Does anyone else loathe the Aiel?

[Mutsumi]

And you're assuming the cavalry would travel at the speed of the best horses, while in actual fact they would have to pace themsleves with the slowest horses in the formation while also avoiding any difficult terrain and their dead comrades, while the aiel would be able to move allmost unhindered. Not to mention that the horses would not be able to maintain a full charge for long, losing momentum very fast while it's allready been astablished that the aiel would win in endurance.

 

You only get part of the flankS if you assume relative numerical equality, but that would most likely not be the case. And it isn't very likely the rest of the cavalry would suicide charge the enemies in front while half of their numbers (conservatively) would either be dead or in the process of dying. Once the cavalry starts to lose it's momentum, it's power rapidly diminishes and won't only not be a good counter but would become easy pickings. And that's assuming the cavalry doesn't get tied down before it even gets to charge.

 

As for the formation, they wouldn't stay in the formation long enough to lose their advantages and it wouldn't be the whole aiel army just part of it. And which do you think is in more danger from shooting, the aiel at long to out of range, or the unbarded cavvies at short range?

 

Stopping a cavalry charge isn't easy by any means, I'm not suggesting that, but neither is the charge even close to as devastating or easy to pull off as you seem to assume. Using real life as an example is not a very good comparison, seeing that there really isn't a very good equivalent to the aiel, and most of the time when the glorious light skirmish slaughter by cav's happened, it was against peasants, fleeing or throwaway units, archers or numerically equal to less forces that most of the time had no real grasp of strategy, morale, skill or ability to work as a unit. It's one thing to ride down peasant, but don't try to equalize the situation with what would happen with aiel.

 

Not really, the best horses can reach 45-50 miles per hour, and it seems clear that most wetland nations know a fair bit about horse breeding so its not unreasonable to assume they'd have at least good quality horses if not superb.

 

Also, it's not a matter of numerical advantage with the flank, it's that there just wont be that much frontage to attack, because you have to make sure you aren't in front of them and they'll be moving very fast. Sort of like when shooting at a target moving perpendicular to you. If you try to lap round the back they'll speed ahead of you and if you try to gain more frontage by attacking the front you'll have to take some of the charge. If you stop to shoot you aren't running and so the charge will crash home. And the cavalry in the middle would keep going, it would be unlikely they would even notice that their comrades on the wings were becoming bogged down until after the melee began.

 

And the reason there are no real life examples to choose from is because we only have human beings to work with here out in the real world. We don't have demi-gods which is why nobody compares to the Aiel.

 

 

 

Just...no. See you again forgot numerical superiority and everything about tactics. You don't have to make the flank charge all at once on a narrow frontage. Making a tiered charge to the flank woould neatly bybass any frontage issues. And again, they don't move at the speed of best horses, they move at the speed of the slowest horses in the unit carrying significant weight. The reason there isn't a real life example isn't becaus superhuman abitilities, but because the Aiel are a combination of factors from several different groups that existed. There isn't a direct equivalent for seanchan either but that doesn't make them superhuman now does it? (the damane and the creatures do ;D)

 

As for Elmis' list, numebrs 1 through 5 and 8 are the result of constant practice and experience, number 6 the aiel have their own quirks too, 7 is a bit odd I'll give you that but not exactly something that makes them superhuman. 9 is a cultural and societal thing and similar behavior has been observed in real world too to some extent, while 10 is just genetics thought I'll grant you that I don't know how they get enough nutrition in the waste to maintain that but again are you really going to base your arguement on nutritional factors?

 

In the end though all this is fairly irrelevant in the sence that while there might be some suspensions of logic attached to aiel, it's not really that major and this is fantasy afterall and as far as fantasy worlds go the aiel are pretty minor.

[Braus]

number 6, Thats what game of houses, noble systems etc brings in a way :) Oh and ofc having a house of your own instead of a tent. Then again the Aiel get treasures through the fifth, and they got craftsmen etc and farmers who isnt warriors, but i keep getting the feeling that they are a very free people when it comes to possessions.

What i mean to say, they are proberly as smart as the wetlands, they just got different values and different ways of living. Besides they seem alot more compact, compared to lets say a farmer in andor who almost never go anywhere, the clans somehow... dunno.

 

7... well dont really know how the waste looks like exactly. I mean ive gotten the feeling that the whole place isnt a desert.. i mean just think about the first time Egwene saw Amys, she was hunting some deer or something and there was a lion nearby? There is no lions in the desert, that much i know. So my gut feelings tell me that the Threshold lands is made up of sand desert and dry african savhannas. But again, i dont know:P About if they are close to 1 million people... again got no idea how big of a country this place actually is. Remember how long it would take for the furthest clan to reach that place where Rand was to meet them all, once again i forget the name. And that place was after all somewhere in the middle of the threshold lands right?

 

9. This shouldnt be apart of the arguement really, not the superhuman arguement. But i dont know :) i mean at least im pleased with how we have been informed about this throughout the books, it makes sense to me. Its the way of the Aiel.

[elmis]

I don't have a problem with either one of these points I've made, and as I've stated several times I don't have a problem with the Aiel. All I'm saying is that Militiades' points aren't totally without merit. To take in that the majority of those points fit an entire people of "regular" humans, you have to suspend reality for a bit, and sit back and say: "Well, it is a fantasy book.".

 

Without putting words into Militiades' mouth - that's at least how I understood his initial post.

 

As to the waste, Braus, I've always envisioned it as the Arizona deserts. Hot during the day, cold during the night, little water, you have prey, and some bushes and whatnot.

 

[Braus]

btw aiel in snow :)

 

[Miltiades]

I don't have a problem with either one of these points I've made, and as I've stated several times I don't have a problem with the Aiel. All I'm saying is that Militiades' points aren't totally without merit. To take in that the majority of those points fit an entire people of "regular" humans, you have to suspend reality for a bit, and sit back and say: "Well, it is a fantasy book.".

 

Without putting words into Militiades' mouth - that's at least how I understood his initial post.

 

As to the waste, Braus, I've always envisioned it as the Arizona deserts. Hot during the day, cold during the night, little water, you have prey, and some bushes and whatnot.

 

 

That's exactly what I'm saying, they're a race of people where the average member is exceptional in every way. Like you pointed out, if you want to be able to run ridiculous distances really fast, you have to give up in other areas. You can't carry heavy, calorie consuming muscles, that is if you're a regular human.

 

You just don't get races of 6'6'' muscle bound Herakles' who are also world class cross country runners. You especially don't get humans growing that big in a place like the waste, where it is advantageous to be more compact so your fuel requirement is less and it's easier to survive on the little food there is.

[Braus]

Now your an muscle expert suddenly?

 

really go look at lets say a swimmer, i bet he can beat you on running anytime aswell. Or say a boxer, or some other martial arts.

 

Todays stereotype for a marathon runner is a skinny kenyan. What makes them run fast? the altitude they live on? genetics. You dont need to be small as a stick to be able to run long, and once again its not about the extremes. Who cares if Aiel can run faster than a horse, i certainly dont, the fact that is presented in the books is that they can can run long and keep a rather high pace. Say, do you remember when Perrin leaves from Tear to go to the ways and the two rivers? How he, Faile and Loial gallops ahead and the Aiel gets behind. Thats the kind of running im talking about, and they are also slowly catching up because if Faile/Perrin and Loial would keep galloping like that with their horses they would die, they will sooner or later pretty much be forced to step off and lead the animals or let them rest. Fast and steady.

[Miltiades]

Aside from that, even skirmishing infantry can set up a pike square. It is extremely hard to coax a horse into attacking a pike formation, mainly because they know it's not very smart to impale oneself on sharp sticks.

 

Erm, no they cant. Probably because skirmishing infantry don't carry pikes. Pikes being the principle ingredient in a pike square. As others have pointed out, the Aiel spears are about as long as swords, so they've forgone the advantage that true spears confer against mounted opponents. And why wouldn't they? It's not like they ever have to face cavalry in the waste.

 

Ever heard the word 'discipline'?

 

You don't seem to have even the smallest grasp of tactics. You just continue to say, "Foot can't stand up to horse!"

 

Foot equipped as the Aiel are cant stand up to horse, and never have. That is precisely why things like pikes squares were developed, to counter the enormous advantage that cavalry has against infantry who aren't equipped and formed up properly to defeat them.

 

Basically the Aiel army consists entirely of the type of soldier that cavalry love to fight; loose order skirmishers. Because they cant escape and they cant hold their ground, it's just a breeze to ride over them.

 

 

 

 

 

[Braus]

Aiel isnt just one type of soldier. As said many times, they got a big arsenal and they are mobility themselves.

 

Im not sure what im supposed to picture in my mind, Aiel caught by suprise by a stealthy heavy cavalery charge in the middle of a open field, preferably a valley with heavy cavelry racing down upon them?

[Miltiades]

Now your an muscle expert suddenly?

 

really go look at lets say a swimmer, i bet he can beat you on running anytime aswell. Or say a boxer, or some other martial arts.

 

Todays stereotype for a marathon runner is a skinny kenyan. What makes them run fast? the altitude they live on? genetics. You dont need to be small as a stick to be able to run long, and once again its not about the extremes. Who cares if Aiel can run faster than a horse, i certainly dont, the fact that is presented in the books is that they can can run long and keep a rather high pace. Say, do you remember when Perrin leaves from Tear to go to the ways and the two rivers? How he, Faile and Loial gallops ahead and the Aiel gets behind. Thats the kind of running im talking about, and they are also slowly catching up because if Faile/Perrin and Loial would keep galloping like that with their horses they would die, they will sooner or later pretty much be forced to step off and lead the animals or let them rest. Fast and steady.

 

Everything you say is true, however those boxers and swimmers are people who've reached the happy medium, a good all round fitness level. But they will never be as good as someone who focuses entirely on one area. So you cant reach the pinnacle of fitness of all areas.

 

The Aiel however, are bigger, stronger, faster, tougher and have better endurance than anyone else. They're all as tall as Rand, as stacked as Perrin, can run at the level of world class athletes, and do all this on the sustenance they receive from a barren desert.

 

 

 

And anyway, I've never said a wetlander army could move faster than an Aiel one. But once the two forces come close enough to fight the Aiel's speed will be totally outclassed by the horse's because the distances will favour the sprint of the horse over the endurance of the Aiel. So the mobility of the Aiel will not protect them from being mowed down if and when the cavalry closes. This is why i said that Aiel mobility doesnt mean shit within the context of a battle, as in once the forces have closed, the distances are too small for your endurance to matter.

[Miltiades]

Aiel isnt just one type of soldier. As said many times, they got a big arsenal and they are mobility themselves.

 

Im not sure what im supposed to picture in my mind, Aiel caught by suprise by a stealthy heavy cavalery charge in the middle of a open field, preferably a valley with heavy cavelry racing down upon them?

 

They are just one type of soldier, that is a simple fact. Yes their infantry double as archers but that doesnt change the fact that they're all equipped in the same fashion.

 

You're supposed to picture a pitched battle, you know, by far the most common kind. Where the enemy cavalry does get to charge and that's why you prepare for this eventuality by having pikemen or the like or even just using your own cavalry.

[Braus]

"The Aiel however, are bigger, stronger, faster, tougher and have better endurance than anyone else. They're all as tall as Rand, as stacked as Perrin, can run at the level of world class athletes, and do all this on the sustenance they receive from a barren desert.

 

Bigger, that depends what you mean exactly, if we are talking muscles and we are strictly speaking Aiel warriors, then yes naturally someone who has been training his whole life to become a Aiel warrior will be very fit indeed.

Stronger, im taking em one by one even if that sentence maybe not need to be taken exactly literally. Anyway its never stated that Aiel are stronger than the average wetlanders, generally though once again Aiel warrior have trained for ages so it should once again be rather natural that they are strong, they are after all warriors. You dont train to become a warrior by following a diet and losing kilos, or sitting reading books all day.

Faster, dunno if they are faster, once again ive never made the whole "faster than a horse arguement", if anything the fact that Perrin/Faile/Loial got so far ahead of Gaul/Chiad and Bain should pretty much crush that thought, if someone still has it. One thing everyone who have read the books does know though, is that Aiel and especially Aiel warriors never ride, and they always use their feet. And they travel by running/trotting whenever they need to get somewhere and just the fact that they have successfully traveled like this in the waste for thousands of years, yes literally since a hundred years or so after the breaking, should mean that they are pretty endured. Another thing drawing a line to all these africans we got who do so good in running sports, isnt the Waste abit over sealevel? at least it feels that way when you look at maps, but who knows.

Tougher Dont think Aiel is any tougher than wetlanders. A experienced Aiel warrior, which all of them actually is, is proberly alot more tougher than some farm boy with a sword or a noble in fine silks riding on his horse though, but i doubt they are any tougher compared to say Uno and his gang, unless this is something that is unique for the Aiel. Remember? Embrace the pain(hint, Egwene in the tower)

Endurance, well running/walking pretty much everyday, training as a soldier etc etc(Aiel warriors, once again, dont do chores, they got Gaishain) Should give quite some endurance indeed. Im sure i would be pretty endurant if i trained like them everyday from very early age. Especially if i had their genetics.

Tall Well the Aiel is tall, just like the average Carhienar is short... Those Carhienars are really op tbh. Or why not the Asians.

As musculus as Perrin, tbh im not sure how big Perrin actually is. True we keep getting descriptions of how much practise he gotten from his years as a apprentice, his what 3-5 years? no idea how long he stayed with the Luhans. But once again nowhere in the book its stated that all Aiel are like that. Besides, if you should find big as in muscles people anywhere in the WOT world, id say the Aiel waste is proberly a great place to start looking. Because of the huge amount of trained soldiers, and the way they train.

 

World class athletes... well dunno this is extremly hard to compare really. This whole thread has been filled with our world vs the wheel of time world, but one thing you at least should have to do if you compare something, is comparing it with how it was in the middle ages in our time. You cant compare how it is today. If Humans are supposed to be Humans unless said differently, you cant compare to Humans in the 2000th century. Besides who is to say that we havent grown soft? what if there was better marathon runners, even if they didnt compete, say 1000 years ago? Todays world is very very comfortable. And well erm, thats not only the west world. Ofc there is people still starving to death sadly, but there is abig difference again. I doubt a beggar in a city is that good at running and generally since say thousand years ago, until today - the world have really gotten more comfortable for everyone, or at least the old way of living of the lands is pretty much extinguished, be you poor or rich.

[Rolan]

I disagree with Militiades's original arguement and generally am against his opinion on the Aiel. However, his point about the Aiel's fitness/muscularity is a very valid one.

 

But then again, this kind of inconsistency is present through the whole series, not just with the Aiel. Perrin for example is described as having thick slabs of muscle on his chest..You won't work your chest swinging a hammer on a forge. Also, he seems to go almost the whole series eating very little, you'd lose the muscle you had without consuming a good amount of protein/calories each day. This is also a valid point against the muscularity of the Aielmen. They seem to scrounge what they can and never lose muscle (that we hear/know of)despite the huge distances that they run.

 

Now I'm not criticising Jordan at all here, this is a fantasy book. It would suck a lot if everything was as mundane as it is in our world. How lame would it be if Gaul took 5 from his battle against the WCs to down a protein shake and some chicken? This is a fantasy work, and the Aiel are slightly unbelievable as people in our world, as are the trollocs, fades, warders etc.

 

Stop judging people in the book by the standards of our world and enjoy it.

[Miltiades]

 

World class athletes... well dunno this is extremly hard to compare really. This whole thread has been filled with our world vs the wheel of time world, but one thing you at least should have to do if you compare something, is comparing it with how it was in the middle ages in our time. You cant compare how it is today. If Humans are supposed to be Humans unless said differently, you cant compare to Humans in the 2000th century. Besides who is to say that we havent grown soft? what if there was better marathon runners, even if they didnt compete, say 1000 years ago? Todays world is very very comfortable. And well erm, thats not only the west world. Ofc there is people still starving to death sadly, but there is abig difference again. I doubt a beggar in a city is that good at running and generally since say thousand years ago, until today - the world have really gotten more comfortable for everyone, or at least the old way of living of the lands is pretty much extinguished, be you poor or rich.

 

If anything that would work for my case and against yours. Humans have been growing larger recently because of the superabundance of food that we now have available. We are wealthy enough that people can afford to dedicate their lives to pursuits that do not produce anything useful, such as being athletes. I haven't brought this up so far because I think it would be incredibly anal to gripe about logistics but there is absolutely no way that nomads living in a desert could afford to train and fight their whole lives, absolutely no way. The Spartans just about managed this by enslaving basically the entire population of southern Greece so that they could devote themselves to war and have the helots produce all their food. Even with this their population dwindled, and the Spartan homoioi were overwhelmingly outnumbered by their helot slaves leading to frequent rebellions.

 

Besides which, harsh environments like the waste produce tough, hardy people. That is not the same as physically perfect specimens. Growing big and strong is not a result of hardship but of plenty.

 

But as I aid I dont really mind any of this, I can suspend my disbelief and not get too annoyed about the logistical impossibility of a 250,000 strong army coming out of a barren wasteland. It's just every time the Aiel show up and there's a fight I'm like;  ''oh god'' *roll eyes* ''here we go again, time to hear how the Aiel own all and how much better in every conceivable way they are than everyone else''

[Braus]

I disagree with Militiades's original arguement and generally am against his opinion on the Aiel. However, his point about the Aiel's fitness/muscularity is a very valid one.

 

But then again, this kind of inconsistency is present through the whole series, not just with the Aiel. Perrin for example is described as having thick slabs of muscle on his chest..You won't work your chest swinging a hammer on a forge. Also, he seems to go almost the whole series eating very little, you'd lose the muscle you had without consuming a good amount of protein/calories each day. This is also a valid point against the muscularity of the Aielmen. They seem to scrounge what they can and never lose muscle (that we hear/know of)despite the huge distances that they run.

 

Now I'm not criticising Jordan at all here, this is a fantasy book. It would suck a lot if everything was as mundane as it is in our world. How lame would it be if Gaul took 5 from his battle against the WCs to down a protein shake and some chicken? This is a fantasy work, and the Aiel are slightly unbelievable as people in our world, as are the trollocs, fades, warders etc.

 

Stop judging people in the book by the standards of our world and enjoy it.

 

Must.... Defend.... the Aiel...

 

argh

[Mutsumi]

Now that fitness thing is an arguement, I might go along with also. But I wouldn't say that makes them superhuman in the degree that it should deter from the enjoyment or make you "loathe" them. Pretty much everyone in the series is fit, the girls are all pretty and well proportioned. (all loaned clothes seem to bee too tight on the bust etc.) All that is just part of fantasy writing. And I still maintain that the aiel are still in the realm of feasibility even if they are a bit unlikely given the dietary requirements, but really if your beef boild down to dietary requirements or being just a tad too fit then that really is your problem.

 

As for tactics side, those have been discussed, and unless someone brings something new to the table I don't see anything changing. Militiades gave his arguements, we gave ours and no one changed their mind. That how debates usually go unfortunately...

[Braus]

 

World class athletes... well dunno this is extremly hard to compare really. This whole thread has been filled with our world vs the wheel of time world, but one thing you at least should have to do if you compare something, is comparing it with how it was in the middle ages in our time. You cant compare how it is today. If Humans are supposed to be Humans unless said differently, you cant compare to Humans in the 2000th century. Besides who is to say that we havent grown soft? what if there was better marathon runners, even if they didnt compete, say 1000 years ago? Todays world is very very comfortable. And well erm, thats not only the west world. Ofc there is people still starving to death sadly, but there is abig difference again. I doubt a beggar in a city is that good at running and generally since say thousand years ago, until today - the world have really gotten more comfortable for everyone, or at least the old way of living of the lands is pretty much extinguished, be you poor or rich.

 

Actually, the nutrion in our food has grown alot worse as time as gone ^^ Just compare vegtebales, meat etc etc. There is alot of stuff out there that actually have gone for the worse, and dont let me argue for that because i wont be able to answer properly, im sure with just a little searching you can find reports on that exact subject.

About the slaves etc... well dont know tbh. I mean im not really certain what kind of balance it needs to be between how many warriors you can have and how many civilians/gaishain you need. But fact remains that they get Gai shain. And the waste isnt a small place, its actually HUGE if you look at the map. And also, as i said big parts seems to be very similar to the african savannahs. brb taking dog out.

If anything that would work for my case and against yours. Humans have been growing larger recently because of the superabundance of food that we now have available. We are wealthy enough that people can afford to dedicate their lives to pursuits that do not produce anything useful, such as being athletes. I haven't brought this up so far because I think it would be incredibly anal to gripe about logistics but there is absolutely no way that nomads living in a desert could afford to train and fight their whole lives, absolutely no way. The Spartans just about managed this by enslaving basically the entire population of southern Greece so that they could devote themselves to war and have the helots produce all their food. Even with this their population dwindled, and the Spartan homoioi were overwhelmingly outnumbered by their helot slaves leading to frequent rebellions.

 

Besides which, harsh environments like the waste produce tough, hardy people. That is not the same as physically perfect specimens. Growing big and strong is not a result of hardship but of plenty.

 

But as I aid I dont really mind any of this, I can suspend my disbelief and not get too annoyed about the logistical impossibility of a 250,000 strong army coming out of a barren wasteland. It's just every time the Aiel show up and there's a fight I'm like;  ''oh god'' *roll eyes* ''here we go again, time to hear how the Aiel own all and how much better in every conceivable way they are than everyone else''

[Miltiades]

I disagree with Militiades's original arguement and generally am against his opinion on the Aiel. However, his point about the Aiel's fitness/muscularity is a very valid one.

 

But then again, this kind of inconsistency is present through the whole series, not just with the Aiel. Perrin for example is described as having thick slabs of muscle on his chest..You won't work your chest swinging a hammer on a forge. Also, he seems to go almost the whole series eating very little, you'd lose the muscle you had without consuming a good amount of protein/calories each day. This is also a valid point against the muscularity of the Aielmen. They seem to scrounge what they can and never lose muscle (that we hear/know of)despite the huge distances that they run.

 

Now I'm not criticising Jordan at all here, this is a fantasy book. It would suck a lot if everything was as mundane as it is in our world. How lame would it be if Gaul took 5 from his battle against the WCs to down a protein shake and some chicken? This is a fantasy work, and the Aiel are slightly unbelievable as people in our world, as are the trollocs, fades, warders etc.

 

Stop judging people in the book by the standards of our world and enjoy it.

 

Exactly, in order to maintain a level of fitness where you can run so far you need to do run every day. Plus they need to train at weapons and martial arts to keep up their mad ninja skills. The calorie requirments for such a lifestyle would be enormous. Royal Marines for example are fed over 4000 calories a day, and at some stages training becomes so intense that they still lose weight. Getting that much nourishment from such the Waste would be simply impossible.

 

Your point about Gaul going for a protein shake cracked me up by the way.

 

Thing is, if all the humans were pulling crazy stunts like the Aiel it would be easier to handle, it's just that everyone else (who cant channel) just seems like basic humans, while the Aiel are something more.

[Miltiades]

Braus I agree with you that the nutritional value of many of our foods has decreased, but these aren't the foods that people serious about their fitness eat. I know something about this because I keep in very good shape myself. You always eat foods as close to their natural form as possible, stay away from all the processed crap that gets produced. So professional athletes today aren't eating the food like substances that pass for food a lot of the time these days, they're eating good food and a lot of it.

 

As for the gai'shain, you need to remember that the gai'shain are the warriors. They've just been captured. So in order to support a population of warriors like the Aiel have, about 90% of them would have to be captured gai'shain at any one time to support the others. That means they wouldn't get in nearly as much training as everyone is assuming. Also, a lot of the gai'shain spend their time doing things other than producing. They seem to spend far too much time acting as body servants to form the economic backbone of a society and support a group of incredibly wasteful full-time warriors.

 

Also, though the waste may be huge, there is simply no way you could gather 250,000 people together in a place where the biggest concentrations of water is a shallow pool, especially when it's so hot. Your army would dehydrate and drop to about 5-10,000 in a matter of days as all the rest died of thirst.

[Braus]

Your just pulling numbers right now  ;D and well i got no idea how life in the Aiel waste is. We cant just Assume all the time. The only thing we actually know for certain is that water is very spare. Pretty much the only water they have is a few oases so to say, and a few springs coming from mountains etc as far as we have been told. Thats pure water. Then its supposedly possible to get water from plants etc.

 

About how they feed themselves we hardly know. One thing we do know tho is that one of the kind of livestock that they are using are those sheep/goats that was close to that house in the waste that was filled with blood. Those sheeps/goats actually didnt need any water, they got enough from the plants they ate. So at least they dont need to give water to them. Maybe there is more convinient livestock/plants throughout the waste. One thing that is certain at least is that its not a sand desert with no plants at all. Sure some parts might be pure desert, but the lands are big and obviously there is life, even extremly sparse small trees.

 

As said its not really touched that much how they feed themselves, even though its said that there is planted terraces in place like cold rock holds(i think they were growing tomatoes or something right?:) so long ago my last reread now :P) But who knows, maybe the wise ones got some trick.

 

And as said, your kinda pulling of numbers when you say that that and that is needed to feed that and that many. But yeah its really hard to argue about stuff like this since there is barely any information except what is written in the book and the map, which shows pretty much nothing except that the waste is really big, takes months and months to get across it apparently if we look at how far away the clans was to the meeting place.

[Braus]

Oh and say a spring or a well could possible give water to ALOT AND ALOT of people. For drinking.

A pond on the other hand only got so much water...

[elmis]

Adding some quotes to a few of the passages I mentioned in my previous post, to further underline what I mean when I say that the Aiel have been beefed up, and seem like a nation of Warders (or rather a nation of Lan clones), in the beginning of the series.

 

The three Myrddraal stood back-to-back in the center of the room' date=' black swords in their hands. One was clutching his side as if wounded, though he gave no other sign of it. Another had a long gash down its pale face; it did not bleed. Around them circled the five veiled Aiel still alive, crouching. [..'] The Myrddraal turned with them, and their eyeless faces seemed uncertain, uneasy that the fear their gaze struck into every human heart did not seem to touch these.

 

[a little later - after the Myrddraal have been killed by the wonder girls]

 

They were tall these Aielmen, and young or old, they had that calm sureness in their eyes, that dangerous grace of motion Egwene associated with Warders; death rode on their shoulders, and they knew it was there and were not afraid.

 

[jumping a bit further]

 

"I am sorry," Elayne said in a clear voice, "that we interrupted your . . . dance. Perhaps we should not have interfered." [... Rhuarc speaks] "We could have killed them, but three shadowmen. . . . They would have killed two or three of us, certainly, perhaps all, and I cannot say we would have finished them all."

 

That certainly sets the Aiel, as a people - granted, we have the named characters Rhuarc and Avi here, but there are also others no-named Aiel - being as deadly as Warders, saying they could kill three Myrddraal and perhaps only take two deaths themselves.

 

Lets jump back to book two, and see how some borderlanders fare against a Myrddraal..

 

Then he came to a crossing of corridors, and to his left the tail end of a fight. Six top-knotted men lay bleeding and still, and a seventh was dying. the Myrddraal gave its sword an extra twist as it pulled the blade free of the man's belly, and the soldier screamed as he dropped his sword and fell. The Fade moved with a viperous grace, and the serpent illusion heightened by the armor of black, overlapping plates that covered its chest. It turned and that pale, eyeless face studied Rand. It started toward him, smiling a bloodless smile, not hurrying. It had no need to hurry for one man alone.

 

He felt rooted where he stood; his tongue stuck to the roof of his mouth. The look of the Eyeless is fear. That was what they said along the Border. His hands shook as he raised his sword. He never even thought of assuming the void. Light, it just killed seven armed soldiers together. Light, what am I going to do. Light!

 

So here, one Myrddraal kills seven Fal Dara soldiers - whom I assume fight, and train just as hard as the Aiel, if not harder, as they are fed and clothed by Lord Agelmar and don't have to worry about any of that. They are not unaccustomed to Myrddraal either, living right on the border to the Blight. I would go as far as saying that the Aiel are less accustomed to them, as the Trollocks and Myrddraal don't enter the Waste and in Bair's words, going into the Blight is something only "wild young men do, and Maidens with less sense than goats.". (tFoH - Chapter 34).

 

The Gray Men bit I mentioned earlier:

 

Dead Aielmen lay at Rand's feet' date=' tangled with the bodies of three ordinary men in very ordinary coats and breeches, Ordinary-looking men, except that six Aiel, the entire guard, had been slain. some obviously before they knew what was happening, and each of those ordinary men had at least two Aiel spears through him.[/quote']

 

So four Gray Men, the pinnacle of shadow assassins, before the introduction of the Gholam take three dead versus six Aiel.

 

Lan came to stand infront of Perrin. "How did you know them' date=' blacksmith?" he asked quietly. "Their taint of evil is not strong enough for Moiraine and me to sense. Gray Men have walked past a hundred guards without being noticed, and Warders among them."[/quote']

 

Six Aiel does feats that hundred guards, with Warders among them, have failed to do.

 

[dholm]

Oh come on...

 

Rhuarc very specifically says that three Myrddraal would have killed two or three without the help of Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve. He adds, "Perhaps all." Rhuarc is among the more skilled Aiel, and he isn't certain his group of Aiel can kill Myrddraal, even with superior numbers.

 

I'll add that Mat and Perrin have each faced Myrddraal alone and killed them.

 

The Fal Dara soldiers are just that: Soldiers. They face Trollocs, not Myrddraal. A single wound from a Myrddraal kills. If any of them had killed Myrddraal before, they probably shot it. The Aiel face Aiel every day. While Trollocs are more than enough for the average guy, Aiel are more dangerous. They're smarter and more deadly because of it.

 

The Grey Men bit is just silly. The Grey Men are not soldiers, they are assassins. Grey Men aren't any more skilled than anyone else. They are simply nigh unnoticeable. Noticing a Grey Man is a matter of luck. Unless you've seen Aiel consistently notice Grey Men, it really means nothing... and as a matter of fact, we know that they did NOT notice all of them. Reread the paragraph; some of them died before they knew what was happening. One of the Aiel got lucky.

[Thor]

first if all sensing is not the same as killing.

 

the aiel may have killed the greymen, but it would have been too late to stop the greymen from making the first strike.  they most likely already achieved their primary objective.

[maximumiron]

I did not make it thru all of the post's but I think Jordan meant for the aiel to be disliked by most. A society vastly different and mysterious. Many mention guerrilla tactics, but I think that they were based on the Zulu during the modern age and the Mongols of a past era. We do not actually see much of the tactics of the aiel just impressions. Lan does explain tactics to Rand although Jordan leaves most of it vague to the reader, as he has fought the aiel and is respected by them, but most other scenarios describe simple tactics by the wetlanders and how they do not understand how they are over run. The aiel move in for the attack and then move on, even the aiel that follow the false dragon move quickly compared to the wetlanders (although other aiel may see them as staying put too long) most of the time we see Rand telling the chiefs were to attack he is not deciding tactics he is mandating the goal. The mongols moved in quickly from many directions and in most cases the invaded nations thought there were many times more as the mongols were attacking the next area while people were just getting news of the first attack. Hitler studied Subodei the mongol general and based his blitzkrieg attack on this basis. If he had not been such a micromanaging leader, and so evil that he could not be ignored,  his generals were very capable of winning.

 

Cities breed lazy people even today. We go one place for our food, and to another to have machinery repaired. In these societies a master craftsman may have created the weapons but you still have to be able to do almost everything for yourself.

 

And lastly attitude of a people is the most important. The aiel came from a peaceful society were people could take the greatest hardships to show their pride in belief of were they belonged in the world. The self discipline is key here, we see this in the modern world with the japanese. They were able to be effective and feared in world war 2 because of their belief emperor and nation before self, they kept this philosophy after the war, by realizing they could produce better and cheaper items, by continually trying to improve. Self Discipline! Self Discipline! Self Discipline!

[balefired-ed2]

Secondly, I have a great deal of trouble seeing how the Aiel could manage to successfully and consistently be able to stand up to a heavy cavalry charge.

 

*Sigh...*  Because they don't even try to "stand up to a heavy cavalry charge."  Their mobility allows them to avoid the brunt of the charge altogether.  They may take casualties, but it won't be anything compared to what another infantry unit would take if they attempted to "stand up to a heavy cavalry charge."

 

As has been stated several times in this thread by myself and many others, the Aiel don't press battle when the conditions don't favor them, unless they have no alternative.  They've got the best recon, they're as mobile as light cavalry (perhaps more so, since they're less impeded by terrain), they can double as artillery, so, unless you can out-maneuver them they're not gonna offer battle if the conditions are unfavorable.  They're gonna redeploy and get you when the ground favors them and/or when you least expect it.

 

Battle is not always (and as a matter of fact rarely is) the neat little lines of troops firing at or fighting one another across an open field on a clear day.  That 'senario' is a Hollywood story.

 

First, we are on a message board where neither of us would post if we were not WoT fans. I find the way in which you are replying to me to be very rude and wish you would apologize. If you disagree with me, that is fine. I will still argue that I am right, and you are wrong, and you will do the same. However, there is no need to be insulting with your post and typing *sigh*.

 

On the argument that Aiel would not be in the situation that they had to face a heavy cavalry charge, I disagree. Especially at the Blood Snow. At such a massed battle, in my opinion, they would not have been able to decide to avoid such a condition. I look forward to your reply.