dagger-holding period (and before blowing the Horn, BTW).

The Great Hunt - Chpt 3.

"I seem to have luck with the dice. I can hardly touch them without winning."

That was way later than picking up the Dagger, so it's not proof of a link. He was always lucky. Seems like his luck was in on that particular occasion. Waves.

 

His luck is clearly higher during his possession of the Dagger than it was before that.

So please explain (using logic ;)) how that equals the Dagger suppressing his luck.

See what I've already written.

 

By the way, suppression/halting/scrambling are different possibilities. It could be any of the three, or none of them...

[Blackhoof]

Personally i think that your all wrong. It has been stated on a number of occasions, more than the occasional, "the luck started when i got the dagger" or "i've always been lucky", even mat has said, his TA'VEREN Luck! He is ta'veren, so he is lucky. dont say that the others are not lucky as well. Have you ever seen rand dice? Perrin and mat diced but i think that they canceled each other out, because they MIGHT be equaly ta'veren. It has nothing to do with channeling, does Rands luck go haywire if hes channeled at? If he channels? The dagger happened right after Emonds field, the same time that perrin began the wolfbrother thing. There tavereness and luck was linked to them beggining there journey, not magic or a dagger.

[Mr Ares]

Not so clear as you think. There are DEFINITIVE evidence AGAINST a "jump".

No, there aren't. Only in favour.

 

Besides from when he was HEALED from the effects of the Dagger.

Which in no way, shape or form indicates a suppression of his luck.

 

No, something improved his luck

Right after he picked up the dagger, with no other event fitting the timing.

 

It's not supported by the evidence.

Yes, it is. It is the only thing so supported.

 

Tell me how the 'separation theory' is not supported by the evidence?

He got lucky before Moiraine did anything to him. Therefore the timing doesn't fit.

 

Really?

Yes, really. As you are so blind you have failed to see it despite the numerous times it has been posted, I'm not sure what good this will do, but I will provide the quote again, in bigger letters than ever before. TDR 30: "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth." SL was before Caemlyn. Therefore, the timing doesn't fit for it to be something Moiraine did to him.

 

(why not dice for money if he's so lucky?)

He doesn't win every toss. If his luck isn't in...

! (falls off chair) so according to you, he picks up dagger, has a step increase in luck, but this doesn't manifest itself until after Caemlyn because 'his luck isn't in'. Really, you can do better than that!

No, that has nothing at all to do with what I said. That should surely have been clear to anyone who had read it. I didn't say the luck did not manifest until after Caemlyn, I said it was not always present - it comes in waves. So why trust to luck, even luck as good as Mat's when he can still lose? Before Caemlyn, after Caemlyn, even after TV. When his luck is in, he's very lucky, when it isn't, he's no luckier than anyone else. So he picks up the dagger, has a sharp increase in luck, and decides against relying on that.

 

When? Show me, and I will believe.

It has been posted repeatedly in the thread, but you didn't believe before. TDR 30: "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth"

 

When? Show me, and I will believe.

TDR 30: "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth"

 

Mr Ares is right

Mr Ares uses false reasoning to support any idea of his own and dispute anybody elses.

Mr Ares uses correct reasoning to prove his point, and then has to spend the next 30 pages dealing with people too stubborn to see that, people who need the same simple points repeated over and over before they can finally understand it.

Whether he is right or wrong, the means are unattractive.

The ends justify the means.

Lively reasoned debate is enjoyable, dogma is boring.

You are unwilling to respond to lively reasonable debate. This is not about proving my point, I did that a long time ago. This is about getting you to accept the facts. Thus the debate is over, and now dogma is the only weapon left.

 

Now this has been pointed out, I agree. But the text does not in fact make it clear what weaves were used on Mat in separating him from the dagger, certainly healing wasn't mentioned, and so I stick with my suggestion - just that it must have been something other than healing, something specific to dealing with the dagger's taint.

Mat was still channeled at in relation to the dagger on a number of occasions, yet we have but two changes in his luck - the first before any of them. Caemlyn, Shienar and the road to TV should all have resulted in increases in his luck, by this theory, yet none of them did. His luck did not improve. When it was in, it remained at a consistent high of 6/8 tosses.

 

See - it's so much more enjoyable when you are willing to change your ideas in response to new facts or arguments.

Then provide some, and I might. All you are doing is repeating the same worn out, tired, disproved arguments of the past. This is not debate, this is argument by attrition.

 

His POV. He is fallable. RJ likes the odd bit of misdirection. You fell for it.

Provide evidence that his pov is wrong in this instance.

 

there was loads of evidence presented, if you'd only open your mind to an idea other than your own

There is no evidence. If you had a reasonable theory, I would listen. I have changed my views in relation to new evidence before. That I am not doing so now indicates a lack of compelling reason to do so.

 

...being separated from him. Yes, yes, yes!

So it was the dagger being separated from him that led to his luck increasing after SL? It works backwards in time?

 

"Sure, there were times with Hurin and in Fal Dara when six or eight tosses went my way. But nothing like the luck I'm hving now.".

So what? He himself notes an increase in his luck. If he could expcet those tosses in his favour anyway, then it's not an improvement, yet he clearly feels there has been one. If he had it happen, say, seven or eight times, then he is far luckier than an average person. Your argument is nothing.

 

No "jump" after picking up the Dagger.

Denail of the facts, troll.

 

By the way, suppression/halting/scrambling are different possibilities. It could be any of the three, or none of them...

No, it could only be none of them. They don't fit the evidence. His luck was better when he had the dagger than it had been before.

 

Personally i think that your all wrong.

It would be nice if you had some evidence. Your thoughts are not worth much.

It has been stated on a number of occasions, more than the occasional, "the luck started when i got the dagger" or "i've always been lucky", even mat has said, his TA'VEREN Luck!

Quotes. People used to think it was that, but no-one is currently putting that forward. You'd think that they'd provide a quote if one existed. The dagger is the only thing supported by any evidence from the books that has so far been provided in this 30 page thread.

[dholm]

Even if Mat is wrong about when his luck began (which he could be), the dagger is still the only catalyst that fits the facts.

[kamros]

I dont remember mat ever being really lucky until The Great Hunt.

 

so why does it have to me the dagger that gave him the luck that only started to show up a good bit after the Shadar Logoth thing?

 

Im confused as how people DONT thing that a sepparation from the dagger would mean that it was a suppression. If his luck jumps so much AFTER its seperated from him that should lead you to believe that it suppressed his luck, unless you think that channeling@ mat boosted his luck.

 

Could mat have been developing his luck as a strange ability at the same time as perrin and rand were developing theirs? If this happened then the dagger would have suppressed his luck until he was healed of it in TV later. he gets minor boosts (hat are pretty small in comparison to the later one) when people try to break the ties of the dagger from him or to keep its influence of the dagger from him.

 

please tell me how this is any less believable then a dagger coated in evil giving him the luck then when he doesnt have the dagger any more it gives him even more luck(somehow). Oh also, he has huge holes in his memories but he remembers this.

 

I find it strange that you would trust his opinion when there is nothing showing his with better luck until in the great hunt. He doesnt remember a large portion of the trip to Caemlyn, so how would he remember any instances of luck. Could it be that he is just trying to blame it on something out of the ordinary?

[Alghar Khan]

Yeah, there was no jump when he picked up the Dagger. So the only things we know about the whole thing is that: [1] he was always lucky; and [2] he got extremely lucky when he got healed from the effects of the Dagger.

[OptimusPrime]

I stick with my suggestion - just that it must have been something other than healing, something specific to dealing with the dagger's taint.

 

So you disagree that its the dagger but you think it was the daggers taint. Im willing to make a leap of faith here and assume that when people say it was the dagger that made Mat lucky, they mean the evil of the dagger and the residue of that taint. Thats what I always meant when I said the dagger anyway, way back when I tried reasoning with people on this. And that by extension would mean that the daggers taint would have to sink into Mat for it to start developing.

 

I reckon there are some whose views are the same on this but they just go off the wording of replies.

[Blackhoof]

OK, i admit, my argument wad flawed, but if what Mr Ares is saying is true, then give me one reson, just ONE, why the dagger, taint and all, would affect his luck, not WHAT has happened, WHY it happened, when it is suppose to be from a completely different source, Ta'veren.

 

He states once, CH3,TFoH, in reference to his luck, "Not that he knew where his luck came from...There, he contradicted himself about the luck coming from the dagger,so HE IS NOT SURE. As someone has said, RJ loves misdirection.

 

If you are still insisting that it was the dagger, a thing tainted by mashadar, the evil that destroyed Aridhol, through suspicion and fear, (nothing to do with luck) caused him, despite the fact that he is ta'veren, and therefore naturally going to become lucky, is causing his luck, you are very silly.

 

I'm not saying that the dagger didn't AFFECT him, it may have been some sort of catalyst, perhaps acting as the spark in the powder-keg, or maybe it supressed his luck, like a  dam, and when he was healed, his luck came out in a rush. I have no evidence for this paragraph, but i will not believe Ares until he has given me a reason why the dagger would affect mat.

 

Ps: didn't someone ask RJ and RJ said it WASN'T the dagger? Or am i missing something?

[Mr Ares]

I dont remember mat ever being really lucky until The Great Hunt.

Mat himself dates it to right after SL. We have no reason to not accept that timing.

 

Im confused as how people DONT thing that a sepparation from the dagger would mean that it was a suppression.

Well, if you picked up something, and became instantly stronger, would you think that this item was suppressing your strength? No, nnot when it's just improved it. Suppression is a theory that requitres we ignore the evidence of the books, ignore the first jump in his luck. That I will not do. If picking up the dagger made him luckier, then it did not suppress his luck. What is confusing about that?

 

he gets minor boosts when people try to break the ties of the dagger from him or to keep its influence of the dagger from him.

No he doesn't.

 

I find it strange that you would trust his opinion when there is nothing showing his with better luck until in the great hunt.

I find it strange that you would ignore the facts to support a theory with no evidence backing it.

He doesnt remember a large portion of the trip to Caemlyn

So? If he remembers some, he can remember being lucky.

Could it be that he is just trying to blame it on something out of the ordinary?

Absolutely not. That has been addressed, several times. Mat thinks he would rather it be anything but the dagger.

 

Yeah, there was no jump when he picked up the Dagger.

Well, that's not what RJ said. I take what he wrote over your trolling.

 

give me one reson, just ONE, why the dagger, taint and all, would affect his luck

This would be the magic dagger, would it? The only other person to have prolonged contact with the same magic dagger is Fain, and he has developed supernatural abilities. So it fits perfectly that Mat would.

when it is suppose to be from a completely different source, Ta'veren.

What? It's not supposed to come from ta'veren. Mat even thinks of his luck as being separate from his ta'veren.

 

There, he contradicted himself

No he didn't.

As someone has said, RJ loves misdirection.

RJ also loved fishing. That is no more relevant. Show how this is an example of misdirection - for example, what has RJ to gain by telling us that the luck isn't from ta'veren, hinting quite strongly that it's the dagger, but stopping short of actually spelling it out to us? We believe it's the dagger and then, BAM! The big twist revelation comes, telling us that it isn't, it's ta'veren? What would be the point. Yes, RJ loves misdirection, but to what end is he employing it in this instance? This gives the impression not of something that is addressed, and then the author is moving on. Mat never says "It was the dagger." He just thinks "could it have been the dagger", and "the luck came after SL", and " I would rather it was anything but the dagger", while thinking of a couple of examples of things that don't fit the evidence he himself provides in the same chapter.

 

If you are still insisting that it was the dagger, a thing tainted by mashadar, the evil that destroyed Aridhol, through suspicion and fear, (nothing to do with luck) caused him, despite the fact that he is ta'veren, and therefore naturally going to become lucky, is causing his luck, you are very silly.

If I look at the evidence, evidence like Mat thinking his luck and ta'veren are separate, there being no reason to misdirect us, there being no evidence to support it being ta'veren, it being contradicted by the evidence in the books, that quote from RJ in the thread...In short, I am silly for accepting the weight of evidence, every last little fact we have, indicating that it was the dagger? No. It is utterly absurd to think it could be anything else.

 

I'm not saying that the dagger didn't AFFECT him

So even though it couldn't possibly be the dagger, you still won't rule out it being the dagger. Nice.

or maybe it supressed his luck, like a  dam

Yes, it suppressed it by making him luckier after he picked it up.

I have no evidence for this paragraph

Nor for any of your other paragraphs. Have you even read the thread? Most of this has already been covered at great length.

 

didn't someone ask RJ and RJ said it WASN'T the dagger? Or am i missing something?

If he did, no-one has bothered to provide that quote. If you don't have a quote to support you, you have nothing.

[Alghar Khan]

Well, that's not what RJ said. I take what he wrote over your trolling.

Did he? Can you give the quote, please?

[kamros]

Mr. Ares, your arguing that a memory from a person who lost a good deal of his memories, are actually fact.

 

I seem to remember that you couldn't heal channeling, rand thought he wasn't the Dragon reborn for a bit, perrin though he couldn't talk to wolves. maybe characters can be wrong...

[Lord Monty]

Matt's luck is a result of him being ta'veren. The evidence for this is in TDR chapter 8 page 116 in the paperback edition. It is when Moiraine and Lan are talking to Perrin about how strong ta'veren Artur Hawkwing was. Lan says about Hawkwing ”That there were times when people in the same room with Hawkwing spoke truth when they meant to lie, made decisions they had not even know they were contemplating. Times when every toss of the dice, every turn of the cards, went his way. But only times.”

 

So this is EXACTlY like matt. Hawkwings luck came in waves and so does Matts. There were times Hawkwings luck was infallible just like matts. MATTS LUCK IS DUE TO HIM BEING TA'VEREN!

 

[Blackhoof]

 

Finally someone agrees with me!!! Mat is taveren, so he is lucky, it affects him differently than the others, but HE IS TAVEREN!

 

RJ was asked this, and said no.

 

In reference to the dagger, theres your no, happy mr. Ares? And characters can be wrong, he only begins getting lucky after SL, after book one, in book two, so are you saying that the dagger caused the luck, even though luck comes naturally for ta'veren, then didn't show an effect until a book later? And it caused heaps of luck AFTER he got rid of it???

 

Well, if you picked up something, and became instantly stronger, would you think that this item was suppressing your strength? No, nnot when it's just improved it. Suppression is a theory that requitres we ignore the evidence of the books, ignore the first jump in his luck. That I will not do. If picking up the dagger made him luckier, then it did not suppress his luck. What is confusing about that?

 

So you pick up something and it makes you stronger, and then you get rid of it, and you get WAY stronger, how does that make sense? answer THAT!

 

give me one reson, just ONE, why the dagger, taint and all, would affect his luck

This would be the magic dagger, would it? The only other person to have prolonged contact with the same magic dagger is Fain, and he has developed supernatural abilities. So it fits perfectly that Mat would.

 

Fain gained his abilities from a combination of what was done to him in Shayol Ghul and fusing with Mordeth, not the dagger, he comes to rely on it, perhaps be affected by it slightly, but he was supernatural before the dagger. Give me a quote from fain stating undoubtedly that his powers come from the dagger, and i will drop this thread and accept your theory, verbally, at least. (BTW, Fains "gifts" have nothing to do with luck, do they?") That blows your explanation out of the water, then.

 

 

 

 

 

[Phariah]

ok people if you are gonna use the fact that Mat says he gained his luck from the Dagger at SL. than u have to also accept the fact he says its from the AS healing him because he says it right after that. and than even still u have to accept the fact that he says he has no idea what caused it right after that. 3 statements he made all true? 1 true? 2 true?  if u can't put facts with it than it is not proof, so please link some facts that shows he had luck from picking it up at SL.* hears crickets*  ::)

hmmm just as i thought none. ;)

 

oh ya and since when did the dagger give Fain his abilities? i have only seen 1 power atributed to the dagger and that is its disease rot. his abilities are from Mordeth being combined with Fain who was altered by the DO. not the dagger, if so show me the quote.

[Blackhoof]

Mwa ha ha ha ha! Ares has no chance when we all gang up on him! Good work guys!

[dholm]

Except it cannot have been ta'veren. If it was ta'veren, RJ's statement that his luck comes from the Dark One "in a way" makes no sense.

 

The dagger is the only logical alternative.

[Alghar Khan]

Except it cannot have been ta'veren. If it was ta'veren, RJ's statement that his luck comes from the Dark One "in a way" makes no sense.

He did not say that. He said "in a way" about Mat having "the DO's own luck". Not the same thing.

[Alghar Khan]

Q - Part 1: In TDR, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his one power surgery over the dagger. At one pont she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal out of the tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really rally really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began. Is this a connection or coincidence?

 

RJ: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark one's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

[Phariah]

u can take that RJ talking about a round about way for Mat's luck to come from the DO. so we have Mat becoming taveren to aid Rand to fight the DO. so the DO is the reason Mat became a taveren. so Mat's luck is his natural luck boosted by his taveren which becomes his uber LUCK. so ya i guess the DO was responsible for his luck. ;D

[Alghar Khan]

I think they are both influencing the pattern in a similar way. Both making things happen in their favor. Maybe that's the "in a way" part".

[Lord Monty]

Ok did no body read my post? It says IN THE BOOK that Hawkwing at times had infallible luck just like Matt and it came in waves just like Matt's because he was ta'veren! Matt is ta'veren as well, Lets put one and one together people. Matt's luck is not due to a tainted dagger, not due to being channelled at (although that was an intresting and some what believable theroy), and not due to the DO. It's because he is ta'veren same as Hawkwing's luck was due to him being ta'veren. If you don't trust the quote I used in my pervious post then look it up yourself, I gave the book, the chapter, and the page. ;) 

[Alghar Khan]

Ok did no body read my post?

I read it. I mentioned Hawkwing a bit back in the thread, but I never gave the whole quote. Hawkwing was not in contact with any "enhancing" things, as far as I know.

[Lord Monty]

When people in the book say someone has "the Dark Ones own luck" I take it as a saying which originated from the fact the DO can at times influence things in his favor. So when things happen that seem extremely unlikely for his Fades, Forsaken, ect. they tribute this luck to the DO. Hence the saying "the Dark Ones own luck".

 

Now back to why I'm saying all this. Lets break down RJ's Statement that was previously quoted "When they say that Matt has the DO's own luck, He can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true"

 

1) "When they say that Matt has the DO's own luck". This is when people are commenting on Matt's incredible luck. That comes from him being ta'veren. One of the natures of ta'veren is that they influences things around them. Things going in their favor. So these people commenting on Matt's luck are applying a luck saying to his lucky events. Not literally saying the DO is giving him luck, and neither is RJ.

 

2)"He can get as mad as he wants to" Probably doesn't like anything with the DO applied to him. Probably Creeps him out.

 

3)"but in a way its true" RJ is saying, yes in a way its true that Matt is very lucky like (because he is ta'veren) the way how the DO creatures, forsaken, ect. are lucky due to the DO's influence at times. He is not saying THE DO GIVES MATT HIS LUCK IN ANYWAY(dholm). He is merely commenting on the fact that it is similar.

 

SO in conclusion, I don't know how to tell you "Dagger Theory" lovers any more clearly than I have in my last three post. IT'S not a tainted currupt dagger, that is in no way related to luck, that gave Matt his luck. It is the fact he is ta'veren. If you continue to deny this plain fact in favor of a happen chance supported dagger theory, none of us can help you see the truth of it. And I would go as far to say your weren't ever looking for the truth, instead only looking to mold others to your opinions.

[Lord Monty]

typo on your weren't at the end my last post. Meant you weren't* ha ;D

[TaLise27]

well put Lord Monty, wel put