What are they talking about?

[Master Norry]

In TFoH, chapter 54 (To Caemlyn) we see a flashback of Rand listening in at a conversation between the Wise Ones and Aviendha. Sorilea says that "at least Maidens could handle men in her days" and Melaine says "It would be easier if you (Aviendha) had succeeded by now". Than Amys'drops in that "She has been more succesful then they think". Than they see Rand and cut of.

 

Now comes the obvious question:

What are they talking about?

[Mcpatrick]

Isn't it obvious?

 

Aviendha was supposed to seduce Rand. She did.

 

 

[Master Norry]

No it ISN't obvious. She wasn't AND didn't...

[Luckers]

She was and did. She didn't want to of course--mostly because she did want to. An amusing contradiction since it was that which made it work--which was why Amys made her comment.

[Master Norry]

But wouldnt it be COMPLETELY unlike her?

 

And doesn't Rand reason that she couldn't have done that, by denying him even a kiss after "The Far Snows" (or something like it)?

[Luckers]

I edited since you made that post to make myself more clear--we did it at the same time. Sorry for the confusion.

[Mcpatrick]

But wouldnt it be COMPLETELY unlike her?

 

And doesn't Rand reason that she couldn't have done that, by denying him even a kiss after "The Far Snows" (or something like it)?

 

Well, she succeeded completely. Rand admitted to Min in LoC that he was in love with Aviendha. If that isn't a successful seduction, I don't know what is.

 

Would it really be completely unlike her? I mean, by the time she gives him the belt buckle (which i believe happens in book 4), she is in love with him. She behaves the way she does, because she made her promise to Egwene, because the wise ones are trying to push her into it, and because she knows its in her future. And, well, she doesn't exactly understand men, let alone a wetlander man who is going mad.

[Master Norry]

But why would the Wise Ones want her to?

[arkinia]

For gossip material in the sweat tents.

[Shard]

No it ISN't obvious. She wasn't AND didn't...

 

Didn't she?

 

They wanted to have Avi be with Rand for the same reason Berelain wants to be with Rand, for Influence and control. I thought it was very obvious what they wanted, they are afraid that this Wetlander is going to destroy them, just like Moraine is both afraid of what Rand will do and hopeful. They are seeking to control an uncontrollable situation as best as they can. One way is the classic "woman seducing man bit" and by them saying she has succeded more then they realized was that Rand was falling for Avi and not just in lust with her.

 

They wanted Rand to care for their people and not just see them as a sea of spears or weapons to be broken on the slopes of Shayol Ghul.

 

I thought the wise ones motivations were quite transparent I believe they have even come out and said it several times as well. The clincher is when we have that meeting between Cadsuane and Sorelia, they both want Rand to remember being human and one way is for him to remember Love.

[Mandragoran]

And doesn't Rand reason that she couldn't have done that, by denying him even a kiss after "The Far Snows" (or something like it)?

But why would the Wise Ones want her to?

Rand reasons she isn't like one of Colavaere's women because seducing him is clearly not her intention. But the Wise Ones nevertheless intended for Aviendha to remind Rand of his blood, to have sympathy for the Aiel lest he carelessly use them as a weapon at Tarmon Gaidon to their destruction. What better way to do that than to have him be affectionate toward an Aiel woman and even accept her as wife. They must have foreseen something of this in their Dreaming just like Aviendha did in the ter'angreal. Early on one of the Wise Ones almost lets slip that she'd lay (the girl on him).

[Master Norry]

 

They wanted to have Avi be with Rand for the same reason Berelain wants to be with Rand, for Influence and control. I thought it was very obvious what they wanted, they are afraid that this Wetlander is going to destroy them, just like Moraine is both afraid of what Rand will do and hopeful. They are seeking to control an uncontrollable situation as best as they can. One way is the classic "woman seducing man bit" and by them saying she has succeded more then they realized was that Rand was falling for Avi and not just in lust with her.

 

They wanted Rand to care for their people and not just see them as a sea of spears or weapons to be broken on the slopes of Shayol Ghul.

 

I thought the wise ones motivations were quite transparent I believe they have even come out and said it several times as well. The clincher is when we have that meeting between Cadsuane and Sorelia, they both want Rand to remember being human and one way is for him to remember Love.

 

They don't use that influence though. Aviendha never forces Rand to do something because the WOs want him to, and she never fishes for answers...

[mnwhiterose]

Maybe it clinches one of their visions from Rhuidean. After all, we don't know what they see.  But, he is the son of a Maiden, come back to them. For Aviendha to have a child by him finishes the circle and the Wise Ones believe this will create a super-child.

 

And yes, they are trying to tie Rand to the Aiel. They have been in the Three-fold land so long as part of a punishment. Rand is to bring them out and help them create a new world.  The Shaido can rot in the Three-fold Land as far as they are concerned. Which, they probably will. Or the Shaido will consider themselves the true Aiel and create another prophecy - maybe dealing with Rand's kids or descendants who will bring them out of the Three-fold land again. 

 

these people like their prophecies. Anyone else notice this?

[Master Norry]

The Shaido are going back to the Waste. Probably they will live in the old way, and they will do fine: fight, watch each other in sweat tents, and drink lots of oosquai. Sounds good, eh?

[Thor]

 

They wanted to have Avi be with Rand for the same reason Berelain wants to be with Rand, for Influence and control. I thought it was very obvious what they wanted, they are afraid that this Wetlander is going to destroy them, just like Moraine is both afraid of what Rand will do and hopeful. They are seeking to control an uncontrollable situation as best as they can. One way is the classic "woman seducing man bit" and by them saying she has succeded more then they realized was that Rand was falling for Avi and not just in lust with her.

 

They wanted Rand to care for their people and not just see them as a sea of spears or weapons to be broken on the slopes of Shayol Ghul.

 

I thought the wise ones motivations were quite transparent I believe they have even come out and said it several times as well. The clincher is when we have that meeting between Cadsuane and Sorelia, they both want Rand to remember being human and one way is for him to remember Love.

 

They don't use that influence though. Aviendha never forces Rand to do something because the WOs want him to, and she never fishes for answers...

 

actually there has been many times when the wise ones have instructed aviendha to use that influence, but aviendha has defied them thus far.

[Master Norry]

So for one she doesn't mind seducing him (even though she has promised to watch him for Elayne) but using the influence that it gains her...

[Luckers]

It's implied that she does indeed have a problem with seducing him, and manipulating him. My guess is that the Wise Ones knew this--there ultimate goal was to bind Rand to them, and they knew that would require a genuine bond.

 

So yes, i don't see a problem with any of that.

[Shoulderthumper]

And doesn't Rand reason that she couldn't have done that, by denying him even a kiss after "The Far Snows" (or something like it)?

But why would the Wise Ones want her to?

Rand reasons she isn't like one of Colavaere's women because seducing him is clearly not her intention. But the Wise Ones nevertheless intended for Aviendha to remind Rand of his blood, to have sympathy for the Aiel lest he carelessly use them as a weapon at Tarmon Gaidon to their destruction. What better way to do that than to have him be affectionate toward an Aiel woman and even accept her as wife. They must have foreseen something of this in their Dreaming just like Aviendha did in the ter'angreal. Early on one of the Wise Ones almost lets slip that she'd lay (the girl on him).

 

Actually I think they Wise One was about to say she would lay a bridal wreath at his feet to take him in better control. I am just listening to the audiobook of TSR.